JESUS condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths in HELL

Author: BrotherDThomas

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#31
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR BIBLICALLY IGNORANT QUOTE IN YOUR POST #17:  “The bible also describes God as good. It also says he is not the author of sin.” 

Since you had the laughable ignorance of posing that Jesus is not the author of sin, which is "logically" wrong, I am going to go real slow in your behalf so you can hopefully understand that Jesus did create sin in the Garden of Eden, okay? You can thank me later for this enlightenmen, although it is discouraging for a TRUE Christian like myself to accept this outcome.

First and foremost, Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate (1 Timothy 3:15-16), is omniscient (1 John 3:20), and He created EVERYTHING (Colossians 1:16), therefore, when Jesus is omniscient, He knew beforehand that Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden were going to be the first to use His inception of sin at the onset of His creation.  

In essence, not only did Jesus know that A&E were going to sin, but He set up Adam and Eve by placing the serpent with vocal cords within the confines of the Garden to tempt the first couple with Jesus’ newly founded and never used before notion of sin.  Then since Eve transgressed and partook of the forbidden fruit and handed it to Adam, she was firsts to commit the Original Sin, and subsequently, Jesus cursed her with pain on her child bearing years with the added precept of Adam shall rule over her. Ouch!

Now, put your thinking cap on, who CREATED the yet to be used sin in the first place at the onset of the Hebrew peoples Creation? YES, it was Yahweh/Jesus, therefore deducing it to its irreducible primary, Jesus created sin, and then used it at the onset of His Hebrew creation by allowing Eve to transgress against Him!  2+2=4.
Romans 5:12 clearly states that sin entered the world through one man (not God).  God is not the author of sin. Nor is he the creator of sin. Sin is not part of creation. Sin is not a thing. Sin is defined as that "which falls short of a defined standard". It is impossible logically for God to fall beneath his own standards. Sin is error. God is perfect. Surely you have read that God is perfect?

Nor does it seem that you  have an appreciation for the Reformed view of first and second causes. That provides a valid explanation for much of your inaccurate picture of God. You can go and read about it and produce your refutation. I am content until you do. 


YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANT QUOTE #2:  “If his executions or judgments were carried out in a vindictive manner or a whimsical manner or an arrogant manner or an unjust manner - then perhaps your views may have some merit”

First off, please show respect to our Jesus and capitalize the pronoun “His,” because Jesus is watching you disrespect Him, understood? (Hebrews 4:13).

Now, addressing your continued biblical ignorance, I will bring forth one of many examples of our Jesus being what you stated He is allegedly not in your quote above, with vindictiveness coming to the forefront in His behalf.  In Exodus 12:29, our Yahweh/Jesus intentionally murdered every first-born child of every family in Egypt, including the first born of livestock, simply because he was upset with Pharaoh.  The irony is the fact that our Yahweh/Jesus caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place.  Nonetheless, when is it ever loving and forgiving for our Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate to brutally murder innocent  first born children that knew not of Pharaoh’s actions that upset our Yahweh/Jesus?  Besides, our Jesus contradicted His inspired words this case by not following this passage: "Fathers are not to be put to death for their children or children for their fathers; each person will be put to death for his own sin.” (Deut 24:16)  

Since TRUE Christians need a laugh now and then, what is your latest Satanic apologetic spin doctoring to the biblical axioms above, but when giving them, remember, you have to try remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, okay?  TRUE Christians like myself just have to accept that our Jesus was truly a SOB brutal serial killer at times.

To save us both from further embarrassment towards our Jesus as Yahweh God incarante, I will NOT bring forth in detail the actions of our Lord when He Murdered innocent zygotes, fetus’ and babies in the Great Flood as their mothers watched in horror, and when He unjustly murdered innocent fetus’ within the womb of the women of Ephraim because He was not pleased with them and their husbands, and if said women gave birth, Jesus would murder the babies afterwards.  Vindictive? Yes, the true definition of this word.
I am amused that you think that using a small letter in a pronoun is likely to incur the wrath of God on me and yet you seem to have no trouble defaming and lying about God. I am pleased that God is not only just and holy but also compassionate and merciful. 

In respect to your responses to my statements, I make the following comments:

Would you care to define vindictiveness and how it relates to the death of every firstborn son and animal in Egypt? God's judgment on Egypt was not simply because God was upset with Pharaoh. Secondly, it was not murder. It was Judgment. Judgment by definition carried out by justly is not and cannot be murder. Moreover it cannot by definition be vindictive either. God did not cause Pharaoh's sin. When the bible talks about Pharaoh's heart being hardened - this is not God making him do something - it is God allowing Pharaoh the freedom to do what Pharaoh wants to do.  The word in the Hebrew is akin of "letting go of restraints". Prior to this time, God has been preventing Pharaoh from doing what he wanted to do. He had been holding him back as it were. Hence there is not a sense of vindictiveness in this story.

more to come.

#32
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@BrotherDThomas
Your direction in relation to God stating each person ought to be put to death for their own sin is worth looking at for a moment. This is because there is the implication that God punished all of the animals and babies and indeed many other people because of Pharaoh's sin against God. And probably at face value this appears to be the case.  Yet, we know from reading the passage that the Jews as a whole were made subject to many of the Egyptians and their whims because the Jews were their slaves. I don't find that a particularly satisfying answer of course. We also know that every person - born or not born is sinful from the moment they are conceived according to David in Psalms. Yet even if we could rely upon that as justification for their just judgment - it does not explain why the animals needed to be put to death as well.  And the answer is I don't have an answer that satisfies me. Yet, I don't need an answer - so far as I weigh it up with the fact that God is good and does not sin. Clearly if God is vindictive and whimsical and arrogant and unjust then he cannot be good and just.  Yet none of the passages you have provided actually provide evidence of him being vindictive. In fact the overall and overwhelming picture of God in the bible is that he is both Holy and Merciful.  This is the primary view of God and not the minority picture you are presenting.    



YOUR REVEALING QUOTE: “although you will still need to explain why you still only rely on some parts of the bible while clearly leaving the remainder behind”

We all know about the niceities of Jesus within the scriptures, and where He is all loving and forgiving, that is a given, BUT, when our Jesus turns into a brutal serial killer of the innocents and contradicts His all loving and forgiving nature, this stands out from what we were taught in Sunday School and subsequently into adulthood. Therefore this type of contradicting Jesus is to be shown as well for the sake of many. You understand, don’t you? Sure you do.

Please, I'll await a meaningful and cogent answer to my statements above that will show you living in the 21st century of morals and ethics, okay? Your new arrival within this forum allows me to take a break from the equally bible ignorant Stephen, and Dr. "C&P" Franklin, for that,correc I thank you.

In other words, you don't have a response. You as I indicated in the previous section try and paint a picture using a very small part of the bible and then you give this small part a great big weight - while simultaneously denying the rest and what would be substantially the weightier part.  I concede that there are many parts in the Bible which I do not understand and which give me pause for thought. But there are many other parts - and indeed the majority which contradict your incorrect view in relation to the God of the Bible. 

#33
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@Tradesecret
Yeah!, get him
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#34
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@Tradesecret


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Tradesecret,

First and foremost, before I easily and unfortunately Bible Slap you silly again in front of the membership here at DebateArt because of your misinformed position upon our Jesus’ true modus operandi within the scriptures, it must be mentioned that you are either too embarrassed and not capable in truly filling out your biography page yourself, or you need help from someone else to fill it out for you.  Maybe you could ask the equally dumbfounded of the bible, Dr. “C&P” Franklin to help you, where this scenario could turn into one of the funniest FAKE Christian Comedy Teams ever produced!

