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@Swagnarok
Well said!
Ironically, I agree with Trump on the Syria move
Posts
Total:
121
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@Greyparrot
Ugh, why didn't he just stick to his other reasons for the withdrawal? They were contendable. This was such a stupid thing to say. His attitude should be "I sympathize but this was necessary," not "who cares, you're people of low character anyway." Especially when those people have just done us a solid.Because the people stupid enough to not know a damn thing about Turkey and the Kurds need an explanation like that. Those people are easy to talk to.
So he fires off an unjustified insult on the people who have been on the frontlines fighting ISIS for us because... Americans are stupid? Too stupid to understand reasons like "in the long run our presence in the Middle East does more harm than good for both us and natives of the region"? So stupid the only thing that will penetrate our thick dumb skulls is "America good, Kurds bad"?
That is just sad.
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@Castin
Well, at least he didn't say Kurds good Turkey bad.
Or did he?
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@ebuc
Sorry, to answer your response to me:
I don't think vilifying Turkish culture and adding religious intolerance to this on top of everything else is going to help anything. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Remember that Turkey is our ally, too. The situation here is that two of our friends are fighting. One friend is much bigger and, at present, more aggressive than the other.
While the larger friend is the aggressor at the moment, he is still an ally, and it's not a good idea to antagonize and alienate him completely. We have to be more far-sighted than that. That's diplomacy for you.
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@Castin
Most people aren't going to understand that. They can only understand X good and X bad.
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@Greyparrot
I think right now he's somewhere around "Kurds bad, Turkey meh."Well, at least he didn't say Kurds good Turkey bad.Or did he?
Last I heard he'd slapped Turkey on the wrist for all the Kurd killin', levying sanctions and deploying Mike Pence to go over there to talk to 'em, but the effort seems rather half-hearted and obligatory. I think he finds it hard to sympathize with the Kurds because they're the ones his personal critics and political enemies are defending.
Most people aren't going to understand that. They can only understand X good and X bad.
THEN TELL ME WHAT HOPE THERE IS FOR HUMANITY, GREY. TELL ME THAT.
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@Castin
School vouchers.
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@Castin
I don't think vilifying Turkish culture and adding religious intolerance to this on top of everything else is going to help anything. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Post #37----Turkey has been turning away from sectarism ---Attorney Barrs kind of rreligous peoples--- to become more Islamic state.
...."Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the secular Turkish Republic that replaced the Islamic Ottoman Empire died in 1938,........Ataturk would not have been surprised: He was convinced that Islam in any form would be the ruin of the Turks.".....
Remember that Turkey is our ally, too. The situation here is that two of our friends are fighting. One friend is much bigger and, at present, more aggressive than the other.
Yes, a NATO ally who has not been codoned by NATO for the anillation of the Kurds in Turkey and Syria, or elsewhere ---Kurds who were USA's allies and lead the fight against ISIS. USA and especially Trump uses people for a specific purpose and then throws them under the bus.
While the larger friend is the aggressor at the moment, he is still an ally, and it's not a good idea to antagonize and alienate him completely. We have to be more far-sighted than that. That's diplomacy for you.
What Trump has done is to give the go ahead to kill allies who beat the hell out of ISIS.
Bad = ISIS
good = Kurds who fought ISIS on front lines
Bad = Islamic and less sectarian Turkey
Good = more sectartian and democratic Turkey
Bad = Trumps throwing Kurds under the bus of bad Turkey
Bad = Syrias Assasd
Bad = Russias Putin
Good = Putin and Assad assistance to Kurds
Bad = USA makes incorrect descission to abandon the ISIS fighting Kurds adn loose them to Putin/Assad
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@Swagnarok
I'm one of many who believes Iraq war was unneccesary and more about oil and ego than the false narrative that was put forward.
I'm sure that means you use very little of such, or otherwise find a specialized "oil made in USA only" dealer who sells it to you for higher prices.
Takes 100 million years of dinosaur poop swamp land to create 1 gal of gas, so yes, I think gas should cost way more and that is more so, since we have a greenhouse gases effect problem.
Ditto my above. Blood for oil is not my motto and never has been. Your confused and dont anything of signifcance about my life choices.
Even if you're not American, you still probably live in a society powered by Middle Eastern oil, made possible by, you guessed it, USA wars designed to keep the supply flowing.
