Animals and the Afterlife

Author: ludofl3x

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#31
Tradesecret
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@ludofl3x
After fourteen years, on Friday, I had to put my dog down. I will miss her, but it had to be done. She was the greatest dog on the planet. I've had enough maudlin moments over the weekend, with many I'm sure still to come, but it gave me a chance to explain to my 11 year old that life is like the flame on a candle, when it goes out, it doesn't go anywhere, it's just gone. Of course, so many people believe in the afterlife around here. To my Christian friends, many I'm sure had dogs, do you believe animals go to heaven?

I think the answer has to be "no". First off, they don't have souls, as far as the bible seems to be concerned. Second of all, they don't know Jesus, and that's the only way into heaven. WHat do you think, and why do you think it?

Do animals, then, go to hell? I mean they don't believe in Jesus. They have no souls to torture though. So then, do they just get annihilated?
I think it is vexed question.  Yet, I think there are many examples of animals in heaven, even if they are metaphorical only. the Angels in Revelation come from heaven riding on horses for instance. 

I think another important factor which many Christians don't consider is that the bible very often puts heaven and earth together as a pairing. For instance - Genesis 1 tells us that God made heaven and earth. And in Revelation we are told that God will make a new heaven and a new earth.  I take it means that the place we go to when we die today will not be the same heaven that God is making new. but this also probably means that the earth we live on today will be not be the same - but that there will be a new earth. 

One of the distinctives about Christianity that is peculiar to it is that heaven comes to earth, not the other way around. The bible talks of God coming down to collect men - not men trying to find their way to heaven. Other religions seem to spend their time finding ways to make God happy - or to appease him or some miracle way of getting to heaven.  Christianity is unique in that God comes to earth - and collects his people - not to necessarily take them back to heaven - but to redeem and restore them in a heaven which is really is on earth. 

Think of the Garden of Eden. It is often referred to as  a picture of heaven. Yet it is Heaven on earth. Think of the New Jerusalem which comes to earth. It also is  a picture of heaven on earth. Why would God make a new heaven and a new earth? Why an earth if no one was going to be living on it? 

That does not make sense.  I think heaven is really going to be a lot like earth anyway. just a perfect one. I don't know whether animals have souls or not. I don't really sense that they do - yet - I am not sure that you require a soul to be in heaven. Take angels for instance. We do not know if they have souls. 

The bigger question for you however is - would you want your pet to go to heaven if you are not going to be there? Surely the state of your eternal affairs are more important than that of an animal? 
#32
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@ludofl3x
A very good question Ludo.

The Bible doesn't seem clear on the afterlife of animals. There are references to animals in heaven in the Bible that may be more symbolic in nature, but it is possible that animals that lived on earth are taken to heaven. What is clear is that animals in heaven would be living in absolute peace and harmony.

But even if not, I'm very confident that your pet is in complete peace right now.
#33
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@Tradesecret
@ludofl3x



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Tradesecret,

Addressing your comical and bible ignorant post #31


YOUR IGNORANT QUOTE #1:  “Yet, I think there are many examples of animals in heaven, even if they are metaphorical only”

By the definition of being metaphorical, then they wouldn’t be the known "pets" but something else that cannot be a "pet," get it? Huh?  When regarding many example of "pets" in heaven, they cannot be symbolic for the sake of its previous owner wanting to see them in their earthly natural form upon their arrival to Heaven.  Understand?   ................  Can anyone loan a Logic 101 Book to Tradesecret???!



YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #2:  "The Angels in Revelation come from heaven riding on horses for instance." 

Yes, they most certainly do ride horses, where your blatant biblical ignorance has to end at this point.  Tell the rest of the story, where these angels are following the serial killer Yahweh/Jesus of the Triune Doctrine,  that you still deny exists at the expense of laughter towards you!  Therefore, upon Jesus’ 2nd Coming in the book of Revelation, He is riding a white horse with a sword in His mouth, followed by 2 million angels to brutally murder none believers on earth with plagues, fire, torturing them for 5 months with beasts with scorpion tails, and other horrific ways to murder them. Way to go ever loving and forgiving Jesus the Christ, praise!

Subsequent to the brutal murders that Jesus enacted, and while Jesus is wiping the blood from his garment, then the true believers that remain will hold a party and give gifts to one another. We can only wonder in what gifts they will give to each other; maybe some anxiety pills to their brethren to help them calm down after watching Jesus brutally murdering His creation as mentioned above that did not believe in Him? Yes? (Revelation chapters 1, 9 and 11)



YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #3:  "I take it means that the place we go to when we die today will not be the same heaven that God is making new. but this also probably means that the earth we live on today will be not be the same - but that there will be a new earth."

Your quotes of “I take it means that a place we go …” but this also probably means that the earth we live ……”  are laughable wishful thinking child like notions and are NOT biblical absolutes which Christianity must be built upon!  Obviously your PRESBIE church allows you to make up your own meaning to bible narratives, where once again, you are guilty of the following passage:  “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” (2 Timothy 4:3). YOU WILL NOT DISPARAGE CHRISTIANITY WITH YOUR SUBJECTIVE SATANIC WISHFUL THINKING, UNDERSTAND, MINION OF SATAN?!



YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #4:   "Other religions seem to spend their time finding ways to make God happy - or to appease him or some miracle way of getting to heaven." 

Your hypocritical stance is duly noted once again at your laughable expense. Whereas the following passages shows that you were wrong once again, in that you are to make the serial killer Yahweh/Jesus happy and to appease Him. What’s new with your bible ignorance? NOTHING!

“But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.” (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

“When a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.” (Proverbs 16:7)

“And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.” (1 John 3:22)

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” (Hebrews 13:16)

TRADESECRET, you can remove one foot to insert the other AGAIN! LOL!!!



Continued at your expense >>>>>>


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#34
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@Tradesecret



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Tradesecret,

Addressing your comical and bible ignorant post #31.


YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #5   "I am not sure that you require a soul to be in heaven."

TRADESECRET, you must like the taste of your feet, because you continually remove one foot to insert the other on your every wrongful notion relative to the bible!  Priceless stupidity on your part that you do not fix for some reason.


“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28). 

As the inspired words of Jesus state above, if one needs a soul to be completely destroyed in Hell, then one most certainly needs a soul to enter heaven, HELLO, anybody home today?!


“Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

As shown explicitly in the above passage, one needs a blameless soul along with a spirit and body to enter Heaven at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christs eventful return. 

Tradesecret, wipe the proverbial egg from your face once again. :(




YOUR JUST IGNORANT QUOTE ALTOGETHER: The bigger question for you however is - would you want your pet to go to heaven if you are not going to be there?

Are you alluding to the fact that ludofl3x will not be going to our 1400 square mile Heaven with its 65 foot high walls? Huh? What do you know that ludofl3x doesn’t?  Yes, Jesus’ salvation is faulty to the core because Jesus admits that only a few will make it past the Pearly Gates. (Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 22:14)



TRADESECRET, if I can be “Frank” with you, and you can remain the Bible ignorant "Tradesecret," it is easily shown by you that you are a fish out of water within this Religion Forum.  You Satanically rewrite the bible ad infinitum, your wishful thinking is synonymous with “ I want the bible my way, instead of Jesus’ way.” You are still ashamed of your church affiliation, where I do not blame you in being a Hell bound PRESBIE!  You have committed the Unpardonable Sin in its TRUE meaning. Therefore, have you ever thought of residing in a Children’s Christian forum where you will be more at home with your biblical ignorance, equal to the mind set of equally dumbfounded Christian children relative to the bible?

Listen, I truly feel sorry for you, therefore, I found a Children’s Christian Forum for you to try out, okay? Don’t worry if the “kids” know more about the bible than you do at the start, but hang in there where you may catch up to them, okay?  You're welcomed.

KIDS CHRISTIAN FORUM FOR TRADESECRET:
https://christianforumsite.com/threads/childrens-devotional.26761/


SHORT PRAYER:  " I am sorry Jesus, but the Bible buffoon Tradesecret has returned after my bible beating that I administered to him  in our link regarding your condemning entire cities to dreadful deaths in Hell. As you can plainly see, Tradesecret must have had enough time off to heal from my patent pending Bible Slapping Technique that I learned from you, praise!  Therefore, since he is still healing, let's give him a chance before we lay the Bible Slap Down on him once again. Thanking you in advance Jesus, praise!"



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#35
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“Yet, I think there are many examples of animals in heaven, even if they are metaphorical only”

By the definition of being metaphorical, then they wouldn’t be the known "pets"
I never said pets. I mentioned animals. I am surprised you understand the word metaphorical given it is more than two syllables.

  "The Angels in Revelation come from heaven riding on horses for instance." 

Irrelevant to respond to the next two paragraphs and they don't add to the topic. 


"I take it means that the place we go to when we die today will not be the same heaven that God is making new. but this also probably means that the earth we live on today will be not be the same - but that there will be a new earth."

Your quotes of “I take it means that a place we go …” but this also probably means that the earth we live ……”  are laughable wishful thinking child like notions and are NOT biblical absolutes which Christianity must be built upon! 
I am not sure how your response is helpful.  I think you say you don't agree, yet you don't explain why nor what is an alternative. You really are short on arguments aren't you?


  "Other religions seem to spend their time finding ways to make God happy - or to appease him or some miracle way of getting to heaven." 

Whereas the following passages shows that you were wrong once again, in that you are to make the serial killer Yahweh/Jesus happy and to appease Him.

“But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.” (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

“When a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.” (Proverbs 16:7)

“And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.” (1 John 3:22)

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” (Hebrews 13:16)
So, you do think that salvation is by works. OK. I hold to the view that God saves us. Pleasing God is not the same appeasing him.  We don't need to do things to get to heaven. God comes to us. 




#36
Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
  "I am not sure that you require a soul to be in heaven."

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28). 

Great post Brother. It totally agrees with my position. It of course is talking about humans, neither animals nor angels.  I notice you omitted to discuss angels. Do you think angels have souls? If so, what biblical reference do you use? 


As the inspired words of Jesus state above, if one needs a soul to be completely destroyed in Hell, then one most certainly needs a soul to enter heaven. 
Yes, I agree with those words, but they refer only to humans. My point was that I am not sure that a soul is required to get into heaven, when you are not a human. This topic is about animals. 

“Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

As shown explicitly in the above passage, one needs a blameless soul along with a spirit and body to enter Heaven at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christs eventful return. 
Yes, and this certainly applies to humans, the question is what about animals or angels, gee or even God. Does God have a soul? And if he does not, then you by your logic have said that God cannot go to heaven. Duh! 


The bigger question for you however is - would you want your pet to go to heaven if you are not going to be there?

Are you alluding to the fact that ludofl3x will not be going to our 1400 square mile Heaven with its 65 foot high walls? Huh? What do you know that ludofl3x doesn’t?  Yes, Jesus’ salvation is faulty to the core because Jesus admits that only a few will make it past the Pearly Gates. (Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 22:14)
ludofl3x indicated in his opening post that he was not a believer. And that he was an atheist. I was not judging or prejudging - merely using his own reference as a means of considering the future. 


it is easily shown by you that you are a fish out of water within this Religion Forum. 
That may well be easy to show. But not by you and not by the dumb things you continue to say. 

You Satanically rewrite the bible ad infinitum, your wishful thinking is synonymous with “ I want the bible my way, instead of Jesus’ way.”

Not once have I rewritten the bible. You need to demonstrate otherwise. It is your assertion and I deny it. 