The biography page was included by DebarteArt for a purpose, and that was to inform others about the members information and acceptances that may make a foundation for their beliefs, or the lack thereof.  When one doesn’t fill out this page like you have not done, it speaks volumes in what you are hiding to save further embarrassment.


In any event, lets bring forth your continued bible ignorance for all DebateArt members to see once again
at your embarrassing expense:


YOUR QUOTE CONTINUING YOUR BLATANT BIBLE IGNORANCE: “Romans 5:12 clearly states that sin entered the world through one man (not God). (“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned)

Tradesecret, first off, your complete bible ignorance has no bounds!!!   NO, it was not Adam as a man that transgressed first to give ONLY the future Jews Original Sin!  It was Eve that transgressed first to initiate the Original Sin!  “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:14). To prove that Eve was the cause of Original Sin, and NOT Adam as you laughably proposed, our Jesus gave Eve pain in child bearing and her husband was to rule over her! (Genesis 3:16). This was the onset of women in the bible becoming second class citizens, of course, you already knew this fact.

Barring your embarrassing bible ignorance as shown in the above biblical examples, you are still having a hard time where Deuteronomy 24:16 states: “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.”  Therefore, your Romans 5:12 passage is moot to my godly Deuteronomy 24:16  passage because Adam and Eve sinned first, and since Deuteronomy 24:16 states that children ARE NOT to be put to death for their Fathers sin, in the manner that Jesus said if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, then Adam and Eve’s children are without Original Sin, and subsequent children as well, HUH?  Therefore the Original Sin only applied to Adam and Eve????!



YOUR QUOTE CONTINUING YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE:  “God is not the author of sin. Nor is he the creator of sin. Sin is not part of creation. Sin is not a thing. Sin is defined as that "which falls short of a defined standard". It is impossible logically for God to fall beneath his own standards. Sin is error. God is perfect. Surely you have read that God is perfect? “

Let me go as slow as possible so you will not make any more embarrassing statements drawn from your insipid Satanic Apologetic Books upon this topic, okay?  Jesus creating sin is most importantly a part of Creation being wholeheartedly connected to the Original SIN of Eve’s transgression. HELLO, ANYBODY HOME TODAY TRADESECRET?!  Within the sixth day our Yahweh/Jesus/Spirit God created Adam and told him not to eat from the tree of knowledge or else he would die. (Genesis 2:15)  

NOW, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION, READY?  At this specific time on the 6th day of Creation, no one knew about the concept of sin, EXCEPT JESUS SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT AND KNEW IT WAS FORTHCOMING WHEN THE FALL OF MAN HAPPENED!  STOP!  Now, did Adam know of sin? NO!  Did Eve know of sin? NO! Did the animals know about sin? NO! All of these bible characters only knew about not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge or else they would die. They absolutely knew NOTHING about sin, period!!! 

Hmmmmm, therefore, who was left in being the last entity to know about the sin scenario since Jesus was Yahweh God incarnate and was omniscient in knowing all things? WHY YES, it was the omniscient Jesus the Christ, the creator of the Jewish people's race over all other races upon planet earth, just following His inspired word in this passage: "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:16 )

WAIT! The passage above includes the notion of sin being created by Jesus’ omniscient modus operandi, therefore Jesus created sin! 2+2=4 again!




CONTINUED >>>>>>>>>

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#35
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret



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Tradesecret,



CONTINUED AT YOUR EXPENSE


YOUR DISRESPECTFUL QUOTE TOWARDS JESUS:  “I am amused that you think that using a small letter in a pronoun is likely to incur the wrath of God on me and yet you seem to have no trouble defaming and lying about God.” 

I am equally amused that you take the position of slapping Jesus in the face again by disrespecting Him in not simply capitalizing the pro-noun “His.”  Furthermore, you Satanically take the position of not calling Him by His name!  Our God’s name is JESUS, as Yahweh God incarnate, and not God, like you call Him because this reference is a “title” like president, whereas, the word Jesus is His name, do you understand?

As a TRUE Christian, I have absolutely no trouble in calling Jesus out when He turns into a serial killer of innocent fetus’, babies, children, and where He turns into a brutal abortionist in the book of Hosea.  Notwithstanding, His penchant for condoning slavery and the beating of slaves in the New Testament writings. Unfortunately, you are guilty of the following inspired words of Jesus/Yahweh/Spirit: "Respect everyone, and love your Christian brothers and sisters. Fear God, and respect the king.” (1 Peter 2:17) You respect the KING which equals Jesus, by using His name!


YOUR SICKENING DICHOTOMY QUOTE: “I am pleased that God is not only just and holy but also compassionate and merciful.”

Tradesecrets, why are you so scared to rephrase your Satanic quote above to state the truth? Biblically speaking, it should read ; “I am pleased that Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is not only a blatant serial killer of innocent children, and where He caused abortions, and condones slavery and the beating of slaves, but also is compassionate and merciful” (Bro D 12:45)


YOUR INEPT QUOTE REGARDING THE BIBLE:  “Would you care to define vindictiveness and how it relates to the death of every firstborn son and animal in Egypt?”

Since it is embarrassingly shown that you cannot use a search engine to find the meaning of the word “vindictiveness” like I did in answering your previous comical post, the term VINDICTIVENESS simply means: disposed or inclined to revenge; vengeful: a revengeful spirit. Understood? Yes? Maybe?

In the bible narrative of Pharaoh, our Jesus took out revenge upon him by blatantly and wrongfully murdering innocent 1st born children that knew not of what Pharaoh did to displease our serial killer Jesus until they were brutally murdered. Notwithstanding, Jesus also murdered the innocent 1st born of all animals in Egypt to add to the frosting of being a vindictive God. You can insidiously call it Judgment all day long until you are blue in the face, but the end results was murder, plain and simple, without any further sickening apologetics that makes using the term Judgment as being psychotic!  Jesus was MURDERING THE 1ST BORN OF INNOCENT CHILDREN THAT KNEW NOT OF PHARAOHS ACTS THAT DISPLEASED JESUS = VINDICTIVE JESUS THE CHRIST, PERIOD!


YOUR “HANGING” QUOTE: “God's judgment on Egypt was not simply because God was upset with Pharaoh.”

Okay, then what was the additional reason that Jesus was upset in this scenario? Don’t leave us “hanging” for your deceiving apologetic rendition of an answer, the suspense is too much, tell us!!!  WAITING!


YOUR COMICAL AND STEPPING IN THE PROVERBIAL POO QUOTE, AGAIN!: “God did not cause Pharaoh's sin. When the bible talks about Pharaoh's heart being hardened - this is not God making him do something - it is God allowing Pharaoh the freedom to do what Pharaoh wants to do.  The word in the Hebrew is akin of "letting go of restraints". Prior to this time, God has been preventing Pharaoh from doing what he wanted to do. He had been holding him back as it were. Hence there is not a sense of vindictiveness in this story. “

Jesus most certainly allowed Pharaoh to sin because Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, and not by chance, decides what happens in human affairs “The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:33)  


Then to further embarrass your bible ignorance  you have the audacity to proffer the following, to wit: “When the bible talks about Pharaoh's heart being hardened - this is not God making him do something - it is God allowing Pharaoh the freedom to do what Pharaoh wants to do.”

