Let it Go!

Author: EtrnlVw

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#1
EtrnlVw
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I've tried this before but didn't get a good response but let's try it again. Pretend the Bible doesn't exist and all the little things you hate about it and religion, while we're at it let's assume God exists just for this thread. The reason for this would be so that you can concoct questions and ideas about God without the judgement of the Bible in the way. Believe it or not the Creator exists with or without the Bible, in other words the Bible doesn't dictate anything. What it does do in many cases, is give you some ideas and clues about the mysteries of spirituality however perfection is out of the question so at some point you will need to get over it. But....if it's something that annoys you and you can't get over the mistakes within it then all is not lost, the Creator still exists and so is the nature of your being to understand that reality. Forget about it for just this moment, let the influence of Christianity go...let's get a little deeper in this topic, give me what you got, questions, arguments or ideas about God and the soul that have no relevance to the Bible.

I want to do this because often times the Bible get's in the way of what could be great inquiries and discussions, we spend far too much time debating errors in that literature. Far too much wasted time in religious forums all over the internet with the wrong understanding and misconceptions because of what religion has done in the name of "God" and some of the stupidity within religious texts.
You, as an individual soul still have an origin and a purpose within creation apart from all that baloney, the Bible is just a source to find a connection but it's not necessary for your involvement. Feel free to be creative and limitless in your inquiries. If you can't seem to get over the follies of religion and the Bible then don't comment or respond, just go to the next thread about the Bible! This topic will be directly about the Creator without religion or scriptural texts involved. Fun right? yes it is give it a go....I'll do my best to just speak plain truth and relevant facts without any specific reference to any religions, although some things may be unavoidable because there are many facts about God within such texts.
But again, this is not about religion or the Bible and I am not pressed to push that on you. 

I do have a real passion for atheists in general, so while religious people can participate my heart is more towards you guys (atheists). 

#2
BrotherDThomas
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@EtrnlVw



.
EtrnlVw,

The ONLY God that would still exist WITHOUT said God's writings describing Him or Her, is the Deist God concept.

DEISM: belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it and remains nonexistent to earths inhabitants.

It would be comical to watch your proposition in use, whereas the people that would follow your dissertation would have to use Metaphysical Constructs as its foundation, as "Anything goes" where the mind can masturbate itself into feeling good in whatever it wants in accepting a God concept as you described!  LOL


.



#3
janesix
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Obviously it is nearly impossible to have a real discussion here
#4
Harikrish
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@EtrnlVw
I am a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic Fundamentalism. My concept of God is all encompassing. It includes Karma, transcendental aspirations and the quantum consciousness driven entanglements in our realm and beyond.
Scriptures keeps us grounded because it deals with the problems of the one, many and others. Our experiences, perspectives and developments are different. Language is the great unifier.
I think therefore I am.
As a Bible scholar and a spiritual leader the means justify the end. If you are distracted by what you see it is Maya.

Harikrish
#5
Harikrish
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@janesix

Obviously it is nearly impossible to have a real discussion here
If you are looking for intimacy, try a dating site. Here the sound of one hand clapping doesn't resonate very far.
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#6
EtrnlVw
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@Harikrish
I am a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition and trained in esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic Fundamentalism.
How many times can you repeat the same thing? I know exactly what you claim to be. Did you think I forgot six years or more ago your silly title lol? geeze you don't get do ya? I don't like stale baloney.
My concept of God is all encompassing.
Sometimes I wonder if you even embrace a concept of the Creator. Is everything you do and say generic? or do you actually believe it?
It includes Karma, transcendental aspirations and the quantum consciousness driven entanglements in our realm and beyond.
With your behavior one would have to wonder again do you actually believe in Karma or is it just fun for you to repeat such sentiments?
Scriptures keeps us grounded because it deals with the problems of the one, many and others. Our experiences, perspectives and developments are different. Language is the great unifier.
The problem with this is yet again, it doesn't match your actions. So it comes off as just another generic fun thing for you to say, not do or agree with in a real way. There is nothing unifying or grounded about Harikrish, he is a lost little soul in a reality where he doesn't really apply or get anything.
I think therefore I am.
Wrong Hari, it's I am therefore I think. The one comes before the other, whoever thought of that statement didn't think real hard lol.
As a Bible scholar and a spiritual leader the means justify the end. If you are distracted by what you see it is Maya.
No Biblical scholar and certainly no leader, is everything you claim just stale baloney?

I'll tell you what, I'll give you another chance to ask a question or get out of your false persona, even the prideful Harikrish needs some answers. Give it a try, let me see something real, only I really doubt you will ever do that. Bye bye.