You are still ashamed of your church affiliation, where I do not blame you in being a Hell bound PRESBIE! 
I am not ashamed of my church. Nor is the Presbyterian Church hell bound. 

You have committed the Unpardonable Sin in its TRUE meaning. 
LOL! I have not committed the unpardonable sin. You are ignorant of the doctrine and that was demonstrated in our last discussion that you ran away with your tail between your legs. 


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#37
ludofl3x
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@Tradesecret
The bigger question for you however is - would you want your pet to go to heaven if you are not going to be there? Surely the state of your eternal affairs are more important than that of an animal? 

THis and the thing about angels were the only things you mentioned that had anything to do with the question, and neither one of them really answered it at all. I don't believe in any heaven at all. What part of the bible leaves you enough room to doubt that souls are required to be in it? As far as I can tell, it's EXCLUSIvELY souls. If no souls, then the tomato plants that died in my garden due to over-wet soil are in heaven?
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#38
ludofl3x
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@RoderickSpode
The Bible doesn't seem clear on the afterlife of animals. There are references to animals in heaven in the Bible that may be more symbolic in nature, but it is possible that animals that lived on earth are taken to heaven. What is clear is that animals in heaven would be living in absolute peace and harmony.

But even if not, I'm very confident that your pet is in complete peace right now.

What passages make you say that it's 'possible' that animals that lived here are taken there? Do you subscribe to aniimals having souls, or do you take Tradesecret's position that maybe you can get in without a soul? I thank you for the kind thoughts nonetheless, but you and I are confident of exactly the same thing: my dog is no longer alive, and she's not suffering anymore :). I'm confident she lived a good life and that's the best comfort there can be. 
#39
Stronn
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@ludofl3x
Sorry for your loss. Losing a long-term pet is like losing a family member.

There is actually a much b bigger source of cognitive dissonance for Christians, however.  Namely, not all of their loved ones will be in heaven. some few will  die not a accepting Jesus. How can heaven be a perfect place with limitless joy if all your loved ones are not there?


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#40
ludofl3x
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@Stronn
Couldn't agree more. I've actually had a topic on that very matter, but few Christians participated. 

#41
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@Tradesecret


TRADESECRET,

Your problem is the fact that you think everyone else is as bible ignorant as you are, which is shown not to be the case by me and others on a continued basis. You continue to show DebateArt that you are vying to be the number 1 bible ignorant FAKE Christian on this forum, bar none! In essence, you are who you pretend to be.



YOUR RUNNING SCARED QUOTE: “I never said pets. I mentioned animals. I am surprised you understand the word metaphorical given it is more than two syllables.”

Barring your running scared child like ad hominem, and unfortunately for you, I do understand the term “metaphorical” at the expense of your ineptness again where you obviously didn't understand the term by viewing your out of context quote.  I mentioned PETS because this is the gist of the thread by ludofl3x, GET IT?  Therefore I left out animals to differentiate us from pets because humans are animals, GET IT?  

You left out the FACT that you were made the continued fool in using the term “metaphorical”  in your ever so wanting inept statement.  I wonder why? It’s because Jesus and I own your bible ignorance and lack of English understanding by using the term "metaphorical" in a wrong way as shown! Whoops,  LOL!



YOUR RUNNING AWAY QUOTE: “Irrelevant to respond to the next two paragraphs and they don't add to the topic.”

Are you to SCARED and EMBARRASSED to respond to Jesus’ 2nd coming and His bloody ramifications thereof regarding His horrific MURDERING of none believers on earth? Huh?  Why am I not surprised that you would RUN AWAY from this scenario, especially with you being a FAKE Christian to begin with, who now puts his little boy fingers in his ears as shouts; “la la la la la la la, I don’t want to see this about Jesus being a serial killer, la la la la la, I don't want to talk about this, la la la la! la  I am being made the bible ignorant fool again la la la la la la!

You are a laughable FAKE Christian in “name only” of which I will continue to bring forth your Satanic modus operandi to this forum in the future, understand? Don't worry, as shown, you cannot be prepared for what is forthcoming at your expense.




Continued at your laughable expense again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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#42
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret



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TRADESECRET,

This specific post has to be a "stand alone" to explicitly show DebateArt your complete biblical ignorance upon this topic. Sorry. 


YOUR BIBILE IGNORANT QUOTE WHERE YOU SAY "WORKS" ARE NOT NEEDED FOR SALVATION:  "So, you do think that salvation is by works. OK. I hold to the view that God saves us. Pleasing God is not the same appeasing him.  We don't need to do things to get to heaven. God comes to us." 

Oh my, where do I start with you once again. Since I already made you the bible fool when I had shown you bible verses, in my post #33, that we had to please Jesus that contradicted your continuing bible ignorance where you said we did not need to please Jesus, you continue to bury yourself because in this instance, "WORKS" are needed to enter Heaven, whereas you say they are not!  BLASPHEME AGAIN BY YOU!

Tradesecret, I have to ask you, where does your blatant bible ignorance stop?!


JESUS’ INSPIRED WORDS (2 Peter 1:20-21) STATE THE FOLLOWING:  “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2: 14-17)

Let me go real slow for you, okay? There is no need for your Satanic and insidious spin doctoring relative to the passage above to save further embarrassment, because faith that does not result in deeds is a faith that is utterly useless, ineffectual for salvation and in fact dead.  In the final analysis, James 2: 14-17 is about as plain and simple as can be in the fact that faith alone is insufficient for justification of Salvation, but the act of works must accompany faith to be truly justified to enter Heaven! 2+2=4.

Do you understand Tradesecret, or do I have to get my neighbors 2nd grader to come over and explain it to you? Huh? Which course do you want to take in this instance?



JESUS SAID (2 Peter 1:20-21) THESE ADDITIONAL PASSAGES RELATIVE TO WORKS MUST BE NEEDED FOR SALVATION!