WRONG!  HELLO?  In addressing your latest child like Bible Babble Banter of yours, Pharaoh DOES NOT have the freedom of what he wants to do or not do, because Jesus is omniscient and knows beforehand in what Pharaoh will do at any given time! Therefore, Pharaoh DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL  but he is only a puppet that Jesus is operating to His wants by being omniscient!

Jesus being omniscient and knowing first hand in what Pharaoh will do is dealing the death blow to your perceived knowledge of Pharaoh’s having free will, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?:

“In whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.” (1 John 3:20)

“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.” (John 6:64)

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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#36
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret


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Tradesecret,

CONTINUED AT YOUR EXPENSE AGAIN:

BROTHER D’S QUOTE: “We all know about the niceties of Jesus within the scriptures, and where He is all loving and forgiving, that is a given, BUT, when our Jesus turns into a brutal serial killer of the innocents and contradicts His all loving and forgiving nature, this stands out from what we were taught in Sunday School and subsequently into adulthood. Therefore this type of contradicting Jesus is to be shown as well for the sake of many. You understand, don’t you? Sure you do.”

YOUR QUOTE IN RESPONSE TO MY QUOTE ABOVE:  “In other words, you don't have a response. You as I indicated in the previous section try and paint a picture using a very small part of the bible and then you give this small part a great big weight - while simultaneously denying the rest and what would be substantially the weightier part.”

Tradesecret, let me try and explain it to you as simply as possible, okay? My cogent response in my quote above stands strong, where I am so sorry that you cannot accept a very simple proposition to the topic at hand of small verse large in weight within the scriptures. The small part that I am using matters, its like you were at a party and drinking from a punch bowl and you really liked the punch, THAT IS UNTIL A TURD FLOATED TO THE TOP OF THE PUNCH BOWL, GET IT?  That "turd" in this case is Jesus being a brutal serial killer of innocent children, an abortionist, where He condones slavery in the New Testament, and other despicable stuff that He orders His followers to do, GET IT?



I get so tired of having to “school ignorant FAKE Christians” on DebateArt, that I should just hold a daily Bible Class on this forum through Paypal, and give an appropriate commission to the hierarchy of DebateArt!  






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#37
BrotherDThomas
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@Dr.Franklin



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Dr. "C&P Franklin,

YOUR QUOTE: "Yeah!, get him"

As you can readily see, Tradesecret is a pussy cat, and could no more defend the Bible than you could!  Are you two brothers, since Tradesecret is as dumbfounded of the Bible as you are!  LOL!

NEXT?


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#38
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@BrotherDThomas
I would pay to see your school
#39
Harikrish
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@Dr.Franklin
I would pay to see your school
Do you regret shutting down your fake free bible school after you were exposed for plagiarism by Harikrish? Shouldn't you be dealing with your other mental issues you confessed you suffered from?
#40
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@Harikrish
You did not shut down my school
#41
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@Dr.Franklin
You did not shut down my school
Learn to read.

Do you regret shutting down your fake free bible school after you were exposed for plagiarism by Harikrish? Shouldn't you be dealing with your other mental issues you confessed you suffered from?

#42
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@Harikrish
Again, I shut it down temporarality for my other projects
#43
Alec
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Jesus condemning innocents to hell is one reason why I am not Christian.
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#44
BrotherDThomas
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@Alec



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Alec,


YOUR REVEALING QUOTE: "Jesus condemning innocents to hell is one reason why I am not Christian."

Not only does my Jesus condemn His Jewish creation to Hell, but as I have shown, while His Jewish followers are on earth, He horrifically murders them with Floods, Plagues, etc., and orders His Jewish followers to murder others in His behalf!  This is what truly takes my faith to the edge at times.


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#45
BrotherDThomas
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@Dr.Franklin



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Dr. "C&P" Franklin,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE: "Again, I shut it down temporarality for my other projects"

Your "other projects" must include you learning how not to remove one foot to insert the other all the time while on DebateArt Religion forum!

Good for you, but thus far, this proposition is not working, sorry.


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#46
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@BrotherDThomas
I'm talking about the DDO relgiion forum, you know with Ethang
#47
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@BrotherDThomas
C&P" Franklin,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE: "Again, I shut it down temporarality for my other projects"

Your "other projects" must include you learning how not to remove one foot to insert the other all the time while on DebateArt Religion forum!

Good for you, but thus far, this proposition is not working, sorry.


Franklin is a pro at getting sexually abused. We have his confessions on DDO.
#48
Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
“Romans 5:12 clearly states that sin entered the world through one man (not God). (“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned)

NO, it was not Adam as a man that transgressed first to give ONLY the future Jews Original Sin! 
Hmm, so you have no qualms in contradicting the bible. Ok. You seem happy to add what is not in the bible. Are you sure you are a Christian? 

It was Eve that transgressed first to initiate the Original Sin! 
So tell us is Genesis right or is Paul right?  

“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:14).
And now you are siding with Paul. Wow! you really don't know your ups from your downs. 

To prove that Eve was the cause of Original Sin, and NOT Adam
Paul said sin entered the world through one man. Are you saying Paul was wrong?  Yes you are. Of course, you show a very shallow understanding of the original sin. But that does not surprise me. The shallowness is consistent with the rest of your discussions. It would be interesting to see if you are able to distinguish between the biblical understanding of sin and sins. A big clue is that we are not talking about plural verses singular, but something else - I wonder if you know?  


you are still having a hard time where Deuteronomy 24:16 states: “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.” 
Oh dear, it is a problem admitting I don't know everything. (meep meep) Ok, unlike you, I don't put myself on the same level as God. I don't have an answer for all the problems and complexities of the Bible. I don't need to pretend to either. Nor does it mean I run of and find an impossible doctrine such as God is evil. 

Therefore, your Romans 5:12 passage is moot to my godly Deuteronomy 24:16  passage because Adam and Eve sinned first, and since Deuteronomy 24:16 states that children ARE NOT to be put to death for their Fathers sin, in the manner that Jesus said if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, then Adam and Eve’s children are without Original Sin, and subsequent children as well, HUH?  Therefore the Original Sin only applied to Adam and Eve????!
That does not even make sense.  Go back and read it again. One passage is not more godly than the other. Nor do they need to contradict each other. A question might also be asked as to whether laws God was applying to humanity must ipso facto apply to God. I have not been persuaded that they must. This is your argument - therefore the burden is on you to prove it. I think the Bible clearly states that God is not subject to the rules and laws of man. 


 “God is not the author of sin. Nor is he the creator of sin. Sin is not part of creation. Sin is not a thing. Sin is defined as that "which falls short of a defined standard". It is impossible logically for God to fall beneath his own standards. Sin is error. God is perfect. Surely you have read that God is perfect? “

Jesus creating sin is most importantly a part of Creation being wholeheartedly connected to the Original SIN of Eve’s transgression.
So you say, prove it. Sin is not a thing. It is not part of the creation. Paul tells us that sin was introduced by humanity. the only way around this is to admit Paul was wrong. Will you do that?

Within the sixth day our Yahweh/Jesus/Spirit God created Adam and told him not to eat from the tree of knowledge or else he would die. (Genesis 2:15)  
Yes, totally agree that God told humanity not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This was the covenant of works. 


At this specific time on the 6th day of Creation, no one knew about the concept of sin, EXCEPT JESUS SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT AND KNEW IT WAS FORTHCOMING WHEN THE FALL OF MAN HAPPENED! 
The first people understood at this point that to disobey God meant death. It is inconceivable that they did not ask God what death was.  I am not persuaded that they did not understand the concept of sin. 


