The atheist forum

#31

Snoopy

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08.01.2019 06:36PM

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@SkepticalOne

I observe topics of religion needn't be from a perspective of belief.

That's something I wasn't implying if that's what you are trying to get at. I guess I'm off on a tangent from the forum topic.

#32

Snoopy

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08.01.2019 06:45PM

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@ludofl3x

Please give me an example of anything else where in order for me to understand it, I have to understand it already. Where it is impossible for me to figure out the answer for myself without accepting someone else's answer (that cannot be demonstrated in any way) as correct already. These are answers you can't question.

I'm not saying you can't question things, but as a matter of practicality. You are framing this as if you've already ascertained that something is literally impossible for you to figure out. You can't go back in history and witness a demonstration, if that might satisfy this line of questioning.

#33

SkepticalOne

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08.01.2019 06:46PM

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@janesix

Discussion can lead to a better understanding of our own views as well as those of others. This can lead to better arguments or acceptance of a flawed view. Without going further, this alone makes the world a better place, but having a better grasp of a position and an improved ability to express it makes larger audiences less daunting.

#34

ludofl3x

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08.01.2019 06:48PM

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@Snoopy

That isn't what I'm asking. If there's a god that's timeless, it should not require time travel to demonstrate it. It's either there or it isn't. Can you offer any demonstration at all?

If I told you I owned a rhinoceros, and I rode it to work today, would you believe me?

#35

SkepticalOne

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08.01.2019 06:48PM

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@Snoopy

That's something I wasn't implying if that's what you are trying to get at. I guess I'm off on a tangent from the forum topic.

In that case, I guess I didn't understand altogether what you were saying. We'll get it right next time! 😄

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#36

janesix

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08.01.2019 06:49PM

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@SkepticalOne

What would be your plan of action for making the world a better place, starting from there?

#37

Snoopy

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08.01.2019 06:49PM

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its not always appropriate for you to take everyone off on some empirical tangent. Imagine you're the one kid with ten thousand questions whose holding up the class from getting through the lesson.
I think this is a false equivalence: we are under no time pressure as in a classroom. And a student's questions are only annoying if you can't answer them, I think. "Why does gravity work" has a defined (if complicated) answer. This is exactly where we SHOULD be going off on tangents.

I'm not sure if anyone actually knows why gravity works. We do have theories incorporating relationships with the concept.

#38

ludofl3x

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08.01.2019 07:01PM

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@Snoopy

Ok, but there is significant demonstration of gravity, including formulas, multiple and consistent demonstrations of it working according to these calculations, consistently across the universe as far as we can tell. No one says "well, that's what it is, it's just gravity, and if you don't get it, it's because you don't really WANT to get it." And the best part is if you want to offer an alternative to gravity, you're free to do so. Scientists don't say "how dare you question my understanding of gravity." They say "show your work." When I ask you to show your work, you say "You can't ask that, you're not a true believer so you'll never believe it."

#39

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:08PM

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@ludofl3x

That isn't what I'm asking. If there's a god that's timeless, it should not require time travel to demonstrate it. It's either there or it isn't. Can you offer any demonstration at all?

Everything is expected to be the way it is. We can't go back to the times of Moses and talk to a bush. We can't see Jesus go to his crucifixion. The Jews and the Christians are still among us though.

If I told you I owned a rhinoceros, and I rode it to work today, would you believe me?

Totally random but, that would be awesome. I love it when people ride ridiculous things to work.

#40

ludofl3x

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08.01.2019 07:10PM

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@Snoopy

That isn't what I'm asking. If there's a god that's timeless, it should not require time travel to demonstrate it. It's either there or it isn't. Can you offer any demonstration at all?
Everything is expected to be the way it is. We can't go back to the times of Moses and talk to a bush. We can't see Jesus go to his crucifixion.

So, then short answer is "no"?

Totally random but, hat would be awesome. I love it when people ride ridiculous things to work.

It WAS awesome. Do you believe me?

#41

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:12PM

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@ludofl3x

It WAS awesome. Do you believe me?

No, why do you ask?

#42

ludofl3x

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ludofl3x

08.01.2019 07:16PM

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@Snoopy

Why do you not believe me? Actually more importantly, what would convince you?

#43

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:17PM

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@ludofl3x

There's no reason in particular.

#44

ludofl3x

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ludofl3x

08.01.2019 07:18PM

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@Snoopy

What would convince you I rode my rhino to work today?