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12)

“Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”(2 Corinthians 11:15)

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. (1 Peter 1:17)

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2:14, 17, 20, 24, 26)

“I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”  (Revelation 2:23)

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.”  (Matthew 16.27)

It is duly noted that your PRESBIE church spews forth its ungodly Devil Speak, and you are there to swallow it verbatim. Subsequently, then you have the audacity to tell Jesus that WORKS are not in the equation for Salvation!  How ungodly can you get in front of the membership of DebateArt Religion forum?! 



TRADESECRET, TELL THIS FORUM, DO YOU WANT TO CALL JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS ABOVE AS LIES REGARDING THAT HE SAYS "WORKS" ARE NEEDED FOR SALVATION, WHEREAS, YOUR DEVIL SPEAK SAYS "WORKS" ARE NOT NEEDED IN YOUR INITAL POST ABOVE? WATCH YOUR STEP ON THIS ONE, DONT' BE SCARED, GET IT? HUH?



Continued at your laughable expense again >>>>>>>>>>>>>
#43
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret



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TRADESECRET,


YOUR QUOTE:  “Do you think angels have souls? If so, what biblical reference do you use?”

Let me use your quote in return, we are talking about animals, NOT angels, get it?



AGAIN, YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE REGARDING THE FACT OF NEEDING A SOUL TO ENTER HEAVEN:   Yes, I agree with those words, but they refer only to humans. My point was that I am not sure that a soul is required to get into heaven, when you are not a human. This topic is about animals. 

It matters not whether an animal (Pet) has a soul or not, therefore, what part of the following passages WITHIN THIS THREAD didn't you understand regarding animals, aka, pets, will be Heaven bound upon their demise? Huh?  


“Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD.” (Psalm 36:6)

“And ALL FLESH shall see the salvation of God.'" (Luke 3:6 )

“Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust and to dust all return. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 )


Tradesecret, now wipe the egg from your face once again in front of the membership, but don't HIDE, because I am not done with you!




YOUR NON SEQUITUR QUOTE RELATIVE TO NEEDING A BLAMELESS SOUL FOR HEAVEN:  “Yes, and this certainly applies to humans, the question is what about animals or angels, gee or even God. Does God have a soul? And if he does not, then you by your logic have said that God cannot go to heaven. Duh! 

Save your non-sequiturs for your equally dumbfounded FAKE Christians, understood?  The serial killer Yahweh/Jesus is in Heaven to begin with before He made His JEWISH Creation, therefore your child like stance of asking whether God needs a soul is comical, and where you don’t have enough sense to feel embarrassed about your nondescript sophomoric statement  Laughable!




YOUR SQUEAMISH RUNAWAY IN SHOWING THAT YOU ARE A FISH OUT OF WATER IN THIS FORUM: “That may well be easy to show. But not by you and not by the dumb things you continue to say.“

You only perceive them to be dumb things, but in turn, these statements directed towards you are biblical AXIOMS that you either cannot address, or where you run away from them with your continuous barrage of child like inept statements!  I understand that you cannot stand your ground in these scenarios, because your perceived knowledge goes wanting and does not allow you too!  Priceless admittance on your part! Thank you!




YOUR LIE ABOUT YOU REWRITING THE BIBLE: “Not once have I rewritten the bible. You need to demonstrate otherwise. It is your assertion and I deny it.”

Quick to the point to save you further embarrassment again, when you proffer CONTINUOUS subjective and wishful thinking statements like: “I take it means that a place we go …”  “but this also probably means that the earth we live ……” yada, yada, yada, and then expound upon your subjective opinions as actual scripture, of which they are not, THEN YOU ARE IN FACT TRYING TO REWRITE THE BIBLE,  GET IT, MINION OF SATAN?!  H-E-L-L-O?




YOUR OUTRIGHT LYING QUOTE ABOUT YOUR SATANIC CHURCH: “I am not ashamed of my church. Nor is the Presbyterian Church hell bound.”

Then why did I have to pull teeth to get an answer of what church affiliation that you belonged to?  Why did you continually hide from it in our previous discussions, where you even admitted that if you told me, I would use it for “canon fodder” against you!  This alone gives credence to your church having aspects worthy of embarrassment!  Priceless admittance on your part!

Therefore, you not only were embarrassed about your PRESBIE church, in which you should be, but you could not defend it as well that goes directly against Jesus' words! "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)  How utterly embarrassing for you once again in front of the membership and the eyes of Jesus! (Hebrews 4:13)




YOUR LYING QUOTE IN YOU BELIEVING THAT YOU DID NOT COMMIT THE UNPARDONABLE SIN:  “I have not committed the unpardonable sin. You are ignorant of the doctrine and that was demonstrated in our last discussion that you ran away with your tail between your legs. 

No, I am not ignorant of this doctrine, and I did not run away, where you perceived that you were not guilty of this act IN YOUR COPY AND PASTE vain refutation.  I gave you direct BIBLICAL axioms in why you have committed the Unpardonable Sin that easily buried your copy and paste laughable refutation. Therefore, your existence upon this forum is all for naught because you blasphemed Jesus the Christ within His Triune Doctrine, of which YOU RUN AWAY FROM THIS FACT as continuously shown by you!  



Seriously, it truly pains me to show you to be the most bible ignorant FAKE Christians on DebateArt Religion Forum, and at the same time, you actually THINK you’re a Christian, NOT! What did I expect from a PRESBIE mind set? LOL


TRADESECRET, YOU ARE EXCUSED FOR NOW, THAT IS, UNTIL YOU REMOVE ONE FOOT TO INSERT THE OTHER AGAIN IN THE NAME OF SATAN!





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#44
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@ludofl3x
The bigger question for you however is - would you want your pet to go to heaven if you are not going to be there? Surely the state of your eternal affairs are more important than that of an animal? 