Now, did Adam know of sin? NO!  Did Eve know of sin? NO! Did the animals know about sin? NO! All of these bible characters only knew about not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge or else they would die. They absolutely knew NOTHING about sin, period!!! 
Well that is your speculation. I somehow think that if God is going to tell them that if they disobey him they get death, that both Adam and Eve would very much have had that discussion with God.  And it would be a proper discussion about sin, death, the covenant of works etc. Is it described bit by bit in the story of Genesis? Obviously not. It does not describe many other things as well. They knew what sin was - they knew what it deserved. They intentionally did it anyway. 


WAIT! The passage above includes the notion of sin being created by Jesus’ omniscient modus operandi, therefore Jesus created sin! 2+2=4 again!a
no - wrong again.  but that is ok. Sometimes for the simple these things do take some time to understand.  Jesus did not create sin. Sin is not part of the created order. It is something altogether different.  Can you send me a box of sin, please? Or tell its colour? Or what is smells like? Or how big or small it is? It does not fit into the visible categories - but nor does it fit into other categories. Sin is not a thing. Therefore it is impossible for it to be created.  


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Tradesecret
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“I am amused that you think that using a small letter in a pronoun is likely to incur the wrath of God on me and yet you seem to have no trouble defaming and lying about God.” 

you talk so much nonsense - it is strangely puzzling. 

As a TRUE Christian, I have absolutely no trouble in calling Jesus out when He turns into a serial killer of innocent fetus’, babies, children, and where He turns into a brutal abortionist in the book of Hosea.  Notwithstanding, His penchant for condoning slavery and the beating of slaves in the New Testament writings. Unfortunately, you are guilty of the following inspired words of Jesus/Yahweh/Spirit: "Respect everyone, and love your Christian brothers and sisters. Fear God, and respect the king.” (1 Peter 2:17) You respect the KING which equals Jesus, by using His name!
I reject your assertion that because I did not use a capital in him that I have disrespected Jesus. 

“I am pleased that God is not only just and holy but also compassionate and merciful.”

Why are you so scared to rephrase your Satanic quote above to state the truth? Biblically speaking, it should read ; “I am pleased that Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is not only a blatant serial killer of innocent children, and where He caused abortions, and condones slavery and the beating of slaves, but also is compassionate and merciful”
I have no reason to rephrase as I don't believe your incorrect assertions.  God is holy and just. He is compassionate and merciful. 

 “Would you care to define vindictiveness and how it relates to the death of every firstborn son and animal in Egypt?”

In the bible narrative of Pharaoh, our Jesus took out revenge upon him by blatantly and wrongfully murdering innocent 1st born children that knew not of what Pharaoh did to displease our serial killer Jesus until they were brutally murdered. Notwithstanding, Jesus also murdered the innocent 1st born of all animals in Egypt to add to the frosting of being a vindictive God. You can insidiously call it Judgment all day long until you are blue in the face, but the end results was murder, plain and simple, without any further sickening apologetics that makes using the term Judgment as being psychotic!  Jesus was MURDERING THE 1ST BORN OF INNOCENT CHILDREN THAT KNEW NOT OF PHARAOHS ACTS THAT DISPLEASED JESUS = VINDICTIVE JESUS THE CHRIST, PERIOD!
judgment is distinguished from vindictiveness. Judgment and just is logically and definitively impossibly incompatible with murder. Just because you are unable to distinguish such things does not make me incorrect. Calling something murder just because it suits you does not make it murder. Murder has a definition. you reckon you can google vindictiveness - can you google murder. Perhaps you might learn something. 

“God's judgment on Egypt was not simply because God was upset with Pharaoh.”

Okay, then what was the additional reason that Jesus was upset in this scenario? Don’t leave us “hanging” for your deceiving apologetic rendition of an answer, the suspense is too much, tell us!!!  WAITING!
God's holiness. Egypt's sin against God. God's perfect judgment. God sent Jesus to deal with sin because sin offended God's holiness. This is more than simply being upset with humanity.  It goes much deeper than this. I thought you said you were a real Christian - and yet you don't seem to comprehend basic 101 concepts like holiness, sin, and judgment. 

“God did not cause Pharaoh's sin. When the bible talks about Pharaoh's heart being hardened - this is not God making him do something - it is God allowing Pharaoh the freedom to do what Pharaoh wants to do.  The word in the Hebrew is akin of "letting go of restraints". Prior to this time, God has been preventing Pharaoh from doing what he wanted to do. He had been holding him back as it were. Hence there is not a sense of vindictiveness in this story. “

Jesus most certainly allowed Pharaoh to sin because Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, and not by chance, decides what happens in human affairs “The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:33)  
There is a distinction between causing Pharaoh's sin and allowing Pharaoh to sin. Again it would be helpful if you googled - first and second causes which you seem unable to grasp. 

“When the bible talks about Pharaoh's heart being hardened - this is not God making him do something - it is God allowing Pharaoh the freedom to do what Pharaoh wants to do.”

WRONG!    Pharaoh DOES NOT have the freedom of what he wants to do or not do, because Jesus is omniscient and knows beforehand in what Pharaoh will do at any given time! Therefore, Pharaoh DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL  but he is only a puppet that Jesus is operating to His wants by being omniscient!
Pharaoh does have free will. God never prevented Pharaoh from using his free will. He did restrain him for a while in relation to his own consistency - which is good for all involved. But eventually, he let Pharaoh do exactly what he wanted to do. This is the meaning of the idiom of hardening or softening his heart. I am surprised you did not know this. But then again - you are pretty dimwitted. Rejecting Pharaoh's free will is something you have to establish. I do believe in free will and am clear the bible teaches it. God is just. This is what his bible teaches. 



Jesus being omniscient and knowing first hand in what Pharaoh will do is dealing the death blow to your perceived knowledge of Pharaoh’s having free will, DO YOU UNDERSTAND?:



these are all wonderful verses and each of them are totally consistent with my position. God knows all things - we cannot hide anything from him.  His understanding has no limit. He knew who would betray him and who would believe. How do any of these things contradict me? First you need to be able to distinguish between first and second causes- and provide a jolly good refutation. 
#50
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The relavant passage is ex. 7:2-4

"...you, and your brother Aaron must declare it to Pharaoh so that he will let the Israelites go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you."

Clearly Pharaoh has free will - he will hear Moses and Aaron and could indeed choose to free - or not free - the Israelites based on their declaration.

However God intervenes to ensure Pharaoh will choose to not free the slaves.    So while God has grants us free will, he can impose his will on us when it suits His purpose to do so.  He is God, after all!   Gods can of sort of thing (allegedly).



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The relavant passage is ex. 7:2-4

"...you, and your brother Aaron must declare it to Pharaoh so that he will let the Israelites go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you."

Clearly Pharaoh has free will - he will hear Moses and Aaron and could indeed choose to free - or not free - the Israelites based on their declaration.

However God intervenes to ensure Pharaoh will choose to not free the slaves.    So while God has grants us free will, he can impose his will on us when it suits His purpose to do so.  He is God, after all!   Gods can of sort of thing (allegedly).
hi Keith,

I know the passage - but you need to understand the idiom here. Hardening Pharaoh's heart is not about causing Pharaoh not to comply. It was about taking off Pharaoh's natural restraints. In other words, his restraint had actually prevented Pharaoh from being as evil as could be. And perhaps there was an element therein in which God was hopeful that Pharaoh might repent and turn to God or was at least giving him the opportunity to do so.  I think it is more likely that he restrained Pharaoh initially to protect both the Jewish people as well as the Egyptian people. Yet, as the passage indicates - Pharaoh hardened his own heart - and God hardened Pharaoh's heart - God let Pharaoh do what Pharaoh wanted. This of course led to the consequences of his actions.  