#45

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:19PM

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@ludofl3x

I don't know, to be honest.

#46

ludofl3x

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ludofl3x

08.01.2019 07:29PM

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@Snoopy

Really? I think you're being a little slippery here. If I took a picture of me (presuming you knew what I looked like, who I was, etc.) on top of my rhino, in my company parking lot, with my workbag, holding today's newspaper, you don't think that'd be at least enough evidence for you to say "feasible based on this evidence." If I showed you receipts for rhino food, a ticket I got from a police officer two days ago for riding an unauthorized animal on city streets and not cleaning up after it, and a local newspaper account of my rhino causing all sorts of problems in a parking lot, you wouldn't think "definitely him, reasonable to assume he is riding a rhino to work"?

My point is you'd demand evidence of this, right, in order to even begin to believe it? And even then you'd think "Well, he could be faking it, photoshop, friend at the newspaper," etc.? Wouldn't that be reasonable? THen I said Ok, snoopster, I know you don't believe me. Here's what I'll do: you can come to my house and ride my rhino to YOUR work. If you did that, then you'd have no choice but to be convinced, because you'd experienced my riding rhino first hand, right?

We know rhinos exist. This is beyond dispute. You would still demand proof because my claim is so outlandish, even though (a) people have jobs (b) people have animals (c) rhinos exist and (d) people use animals as transport sometimes. Is that fair to say?

You do not demand this same level of proof or evidence for your religion. Your answer is "you have to believe it before you believe it."

#47

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:33PM

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@ludofl3x

Oh, I think its feasible if you were wondering about that. The first thing that crossed my mind is that you would have to have an outdoor job where the animal could be fed, watered, and cleaned after, not going to some parking lot.

#48

ludofl3x

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ludofl3x

08.01.2019 07:35PM

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@Snoopy

I'm sorry, but I am having a hard time believing you're engaging in a good faith discussion on the topic. You'd believe me SIMPLY if I told you I had a job as a rancher who rides a rhino? You'd believe it on its face based only on that information? I hate to think the religious are all this credulous, it's too much of a stereotype. But you're making it tough.

#49

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:37PM

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@ludofl3x

I don't imagine I would believe you. I've been around rodeo, and there are honorable people who would ride anything.

#50

SkepticalOne

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08.01.2019 07:40PM

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@janesix

If we strive to hold true beliefs (and are willing to put our views up to scrutiny), then the world is a better place.

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#51

janesix

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08.01.2019 07:44PM

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@SkepticalOne

That is quaint. I don't really believe that.changing the world takes action.

#52

ludofl3x

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ludofl3x

08.01.2019 07:49PM

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@Snoopy

Thanks for proving my point: you would accept literally no proposition that's far, far, far less outlandish than "magic being spoke universe into existence", without evidence and reason to do so. And you're also not being very sporting about the idea of debate with someone who disagrees with you, at all. I almost feel like I've bullied you, I'm sorry.

#53

SkepticalOne

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SkepticalOne

08.01.2019 07:52PM

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@janesix

I don't really believe that.changing the world takes action.

Ok. What does it take in your view?

#54

Snoopy

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Snoopy

08.01.2019 07:59PM

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@ludofl3x

Thanks for proving my point: you would accept literally no proposition that's far, far, far less outlandish than "magic being spoke universe into existence", without evidence and reason to do so. And you're also not being very sporting about the idea of debate with someone who disagrees with you, at all. I almost feel like I've bullied you, I'm sorry.

You'll have to explain my unsportsmanlike conduct. I've met people into formal debate, but have little experience with it outside of philosophical consideration. As far as I'm concerned I've been having normal discourse with you.

The notion is especially unconducive to taking literally since there was not any recognizable medium through which to speak.

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#55

janesix

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08.01.2019 08:01PM

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@SkepticalOne

Becoming vocal, even political. Look at Richard Dawkins. He writes books, has debates and discussions publically. He started out as an unknown mediocre biologist. Now he has hundreds of thousands of followers. He has probably changed many minds on the subject of religion. He is a household name.

#56

SkepticalOne

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SkepticalOne

08.01.2019 08:10PM

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@janesix

Becoming vocal, even political. Look at Richard Dawkins. He writes books, has debates and discussions publically.

I would argue this is an action. This is beside my point though. Beliefs inform actions, so it makes sense to evaluate beliefs for validity. That happens here.

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#57

janesix

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