THis and the thing about angels were the only things you mentioned that had anything to do with the question, and neither one of them really answered it at all. I don't believe in any heaven at all. What part of the bible leaves you enough room to doubt that souls are required to be in it? As far as I can tell, it's EXCLUSIvELY souls. If no souls, then the tomato plants that died in my garden due to over-wet soil are in heaven?


Fair call. I suppose I was speaking into the air about such matters.  I am sorry about your pet though but it would have been a bonding experience with your daughter as you discussed it with her. 

As far as souls go - I think souls apply to humans only. There is no talk of souls for animals nor of angels. Angels are in heaven. Animals - is difficult to know. tomato plants - why not? I am not convinced that heaven is only exclusively for things with souls. I see no reason why plants and animals are excluded from heaven. How exactly that would look I have no idea. 

Biblically speaking - if the Garden of Eden is a picture of heaven. it contained both trees and animals and insects. 
#45
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@BrotherDThomas
“I never said pets. I mentioned animals. I am surprised you understand the word metaphorical given it is more than two syllables.”

I mentioned PETS because this is the gist of the thread by ludofl3x.  Therefore I left out animals to differentiate us from pets because humans are animals.  
Ok. You understand pets to be animals but you do not consider humans as pets; although you are ok with humans being slaves which is worse than pets. 

I used the word metaphorical because animals are referred to metaphorical. Yet I accept that others do not necessarily see the horses as metaphorical, you for instance are a literalist. 



“Irrelevant to respond to the next two paragraphs and they don't add to the topic.”

Are you to SCARED and EMBARRASSED to respond to Jesus’ 2nd coming.

No not at all. It really is irrelevant to this discussion on animals in heaven. I have no reason to be embarrassed.  

#46
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@BrotherDThomas
"So, you do think that salvation is by works. OK. I hold to the view that God saves us. Pleasing God is not the same appeasing him.  We don't need to do things to get to heaven. God comes to us." 

 "WORKS" are needed to enter Heaven, whereas you say they are not!  
No you are wrong. We are saved by grace not by works lest anyone boast. Ephesians 2:8-9. 

“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2: 14-17)

Yes, James makes that comment.  His point is not that we need works to earn salvation - but that true faith is always accompanied by works. As Paul puts it elsewhere, we are saved unto good works.  We cannot please God. This is the point of the entire gospel. You should try reading the bible rather than posting other people's works. 


In the final analysis, James 2: 14-17 is about as plain and simple as can be in the fact that faith alone is insufficient for justification of Salvation, but the act of works must accompany faith to be truly justified to enter Heaven! 2+2=4.
Explain the thief on the cross next to Jesus, then whom Jesus forgave and who then entered paradise. Salvation belongs to the Lord. It does not belong to man. God does not need us. We need him.  the theif had no time for good works. Would you contradict Jesus? Of course you would. 


“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12)

“Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”(2 Corinthians 11:15)

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. (1 Peter 1:17)

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2:14, 17, 20, 24, 26)

“I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”  (Revelation 2:23)

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.”  (Matthew 16.27)

Every one of those verses agrees with me. We are saved by grace, through faith. But we are saved unto good works. Yet, our good works wont get us to heaven just like our bad works wont. Why? Because it is GOD who saves, and not we ourselves. 



#47
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@BrotherDThomas
“Do you think angels have souls? If so, what biblical reference do you use?”

Let me use your quote in return, we are talking about animals, NOT angels, get it?
We were talking about heaven and what qualifies something to enter heaven. Yes, the post initially is about animals, but when someone (like you) suggests that animals do not go to heaven because they do not have souls, then it broadens the topic to the discussion about what qualifies something to be in heaven. You want to ignore this - fine with me. 


  Yes, I agree with those words, but they refer only to humans. My point was that I am not sure that a soul is required to get into heaven, when you are not a human. This topic is about animals. 

It matters not whether an animal (Pet) has a soul or not, therefore, what part of the following passages WITHIN THIS THREAD didn't you understand regarding animals, aka, pets, will be Heaven bound upon their demise? Huh?  


“Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD.” (Psalm 36:6)

“And ALL FLESH shall see the salvation of God.'" (Luke 3:6 )

“Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust and to dust all return. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 )

Thanks for the verses. I am not sure that the first one is talking about heaven. It is more general than that, The second verse - "all flesh" might include animals, I don't know. The third verse - is not talking about heaven - it is talking about death and that everything dies - it is not talking about heaven or hell for that matter. 


  “Yes, and this certainly applies to humans, the question is what about animals or angels, gee or even God. Does God have a soul? And if he does not, then you by your logic have said that God cannot go to heaven. Duh! 


I notice you chose to ignore the question - but use evasive and ad hominin language. 


“That may well be easy to show. But not by you and not by the dumb things you continue to say.“

You only perceive them to be dumb things, but in turn, these statements directed towards you are biblical AXIOMS that you either cannot address, or where you run away from them with your continuous barrage of child like inept statements!  I understand that you cannot stand your ground in these scenarios, because your perceived knowledge goes wanting and does not allow you too!  Priceless admittance on your part! Thank you!

Brother DT, your words are your words. They are for the most part shallow and nonsensical. I have answered and addressed every one of your comments to me that I think are worth replying too. You are the one who ran away in the other topic - because your arguments were shown to be false and shallow. 


YOUR LIE ABOUT YOU REWRITING THE BIBLE: “Not once have I rewritten the bible. You need to demonstrate otherwise. It is your assertion and I deny it.”

Quick to the point to save you further embarrassment again, when you proffer CONTINUOUS subjective and wishful thinking statements like: “I take it means that a place we go …”  “but this also probably means that the earth we live ……” yada, yada, yada, and then expound upon your subjective opinions as actual scripture, of which they are not, THEN YOU ARE IN FACT TRYING TO REWRITE THE BIBLE,  GET IT, MINION OF SATAN?!  H-E-L-L-O?