In a way this is what happens with us today.  Christians talk about the total depravity of sin. This does not mean we are as evil as we could be possibly be. It just means that we are so sinful that we are not holy. I use the analogy of a glass of water. We are the glass of water. And if we are without sin, we are a pure glass of water.  Now if we take a drop of ink and drop it into the glass, what happens to the purity of the water? One drops spreads throughout the entire glass of water - the water becomes tainted. It does not all become ink - but how many people would drink it even if they knew there was only one drop? This is total depravity of sin. Sin taints or touches every part of the person, hence its totality. Yet it does not make the person all evil. Yet, God wont drink the water - and we wont be considered holy. This is the picture of all humanity - yet some individuals if left to their own devices become more and more tainted - because of his jealousy, because of his anger, because of a whole lot of reasons - and while God prevented this becoming to bad - for the sake of his people - eventually he let Pharaoh do what he wanted to. 

In any event - Pharaoh' will so far as we are concerned was free - and therefore he was responsible for his own actions. God rightly and justly judged him and Egypt. 

the issue of free will is complex. What does free will mean? I think it is very difficult to define. In our society for instance - we have free will - or don't we? We could all run naked down the street - but we don't. Why not? What restrains us? Our governments restrain us - our morals restrain us  - our cultures restrain us - the weather restrains us - so many things. We could all kill someone else - but we don't - what restrains us from doing so? 

On another level - free will cannot make me do impossible things. I have the free will to fly - but I don't have the ability to do so. I have the free will to twist and distort and persuade and do magic - but I don't have the ability or capacity. 

In our legal systems we recognise intention and culpability. The state must prove intention, whether that be premeditated, or recklessness, or negligence to prove a crime. Yet, things like accident, or automatism, or mental health issues can rebut and refute this. 

Pharaoh was totally responsible for his sin. and whether God hardened his heart or not - whether this let his restrains of or made it more unlikely to resist - it was still up to Pharaoh. The bible does not say expressly that God made him do it, even though God knew he would do it. 

I have asked the author to distinguish between first and second causes. He has not done it yet. I doubt he has the ability to understand and differentiate between the two. Yet, the bible clearly talks about both.  Like free will and determinism, both are laid out in the Scriptures side by side - I don't have to understand how they meet or don't meet. Sometimes this causes me pain in the brain - but mostly I ask myself - why is it necessary for me to understand these things. God is not a human that I could understand him. And if I could understand him, then probably he is not a god. 
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BrotherDThomas
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Tradesecret,



RELATIVE TO EITHER ADAM OR EVE BEING FIRST TO TRANSGRESS, YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE STATES: “So tell us is Genesis right or is Paul right?”  

Well, you are going to have to tell us in which way Paul actually believes when he states in Romans 5:12 that it was man (Adam) that was responsible for the original sin, BUT, then in 2 Corinthians 11:3, Paul states with specificity that it was Eve that was responsible for the original sin: “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” 

THEREFORE, USING YOUR OWN WORDS, WHICH RENDITION FROM PAUL IS CORRECT, WAS IT ADAM OR EVE THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ORIGINAL SIN?  AWAITING A COGENT RESPONSE THIS TIME, OKAY? 

Tradesecret, I really don’t like to take the time needed for FAKE Christians like you in showing you that you are one of the most biblically ignorant Christians on DebateArt, and yes, equal to Dr. Franklin!  You are either going to step up your game to save yourself further embarrassment amongst the members, or gracefully bow out and remain silent in disgrace, understood?



YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE: “Yes you are. Of course, you show a very shallow understanding of the original sin.”

To be correct in the details of the various understandings of the Original Sin in Christianity, one has to know what division of the Christian faith that one follows. Since YOU ARE TO SCARED AND EMBARRASSED to fill out your biography page, I don’t know your particular division of Christianity, therefore it cannot be addressed because of your child like inability to even “try” to fill out your DebateArt Bio Page, understood?  You must be HIDING something, aren’t you? Only Jesus knows why you are too embarrassed to fill out your biography page!



YOUR EVER SO WANTING AND BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: “Oh dear, it is a problem admitting I don't know everything. (meep meep) Ok, unlike you, I don't put myself on the same level as God. I don't have an answer for all the problems and complexities of the Bible.

I am truly sorry that you admit that you don’t know everything regarding the bible, but at the same time, you proffer that you do!  It is ungodly that you admit that the bible has problems and complexities, which is pure Devil Speak!  Tradesecret, when you read the Bible it gives you simple understanding, where no decoder rings, or crystal balls are needed to understand its simplicity.  In the passage of Deuteronomy 24:16, that you are having an embarrassing time with, it simply states what it does, understood? “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” (Deut 24:16) 

Therefore, in using this passage that is inspired by Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate, Adam and Eve could not pass on the original sin to their children and therefore mankind. Your Devil Speak apologetics on this topic may be entertaining to the equally inept of the Bible, but not for rational thinking TRUE Christians like myself, understood?   Remember one thing, even with your inept mental state relative to the scriptures, the main things are the plain things in the Bible and they are so simple that a young child can understand them.

Tradesecret, you are guilty of the following Jesus inspired passage:  “Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” (Proverbs 30: 5-6)



MY GODLY INSPIRED QUOTE: “Jesus creating sin is most importantly a part of Creation being wholeheartedly connected to the Original SIN of Eve’s transgression.”

YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE RELATIVE TO JESUS AS GOD CREATING SIN AT THE ONSET OF CREATION: “So you say, prove it. Sin is not a thing. It is not part of the creation. Paul tells us that sin was introduced by humanity. the only way around this is to admit Paul was wrong. Will you do that?

I did prove it in my previous post, whereas it must have been way over your head to comprehend its outcome. Since you state that sin IS NOT part of creation, then where did “original sin” come from subsequent to the fall of woman?

Since I have shown you that Paul contradicts himself with saying that it was man (Adam) that committed  the original sin, but then says it was EVE as the origin of the original sin!  Then, where do you stand as the outcome of Paul's said contradiction?  Take your time in explanation, okay?  BEGIN:



MY GODLY LOGICAL QUOTE: “At this specific time on the 6th day of Creation, no one knew about the concept of sin, EXCEPT JESUS SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT AND KNEW IT WAS FORTHCOMING WHEN THE FALL OF MAN / WOMAN  HAPPENED!” 

YOUR SATANIC QUOTE IN RESPONSE TO MINE ABOVE: “The first people understood at this point that to disobey God meant death. It is inconceivable that they did not ask God what death was.  I am not persuaded that they did not understand the concept of sin. 

Oh my, where do I start with your unfounded perceived speculation to save yourself further embarrassment in front of the members of DebateArt?!  Firstly, it is not an absolute for A&E to ask Jesus what death was in anyway whatsoever!  Secondly, it is further not an absolute for A&E to understand the concept of sin, where you base your entire arguement upon PURE SPECULATION, where we are looking for absolutes like in other passages, understood? Huh? Maybe?

SIDEBAR:  Tradesecret, when are you coming out with yet another New Testament, where you will bring in your subjective opinions on how it should have been, where you are Satanically adding to Jesus' words to save FAKE Christians like yourself from further embarrassment?  Can I get a signed copy when you do, okay? Thank you.