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#7
EtrnlVw
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@BrotherDThomas
The ONLY God that would still exist WITHOUT said God's writings describing Him or Her, is the Deist God concept.

Give God whatever labels you want, God still exists apart from writings...can be experienced apart from writings! Amazing people can't get such a simple truth. 
 
It would be comical to watch your proposition in use

One way to find out.
Start with anything you wish to know or understand. Otherwise buzz off. 
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#8
EtrnlVw
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@janesix
Yeah but why not try? nothing else good going on in this forum. People love to babble about the Bible all day long, why not try something new? 
#9
Dr.Franklin
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@Harikrish
Ethang exposed your profile picture, trad exposed you are a women
#10
Harikrish
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@Dr.Franklin
Ethang exposed your profile picture, trad exposed you are a women
That just proves how confused they are. They dare not show their Facebook account.
#11
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@Harikrish
Because facebook steals your information, no one wants to be there
#12
Harikrish
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@Dr.Franklin
Because facebook steals your information, no one wants to be there
When you have nothing to hide like Harikrish, it's not a problem. 
#13
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@Harikrish
Yes it is, They are brainwashing you and getting your IP and addresses
#14
Harikrish
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@Dr.Franklin
Yes it is, They are brainwashing you and getting your IP and addresses
I have hundreds of friends on Facebook.

Debateart like DDO is a discussion forum. We have to end this social talk. Go join a chat site. 

#15
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@Harikrish
Facebook steals your data
#16
Deb-8-a-bull
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@EtrnlVw
Nice post man FULL STOP

Ok Now i have to act the fool.
I did what was asked in your post. Playing pretendy's is my thing. You know its my thing.hey?
Ok so. ' takes deep breath ' 
Gone.  no bible.
No bible 
No bible .
And bammmmmmm ,  No religious groups 
No religious groups.
Everyones the same .
All are the same 
Nothing 
Nothing .
Andddddddddddddd.
Boooooommmmmmm. Bright white light.
Bright white light god , I've got a bright white light god.

Quickly , quickly What now? 
Oh no what is the next step?
' God starts to fade ' 
Gone. 

Damit.

That was the closest I've ever been to God. 
For some reason The bright light i see i think its " name " is allan or allarm or something along thoes lines.
I'm not sure what that is about, but ummmmmmm yeah 
' kicks dirt ' 
Ok cool. 

Good game.
Good game.



 

  



#17
Deb-8-a-bull
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@EtrnlVw
The whole bible getting in the way thing is a big ummmmm , turnoff. 
It feels like your, that's you and the other groups, are just painting god REAL REAL THICK LIKE. 
It BRUSH IN ALL THE WAY NO WIPES AND JUST SLAP APPLY. 
COAT 
AFTER COAT.AFTER COAT.
You know what i mean?


How is a kid ever going to realize that Corn invented humans ?
A KID WILL ATTACH RELIGIOUS GROUPS HAVIG SOMETHING TO DO WITH BELIEVING IN A GOD.and that i think is a ( i dont know the word ) its a shame . 
 
Hang on. Science does this also. This metaphor of painting gods , ( tar brushing is it? )

Fair enough.
Im going now.
Good day.sir


#18
Deb-8-a-bull
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Andddddddddddddd

( RANT MODE DEACTIVATE ) enter.

That was close
Just let it go.
Let it go.
 


#19
Imabench
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Im just here because of the Frozen reference. 
#20
keithprosser
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@EtrnlVw
If you ditch scriptiure then it's hard to know what is meant by the word 'god'.
I suggest there are two schools of thought. One holds hat consciuosness is fundamental an the material universe was brouht into eistence by sconsciousness the other schoolholds that matter is fundamental and consciuosness arises from a serendipitous arrangement of matter.

#21
SkepticalOne
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@EtrnlVw
I've tried this before but didn't get a good response but let's try it again. Pretend the Bible doesn't exist and all the little things you hate about it and religion, while we're at it let's assume God exists just for this thread
Why? I mean, we might allow this assumption for the sake of an argument, but you are proselytizing rather than making a logical argument.

That being said, I challenge the requested assumption. Let's not assume a god until it can be legitimately established with verifiable evidence. 