YOUR OUTRIGHT LYING QUOTE ABOUT YOUR SATANIC CHURCH: “I am not ashamed of my church. Nor is the Presbyterian Church hell bound.”

Then why did I have to pull teeth to get an answer of what church affiliation that you belonged to?  Why did you continually hide from it in our previous discussions, where you even admitted that if you told me, I would use it for “canon fodder” against you!  This alone gives credence to your church having aspects worthy of embarrassment!  Priceless admittance on your part!

Therefore, you not only were embarrassed about your PRESBIE church, in which you should be, but you could not defend it as well that goes directly against Jesus' words! "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)  How utterly embarrassing for you once again in front of the membership and the eyes of Jesus! (Hebrews 4:13)




YOUR LYING QUOTE IN YOU BELIEVING THAT YOU DID NOT COMMIT THE UNPARDONABLE SIN:  “I have not committed the unpardonable sin. You are ignorant of the doctrine and that was demonstrated in our last discussion that you ran away with your tail between your legs. 

No, I am not ignorant of this doctrine, and I did not run away, where you perceived that you were not guilty of this act IN YOUR COPY AND PASTE vain refutation.  I gave you direct BIBLICAL axioms in why you have committed the Unpardonable Sin that easily buried your copy and paste laughable refutation. Therefore, your existence upon this forum is all for naught because you blasphemed Jesus the Christ within His Triune Doctrine, of which YOU RUN AWAY FROM THIS FACT as continuously shown by you!  



Seriously, it truly pains me to show you to be the most bible ignorant FAKE Christians on DebateArt Religion Forum, and at the same time, you actually THINK you’re a Christian, NOT! What did I expect from a PRESBIE mind set? LOL

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#48
ludofl3x
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@Tradesecret
Biblically speaking - if the Garden of Eden is a picture of heaven. it contained both trees and animals and insects. 

But it's not a picture of heaven: it was purportedly here on earth, and god didn't live here, and man was given 'dominion' over all of earthly existence. That's not at all like heaven. 
#49
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@ludofl3x
//and man was given 'dominion' over all of earthly existence//

where the dominion is given to you ? can you tell us ? huh? since when and where the dominion was given to you ? you just tell us that thing.

is it your land ? The America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc ? are these land belong to europeans ? have your forefathers created that ?

and who has given you its dominion ? you have stolen it ( and you are the damn  theives not even gentlemen ) but still fun is amazing here.

its dominion is given to earth man, and it is not given to anyone. and you are the damn theives. ( understand  that ? )
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#50
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@chustave
its dominion is given to earth man, and it is not given to anyone. and you are the damn theives. ( understand  that ? )

I can honestly respond no, I do not understand what you're talking about. That man was given dominion over the animals and land and plants of the earth is pretty standard Christian doctrine drawn from Genesis. Not all Christians see it the same way, big shock there, but the ones that do have some scriptural basis for doing so. I don't believe in any of that, though, I am an atheist who sees humanity as just another organism. I'll chalk up your post to being new. Otherwise I'm not sure we disagree at all.  
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@ludofl3x
at the top you will never understand anything at all. but still government is in control does not means that it should kill only.

but no one has given you the charge or dominion. and god has given to every living entity ( just like father give to all sons ) not that particular son.

why do you claim ? why do you slaughter cow ? they have got rights. so so many faults there are but you are not reasoanble. ( you are farce )


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#52
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@chustave
Yeah, your latest post did not exactly  clarify it, sorry. 
#53
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@ludofl3x
and who has awakened those ? who pretends to sleep ? huh? ( i will no longer waste time on spoiled idiot like you )
#54
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@Tradesecret


.
Tradesecret, the FAKE runaway Christian,


JESUS STATED (2 Peter 1:20-21) THE FOLLOWING: “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2: 14-17)

YOUR SATANIC RESPONSE: Yes, James makes that comment.  His point is not that we need works to earn salvation - but that true faith is always accompanied by works. As Paul puts it elsewhere, we are saved unto good works.  We cannot please God. This is the point of the entire gospel. You should try reading the bible rather than posting other people's works. 


YOUR CONTRADICTION ALERT STATEMENT:  "His point is not that we need works to earn salvation - but that true faith is always accompanied by works"

Huh?  You don't need works, but then if you want true faith, then you do need works? Do you see why we laugh at you?   LOL!!!


When you state; “we are saved unto good works” then you agree that "works" are needed for salvation. Thank you for finally coming to terms with your biblical ignorance.  Whew!

Additionally in your Devil Speak quote above, when you state that we cannot please Jesus as God, then do you use a black Sharpie to block out the following passages where the Christian is to try and please Jesus as God? Please answer in a cogent manner this time. Thank you.


“But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.” (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

“When a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.” (Proverbs 16:7)

“And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.” (1 John 3:22)

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” (Hebrews 13:16)



With your Devil Speak ungodly posts, you jump around like a fart on a hot skillet in trying to rewrite the bible with your subjective interpretation and opinion.  Again, it is no wonder why you tried to keep your PRESBIE division of the faith hidden!!!  


.

#55
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@Tradesecret


.
Tradesecret, the FAKE runaway Christian,


YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE IN FRONT OF JESUS: “I used the word metaphorical because animals are referred to metaphorical. Yet I accept that others do not necessarily see the horses as metaphorical, you for instance are a literalist. “

Yes, I am a LITERALIST, praise Jesus!  This prevents me from acting like an ungodly fool like you do where you subjectively spew forth your comical “It could have been, or it could have meant” wishful thinking Devil Speak!  What do you think Jesus does when He watches you perform this Satanic act? In simpler terms for you to hopefully comprehend, WWJD?



TRADESECRET; Where in the bible does it say to “interpret its content away from its literal written word?” Please provide me with a few verses or narratives in this respect.  I will be waiting for you to provide this information in your next post. Thank you.