CONTINUED >>>>>


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BrotherDThomas
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TRADESECRET, CONTINUED AT YOUR EXPENSE ONCE AGAIN ……



YOUR INEPT BIBLE QUOTE REGARDING SIN:  "Jesus did not create sin. Sin is not part of the created order. It is something altogether different.  Can you send me a box of sin, please? Or tell its colour? Or what is smells like? Or how big or small it is? It does not fit into the visible categories - but nor does it fit into other categories. Sin is not a thing. Therefore it is impossible for it to be created.  

Barring your comical and unfounded speculation once again, when Jesus can create evil in the same vein as your comical notion of having no smells, color, etc., then Jesus can create sin as well. 2+2=4. 

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND I CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." ( Isaiah 45:7) 

"Shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)  

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”  (Colossians 1:16) 

In the above passages, ALL THINGS includes the fact of EVIL AND SIN being created by our Yahweh/Jesus, GET IT?  Do you want to call Jesus a LIAR in the respect of the above passages? Yes?  Your bible ignorance, at your expense, is excused once again!  



YOUR DEFAMATORY QUOTE AGAINST JESUS: “I reject your assertion that because I did not use a capital in him that I have disrespected Jesus.”

The disrespectful mind and FAKE Christian like you would take your position in defaming Jesus by not capitalizing His pronoun name usage!  If you want to continue to slap Jesus in the face, then that is up to you! It is common and respectful to capitalize pronouns referring to our Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate, but to you it is NOT!  HOW DISRESPECTFUL TO JESUS CAN YOU GET, MINION OF SATAN!  

You are no more a TRUE Christian than the ever so biblically inept Dr. Franklin!



A FAKE CHRISTIAN, IF THERE EVER WAS ONE, QUOTE OF YOURS: “I have no reason to rephrase as I don't believe your incorrect assertions.  God is holy and just. He is compassionate and merciful.”

I understand that logic and biblical reality is out of your realm of thinking in being a FAKE Christian, that is a given, therefore you cannot accept through biblical axioms that our Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is the following: greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent God!

Unfortunately for you, your type of MO towards Christianity is making you talk like a psychotic idiot in changing the above descriptions of our Jesus to just “Holy and Just! and "Compassionate and Merciful," laughable at best! 

 

YOUR UNSCHOOLED QUOTE AGAIN: “judgment is distinguished from vindictiveness. Judgment and just is logically and definitively impossibly incompatible with murder.

Seriously, your sophomoric Grade School antics are growing tired within DebateArt!  

MURDER:  to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice to slaughter wantonly.

Our Jesus killed the 1st born of Egypt, STOP.  Our Jesus, unlawful or not, did this act with premeditated malice, STOP. Our Jesus slaughtered wantonly, STOP.  The first born SHOULD NOT be in the equation of having to be murdered in the first place, because they were not responsible as INNOCENT BABIES for what Pharaoh did to displease Jesus, STOP. 

With you taking the position of the above scenario as just “Judgment” by Jesus, is why the churches are losing their followers, because no one after following your position can remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, understood?



YOUR LAUGHABLE AND IGNORANT QUOTE:  God sent Jesus to deal with sin because sin offended God's holiness.

Okay, let me get this straight, so, Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, sent Himself to deal with sin because it offended Himself as Jesus being God?!  LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Oh my, when will your biblical Comedy Act ever stop?!  Your laughable position is like Jesus looking skyward and saying: “Hello, are you there Dad, it's me, you!” Priceless!

Even though your bible ignorance, and rewriting of same, is without bounds, you do provide some great comedy at your expense! LOL!
 


YOUR EXTENDED BIBLE IGNORANCE:  There is a distinction between causing Pharaoh's sin and allowing Pharaoh to sin. Again it would be helpful if you googled - first and second causes which you seem unable to grasp.”

THE BOTTOM LINE IS JESUS IS OMNISCIENT, THEREFORE JESUS KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT PHARAOH WAS GOING TO SIN AND KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO MURDER THE 1ST BORN IN EGYPT!  

I suggest that you reread my statement in the previous post that explains this in a very simple way, that is beneficial to your perceived intelligence. 



YOUR REVEALING UNGODLY QUOTE:  “these are all wonderful verses and each of them are totally consistent with my position.”

As usual with FAKE Christians like you, the chickens always come home to roost at the expense of you this time!  You stated with specificity that your ignorant and specutative rants were “YOUR POSITION!” We thank you for admitting that they are NOT God’s position, but they are yours! Case closed!


Shhhhhhhhh, we all noticed that you didn’t make a comment about your lack of a biography page AGAIN, where it is as blank as your statements within this thread.  We can only wonder in what Jesus thinks of you for not telling others in what division of His faith that you follow. Only Jesus knows in what you are running away from as you disparage His faith once again by remaining silent towards your bio page!  BLASPHEME!


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BrotherDThomas
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Tradesecret,


YOUR UNGODLY AND BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE ONCE AGAIN!!!!:  "I have asked the author to distinguish between first and second causes. He has not done it yet. I doubt he has the ability to understand and differentiate between the two. Yet, the bible clearly talks about both.  Like free will and determinism, both are laid out in the Scriptures side by side - I don't have to understand how they meet or don't meet. Sometimes this causes me pain in the brain - but mostly I ask myself - why is it necessary for me to understand these things. God is not a human that I could understand him. And if I could understand him, then probably he is not a god. "

You can relieve your pain in what brain you have left by understanding what I have stated to you before! FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST when Jesus is omniscient as explicitly shown in the passages below, therefore, why do you still make yourself dumbfounded to this biblical axiom?! HUH?


CHRISTIAN "FREE WILL" FOR DUMMIES: 
To the unbelievable ignorant FAKE Christians like Tradesecret that erroneously think they have “free will,” we don’t!   This is because of the simple concept that are Jewish Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate, and is OMNISCIENT, therefore He knows everything! (1 John 3:20). 

Jesus knows the minutest details of our lives in the past, present and future, for He mentions even knowing when you lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30).  Not only does our Jewish Jesus, as Yahweh  God incarnate, know everything that will occur with us until our demise (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows your very thoughts, even before you speak them! (Psalm 139:4). FREE WILL? NOT!

Our Jewish Jesus, as God, even saw us in the womb, and being omniscient, anything less wouldn’t be the God of the Jews!  Jesus knew what we were going to do before time and when we are to die! (Psalm 139:16) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)  Free Will? NOT!

Since our Jew Jesus omniscience prevails over our assumed actions, he has already determined in how we will act and what you will do IN THE FUTURE 24/7/365, and is basically the “Puppet Master” in pulling our strings as the “Puppet” to do what He wants, and not what we perceive to want! The Jew Jesus as God in being omniscient in even knowing whether we will be going to Heaven or Hell since the beginning of time!  Therefore, our wishful thinking of all of this forgiveness doctrine and other trite sayings of forgiveness is all for naught. (Proverbs 16:33)


“If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.” (1 John 3:20)

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.” (Matthew 10:29-30)

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.” (Isaiah 46:9-10)

“Oh Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with ALL my ways.” (Psalm 139:1-3)

“Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.” (Psalm 139:4)

“Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written.  The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.” (Psalm 139:16)

“The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Psalm 16:33)


THE TIME OF THE CHRISTIANS DEMISE AND WHETHER WE ARE GOING TO HEAVEN OR HELL HAS ALREADY BEEN DETERMINED BY OUR JEW GOD NAMED JESUS SINCE THE BEGINNING, AND WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER IT, PERIOD! SCARY THOUGHTS, AREN’T THEY?!  BUT, THIS IS WHAT A TRUE CHRISTIAN, LIKE MYSELF, HAVE TO ACCEPT IF WE WANT TO FOLLOW OUR SERIAL KILLER SAVIOR, JESUS THE CHRIST, PRAISE!