#22
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@keithprosser
The second school of thought doesn't suggest the necessity a god, no?
#23
ludofl3x
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Can you define "god" or "creator" without use of any mythological text? I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking atheists to do. If you erase the entire bible from the history of culture, then the god within it disappears. 
#24
Stronn
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@EtrnlVw
First, do you mean that there is just no Bible, or that there is no religious texts of any kind? If you mean no Bible,
then some other religion would have the place of Christianity. If you mean no religious texts at all, well, I doubt
that is possible given human nature. If there were no religious texts, someone would come along and write some
to fill the void. So in that sense you question is academic, since such a state could never exist without a
fundamental change in human nature.

But if for some reason there were no religious texts, and no world religions, yet God really did exist, then I would
approach the question of the nature of God the same way as any other inquiry of nature. I would ask what we
could infer about the nature of God from observing how the universe works. For one thing, we would
probably infer that he does not take a very active role in events, given that so much in nature seems random and 
capricious. We would conclude (if anyone would think to pray) that God either does not hear prayers or does not
care to answer them, given that they are no more effective than non-prayers. There would be no reason to think
that God wants our worship. We would likely conclude that God does not care to alleviate suffering, or forestall
death. As for the latter, we could conclude nothing about life after death due to lack of evidence. There would be
no reason to expect God to provide everlasting life.

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#25
EtrnlVw
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@keithprosser
If you ditch scriptiure then it's hard to know what is meant by the word 'god'.
Why? How about something really simple, like Creator? of course we can go into any depths, but let's start easy...
I suggest there are two schools of thought. One holds hat consciuosness is fundamental an the material universe was brouht into eistence by sconsciousness
This would be universal in Theism I would think, because it's also true. If anything falls outside this description I'm afraid it doesn't belong within Theism or spirituality, it doesn't even really fall into the category of reality or our experiences. You can argue it, but it's pointless.
the other schoolholds that matter is fundamental and consciuosness arises from a serendipitous arrangement of matter.
But again, this is the weak version, you know why? because of the EVIDENCE! only atheists include evidence into their conclusions if it has nothing to do with a Creator lol. So frustrating. Just using pure logic alone, does it makes any sense at all that consciousness arises from inanimate sludge? which of the two above sounds more likely? this time I want you to ignore the conditioning of your mind, shoot for natural intuition and common sense here if you would. Not dismissing all the evidence that correlates with the proposition that consciousness (soul) survives death.
Why would anyone fall for the inferior proposition?

Not many questions or inquires here, don't get lazy on me Keith. 

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#26
EtrnlVw
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@SkepticalOne
Why? I mean, we might allow this assumption for the sake of an argument, but you are proselytizing rather than making a logical argument.
Not at all what a silly claim, I'm prepared to argue, why would you think otherwise. But for this topic, why not change the rules a little bit? Is no one interested in discussing God apart from religion? on one hand, atheists hate religion. But when pressed to engage in this topic without it it's complete silence. Why come here day after day, year after year to just remind people how dumb there are to hold Theistic beliefs just because you can find errors within scriptures lol? what is the point? do you want to know about God or do you have no interest in that at all?
That being said, I challenge the requested assumption. Let's not assume a god until it can be legitimately established with verifiable evidence.
It has been, but again this is about perspective and perception. To deny there is evidence is simply intellectual dishonesty. Before you respond go google what evidence is defined as please. Then again if you're not interested in this topic see ya son. Actually you didn't even need to comment at all. 

