There'll never be closure on whether God exists

Author: Fallaneze

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@3RU7AL
Attempting to verify someone else's mind is basically a subjective value judgement (Turing-Test/Voight-Kampff).
Our posts, emails ergo all communication verifies and is evidence the metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts quantised or quantified in some other way than communication of abstract?

No.

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@Athias
Each person can only verify their own mind, through direct experience (private GNOSIS).
So then, it is empirically verifiable.
Not exactly.  Perhaps I should be more specific and stick to "scientifically verifiable" (independently reproducible).

It may not bear the capacity to be controlled for independent of their own experience, but that doesn't mean it can't be verified.
Ok, but when your claim is regarding (pure, unverifiable) GNOSIS, it is indistinguishable from OPINION.

Its veracity and their direct experience are fundamentally and inextricably tied.
Private information (GNOSIS) is indistinguishable from OPINION.
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@ebuc
Our posts, emails ergo all communication verifies and is evidence the metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts quantised or quantified in some other way than communication of abstract?

No.
You might be a sophisticated AI.
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@Athias
Attempting to verify someone else's mind is basically a subjective value judgement (Turing-Test/Voight-Kampff).
What could you verify independent or isolated from the person's experience?
What can you verify independent of your own experience?  No-thing.

The mind is a logical necessity because its veracity is axiomatic, right?
Not exactly.  "The Mind" is a logical necessity because you cannot doubt, or think, without it.

"The Mind" is a fundamental prerequisite to your experience and comprehension.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Ok, but when your claim is regarding (pure, unverifiable) GNOSIS, it is indistinguishable from OPINION.

Private information (GNOSIS) is indistinguishable from OPINION.
Opinion and "truth" aren't mutually exclusive.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
"The Mind" is a logical necessity because you cannot doubt, or think, without it.

"The Mind" is a fundamental prerequisite to your experience and comprehension.

Exactly. So then, do you not presuppose the veracity of the mind because one can think, doubt, experience and comprehend?
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@Athias
Ok, but when your claim is regarding (pure, unverifiable) GNOSIS, it is indistinguishable from OPINION.

Private information (GNOSIS) is indistinguishable from OPINION.
Opinion and "truth" aren't mutually exclusive.
REAL-TRUE-FACTS (truth) must be scientifically verified.

OPINION must be unverified private information (GNOSIS).

(IFF) an OPINION is verified scientifically (THEN) it instantly converts to REAL-TRUE-FACT (and is no longer considered OPINION).
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@Athias
"The Mind" is a logical necessity because you cannot doubt, or think, without it.

"The Mind" is a fundamental prerequisite to your experience and comprehension.
Exactly. So then, do you not presuppose the veracity of the mind because one can think, doubt, experience and comprehend?
Not all thoughts are created with equal validity (efficacy).

There is a distinct and important difference between REAL-TRUE-FACTS and HALLUCINATION-ILLUSION-OPINION.
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@3RU7AL
OPINION must be unverified private information
From where have you gotten that description?


OPINION must be unverified private information (GNOSIS).

(IFF) an OPINION is verified scientifically (THEN) it instantly converts to REAL-TRUE-FACT (and is no longer considered OPINION).
What about professional opinions? Doctors' opinions? Are those mutually exclusive from "truth?"


Not all thoughts are created with equal validity (efficacy).
I do not presume to entertain this metric. I merely solicit an answer to whether the posit of the mind's being a logical necessity is necessarily informed by the presupposition of the mind's veracity.

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@Athias
OPINION must be unverified private information
From where have you gotten that description?
Logic.  An OPINION is something that's exclusively known to the person holding the OPINION.
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@Athias
OPINION must be unverified private information (GNOSIS).

(IFF) an OPINION is verified scientifically (THEN) it instantly converts to REAL-TRUE-FACT (and is no longer considered OPINION).
What about professional opinions? Doctors' opinions? Are those mutually exclusive from "truth?"
A professional opinion, like a legal opinion, is only verifiable in as much as it is written or spoken. 

The "truth-value" (sincerity) of that OPINION is unverified.

It's a REAL-TRUE-FACT that those specific words were submitted as a "professional opinion", but the "truth-value" (sincerity) of those specific words is unverified.
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@Athias
Not all thoughts are created with equal validity (efficacy).
I do not presume to entertain this metric. I merely solicit an answer to whether the posit of the mind's being a logical necessity is necessarily informed by the presupposition of the mind's veracity.
Are you asking if "The Mind" verifies itself?
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Logic.  An OPINION is something that's exclusively known to the person holding the OPINION.
That's not true at all. Perhaps "experienced" is the better term. Because if I were to tell you of an opinion I hold, you'd know it. I still don't understand how subjective judgement necessarily is excluded from "truth." You did state that by verifiable you mean scientifically verifiable. Is scientifically verifiable the same as real, fact, and "true"?