As a literalist, I do not interpret literal written words spoken by none other Jesus the Christ, whereas this would be elevating myself above Jesus as Yahweh/God incarnate which would be BLASPHEME!  I therefore follow the inspired by Jesus verses below where I do not make myself the final arbiter of which parts of the Bible are to be conveniently interpreted away from their literal written word. 

“Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.”  (2 Peter 1:20)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation, for the prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4)

TRADESECRET, DO YOU WANT TO DISAGREE WITH THE INSPIRED BY JESUS PASSAGES ABOVE THAT WE ARE NOT TO INTERPRET HIS LITERAL WORDS BY USING SUBJECTIVE CRYSTAL BALLS, OR DECODER RINGS, AND THAT THEY ARE FLAWLESS IN THEIR LITERAL MEANING TO BEGIN WITH?  RESPOND!


Here, let me try to help you in jettisoning your Devil Speak with this simple proposition, what Jesus said ONCE, He did not mean for His creation to take in many different and contradicting ways. Understood, minion of Satan?

Your form of ungodly Christianity, where you interpret the scriptures in what you need them to say, is the embarrassing reason why there are over 33,000 DIFFERENT DIVISIONS of Christianity, where they all contradict each other, but at the same time, EACH ONE is allegedly correct in their subjective specific doctrines!  Where comically, your Satanic church of being a Hell bound Presbyterian is one of 33,000, but to you, your church is the correct word of Jesus the Christ over the other 32,999 divisions!  Laughable at best at your expense once again! LOL!!!




.



#56
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@Tradesecret



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TRADESECRET, the FAKE runaway Christian,


Psssst, you forgot to address the following propositions that I made below in your post #47. Whoops!  You don't want to become what you are accusing me of, do you? YOUR QUOTE #47: "You are the one who ran away in the other topic - because your arguments were shown to be false and shallow."



YOUR LIE ABOUT YOU REWRITING THE BIBLE: “Not once have I rewritten the bible. You need to demonstrate otherwise. It is your assertion and I deny it.”

Quick to the point to save you further embarrassment again, when you proffer CONTINUOUS subjective and wishful thinking statements like: “I take it means that a place we go …”  “but this also probably means that the earth we live ……” yada, yada, yada, and then expound upon your subjective opinions as actual scripture, of which they are not, THEN YOU ARE IN FACT TRYING TO REWRITE THE BIBLE,  GET IT, MINION OF SATAN?!  H-E-L-L-O?


Where is your normal weak refutation?



YOUR OUTRIGHT LYING QUOTE ABOUT YOUR SATANIC CHURCH: “I am not ashamed of my church. Nor is the Presbyterian Church hell bound.”

Then why did I have to pull teeth to get an answer of what church affiliation that you belonged to?  Why did you continually hide from it in our previous discussions, where you even admitted that if you told me, I would use it for “canon fodder” against you!  This alone gives credence to your church having aspects worthy of embarrassment!  Priceless admittance on your part!

Therefore, you not only were embarrassed about your PRESBIE church, in which you should be, but you could not defend it as well that goes directly against Jesus' words! "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)  How utterly embarrassing for you once again in front of the membership and the eyes of Jesus! (Hebrews 4:13)


Where is your normal weak refutation?



YOUR LYING QUOTE IN YOU BELIEVING THAT YOU DID NOT COMMIT THE UNPARDONABLE SIN:  “I have not committed the unpardonable sin. You are ignorant of the doctrine and that was demonstrated in our last discussion that you ran away with your tail between your legs. 

No, I am not ignorant of this doctrine, and I did not run away, where you perceived that you were not guilty of this act IN YOUR COPY AND PASTE vain refutation.  I gave you direct BIBLICAL axioms in why you have committed the Unpardonable Sin that easily buried your copy and paste laughable refutation. Therefore, your existence upon this forum is all for naught because you blasphemed Jesus the Christ within His Triune Doctrine, of which YOU RUN AWAY FROM THIS FACT as continuously shown by you!  


Where is your normal weak refutation?



Seriously, it truly pains me to show you to be the most bible ignorant FAKE Christians on DebateArt Religion Forum, and at the same time, you actually THINK you’re a Christian, NOT! What did I expect from a PRESBIE mind set? LOL


Where is your normal weak refutation?





.


#57
Tradesecret
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@ludofl3x
But it's not a picture of heaven: it was purportedly here on earth, and god didn't live here, and man was given 'dominion' over all of earthly existence. That's not at all like heaven. 
I disagree. The Bible teaches that heaven and earth go hand in hand. This is the biblical and Jewish view. The Greek view separates the two. The Greek view which has become the predominant view in the West, has the earth as a place we need to escape from and heaven as a place we escape to. Heaven is separated from earth and we need to appease God to get him to let us in. The biblical view is quite different from this. 

Eden is heaven - the garden on earth. It was the garden of Eden, heaven that humanity was banished from. This is why the New Jerusalem is a picture of heaven coming down to earth. The bible teaches heaven on earth - it is not earth and it is separate from it. But they are both connected very closely. 

Earth is very much like heaven. 

Also Genesis does tell us that God lived in Eden, on his holy mountain. God walked in the cool of the evening around Eden. 

The end of the day - you can go on thinking about heaven from a Greek worldview point of view - that is entirely up to you. But that is not the picture presented in the bible. The Jewish worldview is starkly in contrast to the Greek point. 

#58
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@BrotherDThomas
“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2: 14-17)

Yes, James makes that comment.  His point is not that we need works to earn salvation - but that true faith is always accompanied by works. As Paul puts it elsewhere, we are saved unto good works.  We cannot please God. This is the point of the entire gospel. You should try reading the bible rather than posting other people's works. "His point is not that we need works to earn salvation - but that true faith is always accompanied by works"

You don't need works, but then if you want true faith, then you do need works?
I never said we don't need works per se. Don't tell lies. I said we don't need works to earn salvation. and that is true. otherwise Jesus' death on the cross was a waste of time. Yet, we are saved to do good works. In other words, our good works flow out of a heart of gratitude towards a God who saved us in spite of the fact that we DID NOT DESERVE it. 