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#27
EtrnlVw
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@Stronn
First, do you mean that there is just no Bible, or that there is no religious texts of any kind?
Either way, I'm just trying to stimulate people beyond the defects of the "Holy"Bible or the mistakes of any religious cultures or religious beliefs. My point in doing so is to move the conversation beyond that why? because the relevance between the individual and the Creator goes beyond that.
If you mean no Bible, then some other religion would have the place of Christianity. If you mean no religious texts at all, well, I doubt
that is possible given human nature. If there were no religious texts, someone would come along and write some
to fill the void. So in that sense you question is academic, since such a state could never exist without a
fundamental change in human nature.
Maybe you should reread the OP. All I'm asking, is if you are offended by the Bible let it go, let's discuss God without it. Very simple.
But if for some reason there were no religious texts, and no world religions, yet God really did exist, then I would
approach the question of the nature of God the same way as any other inquiry of nature. I would ask what we
could infer about the nature of God from observing how the universe works.
This is simple and you should understand this real easy, observe the nature of energy and how it operates within creation. This takes more than the conditioning of the mind and what you have been led to believe or accept.
You should be looking at how the universe has unfolded and asking questions not accepting baloney. If energy acts as intelligence, meaning that it creates things through processes right in front of our faces, then why is it so absurd to consider that an intelligent Source uses energy to create what we observe in the universe?
Why does energy exist at all? why does it produce intelligence at all? here's the answer to the first question, energy exists because conscious activity exists.
Wow, what an assertion huh? lol. not really think about it just for a moment.... when you look at everything involved it fits perfectly. We know for a fact that conscious activity produces energy, we know that energy acts as intelligence in what it produces. Energy is proposed it's neither created or destroyed, we know that God is claimed to be neither created or destroyed. But...if energy is present with conscious activity then once again it fits perfectly.
 For one thing, we would
probably infer that he does not take a very active role in events, given that so much in nature seems random and
capricious.
It's the nature of creating things, it's still all a process. Common sense point to the fact that processes occur with the mind or intelligence. Otherwise your out in space again making up impossible scenarios. What we see are processes, not randomness. But either way creation doesn't have to be perfect, this is the outskirts of God's creation. This realm is ruled by physics and chemistry, by death and life. As you move into the inner planes, there's less imperfections because there is less of the material worlds which dissipates in "time".
We would conclude (if anyone would think to pray) that God either does not hear prayers or does not
care to answer them
This is the big misconception about prayer and God. God doesn't sit around answering prayers and not, that's absurd. Prayer is an individual element, and it's based on principle like natural laws. Meaning you can say it's impersonal, because the relationship is based between the individual and spiritual laws, Not God per say. Just like natural laws, they work only by principle or application. Same thing with prayer. That's why the studies of it are inconsistent. Of course they would be, because one can't pray they be healed of cancer when they smacked their kid around a few days prior. Just as an example of course, all things must align in order for that principle to work. You can get this in the Gospels as well if you pay attention.

 given that they are no more effective than non-prayers. There would be no reason to think that God wants our worship.

I never said anything of the sort, that is why I made this topic to discuss this without religious dogma. Come on man...

We would likely conclude that God does not care to alleviate suffering, or forestall death. As for the latter, we could conclude nothing about life after death due to lack of evidence. There would be no reason to expect God to provide everlasting life.

This is the lowest part of creation, it's not meant to be perfect. There's many reason why this plane exists the way it does, but I'll let us get on some common ground before I proceed.

Topic's author
#28
EtrnlVw
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Nice post man FULL STOP

Ok Now i have to act the fool.
I did what was asked in your post. Playing pretendy's is my thing. You know its my thing.hey?
Ok so. ' takes deep breath ' 
Gone.  no bible.
No bible 
No bible .
And bammmmmmm ,  No religious groups 
No religious groups.
Everyones the same .
All are the same 
Nothing 
Nothing .
Andddddddddddddd.

Let it go, what do ya want to kno bro???

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#29
EtrnlVw
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@Imabench
Think you could put on your training pants for this thread instead of your diapers? 
#30
SkepticalOne
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@EtrnlVw
[...]we might allow this assumption for the sake of an argument, but you are proselytizing rather than making a logical argument.
Not at all what a silly claim, I'm prepared to argue, why would you think otherwise

Ok...what's the proposition?
Is no one interested in discussing God apart from religion?
Sure, I am, so long as Im not required to assume god just to have the discussion about god.

on one hand, atheists hate religion.
No. That is not a fair statement. I personally think religion is unnecessary. Once we realize religion doesnt justify anything, we'll (hopefully) be able to more easily address innate human deficiencies that are often masked by it. That being said, I don't hate religion. In some places religious institutions are the community. Until a viable alternative exists, hating religion is to hate community itself in many instances. 

In short, "atheists hate religion" is a trope that isn't necessarily true.

do you want to know about God or do you have no interest in that at all?
I'm interested in believing as many true things (and as few false things) as possible. I don't want to believe things other people dubiously hold to be true - that's a good way to end up believing in false things!

To be honest, I don't know what people mean when they say "God". Sometimes, an individual's religious beliefs help narrow a definition down - and there is typically a lot of (legitimate) baggage that comes with this understanding. When someone wants to talk about "God" outside of a religious context, it tends to set off alarm bells for me. Hardly anyone identifies as a deist, so why would so many people want to advocate deism unless they simply wanted to sanitize their beliefs to make them less objectionable?

So, let's ask the burning question here - are you REALLY advocating deism... No heaven, no hell, no 'revealed' deity, no personal god?


That being said, I challenge the requested assumption. Let's not assume a god until it can be legitimately established with verifiable evidence.
It has been, but again this is about perspective and perception. To deny there is evidence is simply intellectual dishonesty. 
I have not denied evidence. I encourage you to re-read my words. If you can show evidence for god, I'd be very interested in it. If not, then intellectual honesty would be admitting subjective evidence without verification is (at best) evidence for one.