A professional opinion, like a legal opinion, is only verifiable in as much as it is written or spoken. 
So, for example, if a physician were to prescribe a regimen in accordance to his professional opinion that would help one deal with pain management, its being an "opinion" necessarily excludes it from truth?

The "truth-value" (sincerity) of that OPINION is unverified.
I'm not speaking of sincerity. The intention is not the focus.

It's a REAL-TRUE-FACT that those specific words were submitted as a "professional opinion", but the "truth-value" (sincerity) of those specific words is unverified.
All that means is that it's not scientifically verified. Why does that necessarily exclude it from "truth"?

Are you asking if "The Mind" verifies itself?
Sort of... I'm more so asking: is the Mind self-evident?


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@3RU7AL
You might be a sophisticated AI.
R Penrose laid out clearly the four aspects of consciousness --ergo access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts---   in" Emperors New Mind" not that I can recall them now, as I always have trouble recalling them,

1} appreciation of art,

Oh geez my mind is gone blank, however, I do have the book around somewhere. Do you recall them 3Bru?


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@Athias
Because if I were to tell you of an opinion I hold, you'd know it.
Not necessarily.  I have no way of determining your sincerity and even if I accept your sincerity prima facie, I have no way of determining if and or when you might "change-your-mind" (invalidating your previously stated opinion).

I can only know what you report.

Just like someone who publishes a false (unverifiable) story.

The "words-on-the-page" are a "fact" but that doesn't make the content of the-story-itself "factual".
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@Athias
A professional opinion, like a legal opinion, is only verifiable in as much as it is written or spoken. 
So, for example, if a physician were to prescribe a regimen in accordance to his professional opinion that would help one deal with pain management, its being an "opinion" necessarily excludes it from truth?
A professional opinion is not a "fact".  A patient may or may not get well or respond positively to prescribed treatment.

A prescription is a HYPOTHESIS.  It's basically a prediction, which isn't "true" in-and-of-itself.
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@Athias
The mind either functions or it does not.

Therefore the mind is either self-evident or not, as the case may be.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
Are you asking if "The Mind" verifies itself?
Sort of... I'm more so asking: is the Mind self-evident?
"The Mind" is a logical necessity.

It's contingent (IFF) you can doubt (THEN) you can think (THEREFORE) something (non-nothing) must be thinking (we choose to call this source of thinking "The Mind").

We can't actually say anything else about "The Mind".  We can't say where it is or what it consists of.  All we KNOW is that it "thinks".
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Not necessarily.  I have no way of determining your sincerity and even if I accept your sincerity prima facie, I have no way of determining if and or when you might "change-your-mind" (invalidating your previously stated opinion).
That doesn't change the fact that one (or you) can know the opinion of another. Sure, a person can "lie" or be "insincere"; a person can also be forthcoming and sincere. You're hung up on empirical verifying the opinion through your own subjective experience. But under the circumstances where a person who shares an opinion is being sincere, you'd know the opinion. You may not be able to verify the sincerity through experience, but that doesn't change that the person was being sincere.

A professional opinion is not a "fact".  A patient may or may not get well or respond positively to prescribed treatment.
I never suggested that it was a fact. I'm countermanding your posit that an opinion is necessarily excluded from fact. And your second sentence supports that contention.

A prescription is a HYPOTHESIS.  It's basically a prediction, which isn't "true" in-and-of-itself.
Correct. But its truth is consequential: if it it worked, then it's "true;" if it didn't, then it's not.

"The Mind" is a logical necessity.

It's contingent (IFF) you can doubt (THEN) you can think (THEREFORE) something (non-nothing) must be thinking (we choose to call this source of thinking "The Mind").

We can't actually say anything else about "The Mind".  We can't say where it is or what it consists of.  All we KNOW is that it "thinks".
Yes, and because we can "think" and "doubt," we can posit a priori that "the mind is" is a true, right?


Athias
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@zedvictor4
The mind either functions or it does not.

Therefore the mind is either self-evident or not, as the case may be.
To concede this point is to concede that the content of the mind either is self-evident or not, and given this argument by 3RU7AL:

Not all thoughts are created with equal validity (efficacy).
I don't think that's a point 3RU7AL is willing to concede just yet.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
Not necessarily.  I have no way of determining your sincerity and even if I accept your sincerity prima facie, I have no way of determining if and or when you might "change-your-mind" (invalidating your previously stated opinion).
That doesn't change the fact that one (or you) can know the opinion of another. Sure, a person can "lie" or be "insincere"; a person can also be forthcoming and sincere. You're hung up on empirical verifying the opinion through your own subjective experience. But under the circumstances where a person who shares an opinion is being sincere, you'd know the opinion. You may not be able to verify the sincerity through experience, but that doesn't change that the person was being sincere.
You also seem to be glossing-over-the-point that even 100% sincere opinions are not REAL-TRUE-FACTS.