*************  Tradesecret, heads up, is it possible that you can give us a break from your totally ignorant perceived bible knowledge? I thank you in advance if you will perform this act for the members of DebateArt Religion Forum. It would certainly be appreciated. **************


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#55
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“So is Genesis right or is Paul right?” 
Well, … in Romans 5:12 it was man (Adam) that was responsiblefor the original sin, BUT, in 2 Corinthians 11:3, it was Eve that wasresponsible for the original sin:
You don't even believe in original sin so it is deceitfulfor you to suggest that Paul in the latter verse is attributing it to Eve.  Everyone noticed your running away.  Genesis and Paul were in accord with eachother.   Paul does not suggest Eve wasresponsible for the Original sin. He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible.
“Oh dear, it is a problem admitting I don't knoweverything.
I am truly sorry that you admit that you don’t knoweverything regarding the bible, but at the same time, you proffer that youdo!  It is ungodly that you admit thatthe bible has problems and complexities, which is pure Devil Speak!    In Deuteronomy 24:16, it simply states whatit does. “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor childrenput to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” (Deut 24:16)
Firstly, stop telling lies.  I don't proffer to know everything in thebible. Secondly, conceding that the bible contains complexities and problemsfor the reader is not devil speak. Even Peter said Paul spoke difficult things-  Thirdly, I take the view that Deut24:16 is a passage directed towards the children of Israel.  Its direction does not apply to God. 
Therefore, in using this passage that is inspired by Jesusas Yahweh God incarnate, Adam and Eve could not pass on the original sin totheir children and therefore mankind. ...  Remember one thing, ..., the main things are the plain things in theBible and they are so.
You don't believe in original sin. you have not proved ityet. You confuse covenant headship with sin. Is this why you ran away from myquestion to you to discuss the difference between sin and sins?
“Jesus creating sin is most importantly a part of Creationbeing wholeheartedly connected to the Original SIN of Eve’s transgression.”
Sin was not part of the creation. At the end of thecreation,God called all that he created good and very good. If sin was part ofthis then sin is good. If this is the case, why does Jesus need to die forpeople's sin? In any event, sin is defined as "that which falls short ofGod's standards". So, if God created sin - can you explain how a perfectGod could do anything beneath his own perfect standards?
“So you say, prove it. Sin is not a thing. It is not partof the creation. Paul tells us that sin was introduced by humanity. the onlyway around this is to admit Paul was wrong. Will you do that?
I did prove it in my previous post, whereas it must havebeen way over your head to comprehend its outcome. Since you state that sin ISNOT part of creation, then where did “original sin” come from subsequent to thefall of woman?
What did you prove? Did you prove Paul wrong? Seriously!So you don't believe that Paul's words are the words of God? You really have aproblem reading and understanding. Again let me repeat it - God did not createsin. It was not part of the original creation. Everything God made was good andvery good. Sin is by its definition not good. It is the error that fallsbeneath God's standard. So if God created sin in accordance with yourridiculous assertion - then God fell beneath his own standards and lied.
 
The original sin as taught by the church occurred whenAdam ate of the fruit. It is true that Eve ate prior to Adam - and it is alsotrue that first can mean original. (it does not always mean first inchronological order sometimes it has to do with authoritative order - a similarnotion is about how Jesus is the first born son - not meaning first inchronological order but in respect of pre-eminence.) In this case however - itis Adam who is held responsible for the original sin - by representation all ofhis covenant - wife and children. They became dead to God - covenantal death.But you still need to be able to distinguish between sin and sins. And you justkeep running away from the question.  Adam committed the original sin as covenant head. Eve sinned like youand me. There is a difference. We don' t commit the original sin over and overagain. but we do sin. You need to be able distinguish between the two - and itseems you are unable to do so.
I have shown you that Paul contradicts himself with sayingthat it was man (Adam) that committed  the original sin, but then says it was EVE as the origin of the originalsin!  Then, where do you stand as theoutcome of Paul's said contradiction? 
Well actually you did not show how Paul contradictshimself. You simply mixed up two completely different concepts - a common errorand mistake of ignorant people - and tried to suggest that one contradicts eachother. I have explained it.  Now it isyour turn.  
“At this specific time on the 6th day of Creation, no oneknew about the concept of sin, EXCEPT JESUS SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT AND KNEW ITWAS FORTHCOMING WHEN THE FALL OF MAN / WOMAN  HAPPENED!”
“The first people understood at this point that to disobey Godmeant death. It is inconceivable that they did not ask God what death was.  I am not persuaded that they did notunderstand the concept of sin.
Firstly, it is not an absolute for A&E to ask Jesus whatdeath was in anyway whatsoever!  Secondly, it is further not an absolute for A&E to understand theconcept of sin, where you base your entire argument upon PURE SPECULATION,
So you concede it is not an absolute - you agree that myposition is plausible. My position is not speculation. Adam knew it was wrongto eat the fruit. For him to know it was wrong meant he must have understoodthat concept. Furthermore - he knew it would bring him death. For that to be areal threat - he must have known what death was. so Adam knew wrong and rightbefore the fall - he knew about sin and he knew what it would bring. this isnot speculation - it is there in the bible - perhaps you should read it.

#56
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Jesus did not create sin. Sin is not part of the created order. Therefore it is impossible for it to be created.  

Barring your comical and unfounded speculation once again, when Jesus can create evil in the same vein as your comical notion of having no smells, color, etc., then Jesus can create sin as well. 2+2=4. 
You are mixing up two completely different concepts. God cannot sin. He cannot create sin. Sin is a falling beneath God's standards - that is its definition - so it is logically and conceptually impossible for God to do or create it.  On the other hand - you quote the standard Isaiah 45 and Amos references to God creating or making evil. You need to establish that evil is the same as sin. I don't take the view that the two things are the same at all.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”  (Colossians 1:16) 

This verse is NOT talking about sin. Sin is not a thing. That is something you just don't get. Evil does not have to fall beneath God's standards - but sin does. Evil is also a perception. What is evil to me may be good to someone else.  What is sin to me is always sin against God. 

I have no reason to rephrase as I don't believe your incorrect assertions.  God is holy and just. He is compassionate and merciful.”

I understand that logic and biblical reality is out of your realm of thinking in being a FAKE Christian, that is a given, therefore you cannot accept through biblical axioms that our Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is the following: greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent God!
That may well be your god - but this is not the God of the bible. In fact your god sounds like Satan - and I am confident that your god will spend eternity in the Hells of Fire which has been reserved for him.  

“judgment is distinguished from vindictiveness. Judgment and just is logically and definitively impossibly incompatible with murder.

MURDER:  to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice to slaughter wantonly.
Actually murder is the killing of a human by a human. And it is not just the killing - but an "unlawful" killing.  This is where your ignorance of law is laughable. Did you know that cows and horses and dogs cannot be charged with murder, nor can cars or machines or computers or even robots? God is not a human.  But not just this element escapes you - but the next one does as well. UNLAWFUL. You seem to think unlawful is irrelevant. You are not a theologian. You are not a lawyer. You are simply a fool.  God is lawfully able to put to death any sinner on this planet. 
With you taking the position of the above scenario as just “Judgment” by Jesus, is why the churches are losing their followers, because no one after following your position can remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, understood?
My church is growing. And it is because we teach the bible. Our world relies on a just system. God has a just system. 