Ditto my above
2} USA peoples did not want to get involved with Nazis either. I sure hope nobody in Europe gets butchered because USA does not want to get involved in Europe. Then Pearl Harbor occured and USA realizes that Japan and Hitler were on same page.
However bad the suffering and slaughter of peoples overseas, FDR had no right to force Americans to fight and die against their will to rectify the situation.
FDR ---and every USA president--- along with constitution via congress does have the legal right to send their citizens to die. Your confused.
If he wanted to help so badly he could've grabbed a rifle, hopped a plane, and wheeled himself to the Russian front lines. In that sense American involvement in WWII was only justified so far as an Axis victory would've been very bad for us in the long term.Now, today we have a volunteer force. But even then there's a general consensus nowadays that our troops are not 100% expendable and should only be endangered when the good of the nation counts on it.
I think we should have a draft military so as priviledged are side by side. As in the case of the Bosinan war I thought within our military those who felt a humanitarian need to go fight could volunteer for that mission and should be supported provided enough number of votes give them them the go-ahead.
The others in military who do not volunteer for any specific mission, can go with the 'sure hope no one gets butchered' approach and give their support in other ways.
Trump is withdrawing those forces now so I fail to see your point. Virtually everyone, myself included, does naturally sympathize with the Kurds. But their statehood is ultimately unsustainable anyways, and it would definitely not be in our best interests to go to war with Turkey, a crucial NATO ally, over the statehood of a regional minority group. Especially not a group whose state would be dominated by a communist party.
Kurds are being butchered because USA removed miltary forces from their bases ---that now Putin/Assad control--- and your policy is 'I sure hope nobodyd gets butchered'....duhd, to late.
Now, I will admit that Trump has made one serious blunder here. After announcing he wouldn't stand in the Turks's way he STILL went and supported sanctions against the anatolian state. And yet, if the Turks end up leaving us anyway over that then it'll have been for nothing. We've made our bed with the Turks already so let's lie on it.
Bad = ..."Trump has made one serious blunder here".. Duhh, you think? I think Putin/Assad happy to have those USA bases for themselves. And what is the plan for ISIS in all of the above. Oh yeah, there is none.
And? The only way to prevent this was to have toppled Assad back in 2011, or in any year since then, by outright invading Syria. Trump wasn't willing to do this, and neither was Obama.
Your diverging from the blunders of Trump{ sick-n-head orange man }.
This could have all been figured out in better ways while keeping our military and bases and ISIS in prision. Blunder is putting mildly.
...and we are left with 'sure hope nobody get butchered over there' policy. Do you really think that is what Sick Orange Man is saying also. ...'sure hope nobody gets butchered over there'...
(Also, you want to talk about butchering innocent people? The Obama administration helped.......Obama has 300,000+ Syrian deaths on his conscience, far more than anything Trump could even dream of.)
Typical of you type, lets talk about Obama, not Trump. You people are just as sick in the head as Trump is. Your Trumpist cultist who have place and continually support a dictator president, attorney general, sectary general, and Rudh Gulliani ...'Shadow Mobster style shadow governement'....
You and those above are the ones truly on the .."high horse of supieriority"... spiiting out horse poop to the immoral and mindless cult folllowers Trumpisms blunder after blunder after blunder.
Get real Swag, your living out Trumps childish immature immoral and sick brain and hope nobody gets butchered even has Trump encourages uneccessary violence to Kurds and others who or non-whites.
....'i'm so popular I could shoot somebody dead in the streets and nobody would care'....is a parraphrasing this narrcist nutcase youve aligne yourself with.
..'lets go grab some strange womans crotch, because were celibrities and they dont care'.......then we will just pay them off and lie about that.
..'lets have 80% turnover in white house senior officials and call it, only have the best people'......
USA is now close to becoming a chaotic banana republic of thugs ---instead of a democracy--- that is just what you Trumpist cult followers want. Sad and sick :--(
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@ebuc
Typical of you type, lets talk about Obama, not Trump.
You refuse to talk about how Obama's policies caused nearly a half million Syrian fatalities, and instead only bash Trump for mostly petty stuff, and yet you have the audacity to call me cultish.
Kurds are being butchered because USA removed miltary forces from their bases ---that now Putin/Assad control--- and your policy is 'I sure hope nobodyd gets butchered'....duhd, to late.