When you state; “we are saved unto good works” then you agree that "works" are needed for salvation.
Don't twist what I said.  Works are not needed for salvation. God's grace is needed for our salvation. 


“But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.” (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

Yes, we please God because we are ALREADY saved. Not to get into heaven. Paul is talking to Christians who might take the view that grace is cheap. 

“When a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.” (Proverbs 16:7)

This has nothing to do with salvation. It is about the way people relate with each other on earth, unless you expect to have enemies in heaven. 

“And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.” (1 John 3:22)

John is talking to Christians - to people who are already saved. We please God by obeying his commandments - not to earn salvation to get into heaven. 

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” (Hebrews 13:16)

Christians are commanded to do good works. What part of this do you not understand? 
#59
Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
“I used the word metaphorical because animals are referred to metaphorical. Yet I accept that others do not necessarily see the horses as metaphorical, you for instance are a literalist.“

Yes, I am a LITERALIST. This prevents me from acting like an ungodly fool like you do where you subjectively spew forth your comical “It could have been, or it could have meant” wishful thinking Devil Speak!  
That is what I said. You are a literalist. This means you don't interpret the Scriptures properly. The bible is not written to be read literally. It is written in numerous genres and ought to be read in such genres, not just the literal. Even Jesus told the Pharisees to read the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. Literalism is reading the "letter of the law", not the spirit of the law.  

Where in the bible does it say to “interpret its content away from its literal written word?” Please provide me with a few verses or narratives in this respect. 
Gee that last verse will suffice. Stop reading the letter of the law - and get to its heart, to its spirit. Jesus took the literalist letter of the law from Moses in  his Sermon on the Mount and interpreted it according to its spirit, to its substance, to its heart. Do not commit adultery was not just a literalist reading - it became looking at someone with lust in your hearts. Will you accuse Jesus of being wrong? 

As a literalist, I do not interpret literal written words spoken by none other Jesus the Christ, whereas this would be elevating myself above Jesus as Yahweh/God incarnate which would be BLASPHEME!  I therefore follow the inspired by Jesus verses below where I do not make myself the final arbiter of which parts of the Bible are to be conveniently interpreted away from their literal written word. 
What does that even mean? You blaspheme without stopping. 

“Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.”  (2 Peter 1:20)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation, for the prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4)
Again I have no issue whatsoever with those verses. I totally agree. the Scriptures interpret the scriptures. SOLA SCRIPTURA. 

DO YOU WANT TO DISAGREE WITH THE INSPIRED BY JESUS PASSAGES ABOVE THAT WE ARE NOT TO INTERPRET HIS LITERAL WORDS BY USING SUBJECTIVE CRYSTAL BALLS, OR DECODER RINGS, AND THAT THEY ARE FLAWLESS IN THEIR LITERAL MEANING TO BEGIN WITH?  RESPOND!
Those verses DO NOT say we are to interpret the words of the Bible literally. They tell us not make our interpretations for ourselves. They tell us that the Bible is the only interpreter of the Scriptures and I totally hold to that position. Jesus uses metaphors. John uses Metaphors. Daniel used apocalyptic language. David used poetry. We don't interpret such language according to our own literal interpretation - we allow the word of God to interpret for ourselves. Tell me Brother, when David says God owns the cattle on a 1000 hills, what does that mean? Does it mean that God only owns the hills on a 1000 hills and the rest are up for grabs or is it poetical nonliteral language that says God owns all of the cattle on all of the hills? 




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@BrotherDThomas
“Not once have I rewritten the bible. You need to demonstrate otherwise. It is your assertion and I deny it.”

I  notice you did not provide an example or any evidence - just assert without argument. 

“I am not ashamed of my church. Nor is the Presbyterian Church hell bound.”

Then why did I have to pull teeth to get an answer of what church affiliation that you belonged to?  Why did you continually hide from it in our previous discussions, where you even admitted that if you told me, I would use it for “canon fodder” against you!  This alone gives credence to your church having aspects worthy of embarrassment!  Priceless admittance on your part!
For the record, I never answered you. Go back and have a look. I said Harikrish said I was and I confirmed that I did not think the Presbyterian church is an embarrassing church nor Hellbound. I also said I neither confirm nor deny my affiliation with that particular denomination. My point entirely has been that - it is entirely irrelevant what my background is. And I continue that line. so you can call me Presby if you like, but that is your characterisation, not mine. 

Therefore, you not only were embarrassed about your PRESBIE church, in which you should be, but you could not defend it as well that goes directly against Jesus' words! "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)  How utterly embarrassing for you once again in front of the membership and the eyes of Jesus! (Hebrews 4:13)
You take the bible out of context in so many ways.  I don't have to defend myself to you - unless you are a non-believer. Are you admitting you are a non-believer? 

“I have not committed the unpardonable sin. You are ignorant of the doctrine and that was demonstrated in our last discussion that you ran away with your tail between your legs. 

No, I am not ignorant of this doctrine, and I did not run away,
Yes you are and yes you did. You are a buffoon. You took off like a dog with a tail between its legs. woof. 

 I gave you direct BIBLICAL axioms in why you have committed the Unpardonable Sin
Well no you did not. You make an accusation based on bad interpretation and you completely contradicted Jesus. You called Jesus a liar. Go back and look. Everyone who can read - can see what happened. You ran away. Jesus said - blasphemy against Jesus, the son of man can be forgiven - but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot. Your argument consisted completely of me - in your twisted understanding - blaspheming Jesus by using the word "if". Yet, when confronted by the fact that Jesus himself used the word "IF", you ran away. Pathetic little man.