God sent Jesus to deal with sin because sin offended God's holiness.

The bible teaches the Trinity. Your humour is not funny. 

There is a distinction between causing Pharaoh's sin and allowing Pharaoh to sin. Again it would be helpful if you googled - first and second causes which you seem unable to grasp.”

THE BOTTOM LINE IS JESUS IS OMNISCIENT, THEREFORE JESUS KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT PHARAOH WAS GOING TO SIN AND KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO MURDER THE 1ST BORN IN EGYPT!  
first and second causes??????? figure out what it means. 

You really don't like it when people prove you wrong. You turn into a dunderhead. 


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@BrotherDThomas
"I have asked the author to distinguish between first and second causes. He has not done it yet. I doubt he has the ability to understand and differentiate between the two. Yet, the bible clearly talks about both.  Like free will and determinism, both are laid out in the Scriptures side by side - I don't have to understand how they meet or don't meet. Sometimes this causes me pain in the brain - but mostly I ask myself - why is it necessary for me to understand these things. God is not a human that I could understand him. And if I could understand him, then probably he is not a god. "

FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST
If you read my post above you will know I said free will is complex. Yet without free will - man is not responsible for his sin. This is the notion you have to learn to comprehend. In any event, you do believe in free will - otherwise every comment on here directed at anyone is pointless. So stop lying. 

CHRISTIAN "FREE WILL" FOR DUMMIES: 
This is because of the simple concept that are Jewish Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate, and is OMNISCIENT, therefore He knows everything! (1 John 3:20). 
Just because Jesus knows everything does not mean we don't have free will. 

Jesus knows the minutest details of our lives in the past, present and future, for He mentions even knowing when you lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30).  Not only does our Jewish Jesus, as Yahweh  God incarnate, know everything that will occur with us until our demise (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows your very thoughts, even before you speak them! (Psalm 139:4). FREE WILL? NOT!
just because God knows all things - does not mean we don't have free will.  God holds us responsible for our choices. Not because of his choices. 

Our Jewish Jesus, as God, even saw us in the womb, and being omniscient, anything less wouldn’t be the God of the Jews!  Jesus knew what we were going to do before time and when we are to die! (Psalm 139:16) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)  Free Will? NOT!
I repeat what I said above. 

Everyone of those verses I refer to as well in order to refute persons who think they can will themselves into Heaven. I think free will is true - but I don't think free will is unlimited. 

We have the free will to do what we want to- this is why we are responsible for own sins - and why God is just in punishing sin. Yet, I don't agree that we have the free will to do the right thing. Our sin nature - inherited from Adam makes us do what we want for ourselves. But it never wants to repent before a holy God.  Like the bank robber walking out a bank with a gun and a bag of money - we see God the holy police man - and what do we do? What should we do - we should drop the bag and the money - walk across to the police officer and hand ourselves in. What do we do? We run for the hills. Why? Because we see God as the big bad policeman who is going to throw us into prison. I think that is the picture of God that you present. A God who cannot be trusted - a God who is vindictive. A God who is not consistent. A god who is corrupt and evil.  Yet the bible talks of a God who is just and holy but one who is also merciful and loving. You never talk of a loving God, only an evil God. 

We cant come to God - because we don't want to come to God. Yet God calls us to himself through his son who died on the cross for the sins of the world. By trusting in Jesus - that he suffered and died for my sins - I don't have to see God as the police in the sky anymore - because the just God has had my sins dealt with - and offers me grace and mercy. Free will is complex.  Yet without it - God is EVIL and untrustworthy. 

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@Tradesecret
Sin is only an assumption.

Which varies, depending on how we were conditioned.
#59
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@zedvictor4
Sin is only an assumption.

Which varies, depending on how we were conditioned.
Sin is not an assumption. Sin is anything that falls short of the standards of God. Now we might in our culture because we have been conditioned think that sin is an assumption and depends upon how we were conditioned - but that is a cultural matter.  It does not change the fact that sin itself does have a definition. 

Typically people in our culture laugh at sin. Either we minimise or we exaggerate. Either it becomes a small white lie or it is murder. In either event - we don't think it is relevant to us. Yet, sin is the problem with this world. If we were to get rid of sin - then the world would be perfect. In other words, it is the error that prevents the world from being perfect. This makes sense because sin is defined as the falling short of the perfect standard of God. 

Its historic meaning is pictured by an arrow falling short of its target. If the arrow hits the target there is no sin. If it falls short - there is sin. 

Sin however is an offence against God. If you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in sin. You might believe in evil or you might believe that people do awful and immoral things - and you might even call it sin for want of a better word - but that in my understanding of the bible is not sin. It is better termed an  offence.  In that situation it would be more helpful to talk about sin being an assumption or a conditioning.  
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@Tradesecret
@zedvictor4



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Tradesecret,



IN PART, YOUR LAUGHABLE AND LYING POST #55:  “You don't even believe in original sin so it is deceitfulfor you to suggest that Paul in the latter verse is attributing it to Eve.  Everyone noticed your running away.  Genesis and Paul were in accord with eachother.   Paul does not suggest Eve wasresponsible for the Original sin. He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible.’

To make it somewhat easier for you, I’ll address your blatant bible ignorance one topic at a time. You can thank me later.


How much proverbial egg can you withstand upon your face because of your traditional insidious wishful thinking and your total bible ignorance pertaining to EVE not initiating the original sin?  Don’t you realize the membership is watching your outright stupidity regarding this topic?

You comically stated that “He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible." Huh?  Read the passages below, therefore how can Adam be responsible subsequent to EVE eating the forbidden fruit FIRST AND FORMOST in initiating the original sin! Hello, anybody home today, obviously not! How utterly embarrassing for you once again!


1.  Who ate the forbidden fruit FIRST before Adam did, therefore initiating the original sin FIRST?  Correct, it was EVE as the transgressor“

"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” ( Genesis 3:6))


2.  Who agreed that EVE ate the forbidden fruit FIRST and then gave it to Adam? Correct, it was Jesus with His inspired word!

“To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ (Genesis 3:17)


3.  Who agreed that Adam was not deceived, but EVE was the FIRST to be deceived and transgress in initiating the original sin?  Correct, it was Timothy!  

“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:14)


4.  Who agreed with the aforementioned passages that EVE was the FIRST to sin, therefore being the originator of original sin?  Correct, it was Paul!  

“But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” ( 2 Corinthians 11:3)

To help you along in truly understanding the English language and reading comprehension, I want you to join and complete an online "Reading Comprehension Class" before you remove one foot to insert the other again regarding the verses above, agreed?  The following link will take you to your severely needed class: https://www.universalclass.com/i/course/reading-comprehension-101.htm

Satan only knows in how you can live with such stupidity relative to the JUDEO-Christian bible, where you fall to tradition over the centuries, instead of actually reading the bible yourself. You are an embarrassment to all Christians by calling Jesus’ inspired words herein AS LIES relative to EVE being the culprit to initiating original sin!   Rest assured, you will pay upon Judgment Day!  Does the Unpardonable Sin ring a bell? Yeah, it does!


Once again, may I plead with you to give this forum a needed break from your Devil Speak and bible ignorance? It would certainly be appreciated, thanking you in advance. 


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