More to the point, people are getting butchered every day in Syria. This has been the case for the past 8+ years...But most of those who died before were Arabs and not Kurds so I guess that means you don't care because Kurdish lives matter more for whatever reason.
I think Putin/Assad happy to have those USA bases for themselves.
Those US bases in Syria did not exist before the civil war, the government whose country those bases are located in hasn't given us permission to be there, and the present Syrian government for so long as it exists has the right to choose Russia as its partner, something that it did long before Trump become President. Anything else?
I think we should have a draft military so as priviledged are side by side.
The draft would flood the military with millions upon millions of surplus people who would more or less be complete dead weight. They would be a drain on the defense budget and serve little productive purpose. In addition, these men would be taken out of the economy, which would contract sharply as a result.
But equally pressing, are you okay with ordinary Americans being made to die on account of the backroom deals or passing ideological fads of the neocons in Washington?
As in the case of the Bosinan war I thought within our military those who felt a humanitarian need to go fight could volunteer for that mission and should be supported provided enough number of votes give them them the go-ahead.
In theory, it wouldn't be unfair if we allowed Americans to go overseas and volunteer to fight in wars for the side they felt was in the right. But it's also not very practical for a number of reasons.
FDR ---and every USA president--- along with constitution via congress does have the legal right to send their citizens to die. Your confused.
Moral right, I meant. My bad.
Ditto my above. Blood for oil is not my motto and never has been. Your confused and dont anything of signifcance about my life choices.
Again, if you see benefit in your personal life from these "blood for oil" policies undertaken by the US government then what does it matter?
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@ebuc
Bad = Syrias Assasd
No
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@ebuc
Another thing:
You already accept that it's okay for women to kill their own babies--or, more charitably, simply to "let them die"--so as to avoid the bad of them being inconvenienced and experiencing career setbacks and societal disapproval. 60-70 million of such have been slaughtered since 1973, which is about as many people as the total death toll of WW2.
And yet you think it's okay to force unwilling men to die for complete strangers halfway around the world?
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@Swagnarok
The Vietnam and Bosian war made it clear to me, that;
1} the we should have a military draft, and manage that process in any way that meets all finanical etc criterial ---not your just say no to a draft system---,
2} via what ever voting process, those in the military who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, get to go in USA's name,
3} we should have not abruptly closed our bases used to fight ISIS and make way for butchering of Kurds --boy I sure hope that doesnt happen----, and maintain our present til sometime in the future we have an actuall plan developed by many minds in USA, not just Trumps sick mind spotaneous diplomacy with Erodgan,
4} wow, to have a choherent plan that would cause least amount of butchering to oour ISIS fighting allies, the Kurds ----nah, why waste any brain effort on that?-----,
5} who in USA military would have the courage and morals to go to those bases and actually maintain a presence untill the Kurdish issue can be dealt with in more diplomatic way ---not to mention actually humane way----, dont ask.
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@Swagnarok
You already accept that it's okay for women to kill their own babies---
Fetus/baby does not breath oxygen ergo an organism of the mother and you do not have moral capacity to make these distinctions between born-out baby and organism of mother, the fetus/baby. Come back to talk to me when you have mental and moral ability to make a simple distinction.
And yet you think it's okay to force unwilling men to die for complete strangers halfway around the world?
So now you conflating;
1} a USA adult military personnel ---kill the enemy or be killed---,with
2} any fetus/baby organism of any human mother ---choice of what to do with organism of my body---.
Come back and talk to me in a differrent thread ---on this above issue--- and stop distracting from Trumps great blunder in abandoning the Kurds without any consultation except with Turkey ---and maybe Putin?---.
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@Greyparrot
School vouchers.
... I quit.
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@Castin
Hugs
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@Greyparrot
Aw. Now I can't hate you for being my sociopolitical opposite. And every American lives for hating their sociopolitical opposites. It is known.
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@Castin
Only the deplorables,
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@ebuc
I feel like you're missing my point. They're not wrong because they're Islamic, ebuc. They're wrong because they're invading and destroying.
Trump uses people for a specific purpose and then throws them under the bus.
Well, yes. He does that. I can't keep track of all the people he's fired or turned on, it's rather dizzying. He tries to run the government like a business, where the CEO has near-absolute power and if he isn't getting what he wants he just fires people.
What Trump has done is to give the go ahead to kill allies who beat the hell out of ISIS.
That is also true.
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@Castin
BTW there's a cease fire.
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@Castin
Honestly, I don't know Exactly what the Warhawks wanted Trump to do.
A) Pull a Benghazi and allow the 26 troops to die by not pulling them out.
B) Start a war with Turkey.
C) Start a war with Syria.
Pick one or more of these, please.
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@Greyparrot
BTW there's a cease fire.
wish I had stock in adult diapers, I bet the democrats pissed themselves. This only has to last until the next election, if it does that's a HUGE win and a middle finger to everyone who as against this move. This is so much better than "reality" tv.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Another bad move by "scandal-free" Obama, who plopped a base down in Syria without permission and extended a civil war there just to score some funding from the military-industrial complex.
So much blood on Obama's hands, you have to wonder how he sleeps soundly.
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@Greyparrot
he probably sleeps well in his multi-million dollars homes, protected by walls, so much irony.
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@Castin
@Greyparrot
A) Pull a Benghazi and allow the 26 troops to die by not pulling them out.
Using Lybian rebel terroist as analogy to a member of NATO { Turkey } is like Swagnok and others, who do not have mental capacity to make distinction between a no-breathing fetus/baby i the womb, and a breathing baby outsided of the womb.
There is not a 1:1 correlation existent in the above except in their imaginary playpen world of blocks.
B) Start a war with Turkey.
Are there any precedents for a NATO member going to war with another NATO member?
C) Start a war with Syria.
So USA has bases in Syria to fight ISIS along side the lead people in fighting ISIS, the Kurds.
And no one is pressing{ threatening } to attack those bases { 2000 troops }. In fact, with smart diplomatic strategy we could had more troops and included in our NATO ally, if the Turks and Kurds did not want to kill each other.
So we have{ had } bases in Troops in Syria, and we have no bases or troops in Iran. Yet most of the immoral Trumpist cult-religion-of-dishoner want to jump off on Iran.
The immoral Trumpist cultist have created a violent crisis in Kurdish towns in Syria and their motto is ..'sure hope nobody gets butchered'...over there. If there is no petroleum involved, then were out of here faster than cheetah.
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@Greyparrot
Honestly, I don't know Exactly what the Warhawks wanted Trump to do.A) Pull a Benghazi and allow the 26 troops to die by not pulling them out.B) Start a war with Turkey.C) Start a war with Syria.Pick one or more of these, please.
Oh, I doubt they would have died. Killing American troops and starting a war with the U.S. is suicide, and Turkey knows it. If Trump had left the troops there, I don't think Turkey would have invaded.
Regardless, you're right that those lives were at some risk. But how many lives will now be lost because of all the ISIS members who have been unleashed back into the world? How many more terrorist plots can now be restarted, how many citizens of the free world will perish as a result of all the progress we just lost in one stroke?
Is it really a tribute to our soldiers overseas to undo all their work and everything they and the Kurds have been fighting for? To un-save the lives they've been trying to save, and ensure that good men died for nothing?
It's always hard to leave men out there at risk. I get that. But I have to say that I would have sent reinforcements and held the line. ISIS is simply too great a threat to the free world.
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@Greyparrot
BTW, there is not. Erodgan only slows his attack in hopes Kurds will leave their homes and towns more willingly.BTW there's a cease fire.
GP and D-piratate see no ethnic cleansings, hear no ethnic cleansing nor speak no ethnic cleansing.
Typical of Trumpist cult followers. Their nose eyes and ears are full of Trumps solid waste deposits. Sad :--(
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
So ethnic cleansing with napalm and white phospherous is now what I'm hearing. Brings back memories of Sadam Hussines ethinic cleansing of kurds.
Duh, no wonder D-priate and GP cant address ethnic cleansing by Erodgan
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@ebuc
is that happening under the cease fire?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Yeah, pretty much. In exchange for the "ceasefire" the Kurds must abandon certain fortified positions, which'll just make it easier for Turkey to advance. Turkey doesn't believe that they're dealing with another country so they feel no obligation whatsoever to honor even the tiniest letter of their agreement.
Plus, they're trying to resettle some 3 million Syrian refugees, which'll go a whole lot smoother for them if the Kurds abandon their homes.