If a doctor says, "They'll be back on their feet in a week", that is not a statement of FACT.

It is a FACT (if it is verifiable scientifically) that they "made that statement", but that-does-not-make "the statement" TRUE.

The statement itself is OPINION and will forever be OPINION. 

An OPINION can never be simultaneously BOTH an OPINION (AND) a FACT.
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@3RU7AL
An OPINION can never be simultaneously BOTH an OPINION (AND) a FACT.
Substantiate this.

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@Athias
Any statement that is scientifically verifiable (and or logically necessary) is a REAL-TRUE-FACT (Quanta).

An OPINION is, by definition, PRIVATE-PERSONAL-INFORMATION (GNOSIS, Qualia) and is therefore NOT scientifically verifiable (and or logically necessary).

Please challenge my axioms (or definitions) and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
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@Athias
A prescription is a HYPOTHESIS.  It's basically a prediction, which isn't "true" in-and-of-itself.
Correct. But its truth is consequential: if it it worked, then it's "true;" if it didn't, then it's not.
There is no such thing as a "true" HYPOTHESIS.

HYPOTHESIS is just a synonym for "a guess".

A HYPOTHESIS is not a REAL-TRUE-FACT, it is an OPINION.

We often conflate "accurate/inaccurate-predictions" with "true/false-predictions" but this is a CATEGORY ERROR.

Because there is no way to verify the "truth" (and it can't properly be considered "true" without scientific verification and or logical necessity) of a prediction BEFORE "the actual fact of the event predicted", it is inaccurate to call it a "true-prediction" UNTIL AFTER "THE FACT".

At which point it is no longer an OPINION.  At that point, it is a simple statement of FACT.

We often like to say the prediction was "true" the whole time, but this is not the case. 

The prediction only became (crossed the line from "prediction" to) a statement of fact, when the actual, scientifically verifiable fact actually happened.

At which point it is no longer an OPINION.
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@Athias
Yes, and because we can "think" and "doubt," we can posit a priori that "the mind is" is a true, right?
Only that it contains some inescapable, undeniable truth(s).

We cannot conclude that it is 100% true.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Any statement that is scientifically verifiable (and or logically necessary) is a REAL-TRUE-FACT (Quanta).

An OPINION is, by definition, PRIVATE-PERSONAL-INFORMATION (GNOSIS, Qualia) and is therefore NOT scientifically verifiable (and or logically necessary).

Please challenge my axioms (or definitions) and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
So once again, I ask: is scientifically verifiable the same as truth?

Because there is no way to verify the "truth" (and it can't properly be considered "true" without scientific verification and or logical necessity)
So the "truth" is that which is "scientifically verifiable" and/or logically necessary?

it is inaccurate to call it a "true-prediction" UNTIL AFTER "THE FACT".
Not correct. If the prediction turns out to be true, after being scientifically verified, then it was always true. Case in point: you, I, and some other visit an old, abandoned, Victorian home to which we've never been. In there we find a locked chest. Each of us render an opinion on the content of that chest. You state that there might be emeralds, rubies, and diamonds in the chest; I state that I believe there to be nothing but red corsets, the other companion states that there are old family photos. It turns out that our companion was correct--there were old family photos. Was it inaccurate to state that family photos were the content of that chest? No. Because before "verification," old family photos being the content of that chest was true. So making the opinion that there were old family photos in the chest was "true" or accurate independent of verification. 

At which point it is no longer an OPINION.  At that point, it is a simple statement of FACT.
You still have not substantiated how "Real, Fact, and/or True" is necessarily scientifically verifiable (and/or logically necessary) and how "Real, Fact, and/or True necessarily excludes opinion. You've argued that opinion is indistinguishable from Gnosis (private information/subjective experience) and you've argued before that objectivity is logically incoherent. So where does "Real, Fact, and/or True" lie?

Only that it contains some inescapable, undeniable truth(s).

We cannot conclude that it is 100% true.
How can you conceive a proportion when your claim is that you cannot perceive the whole?


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@Athias
So once again, I ask: is scientifically verifiable the same as truth?
REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.

REAL must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.

TRUE must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.

FACTS must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.
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@Athias
Was it inaccurate to state that family photos were the content of that chest?
An OPINION has no "truth-value".  It is neither "true" nor "false" by itself.

No. Because before "verification," old family photos being the content of that chest was true.
Before verification, it was pure speculation (which is not "true").

So making the opinion that there were old family photos in the chest was "true" or accurate independent of verification. 
Independent of verification, it is merely an OPINION.

Good example by-the-way.
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@Athias
You still have not substantiated how "Real, Fact, and/or True" is necessarily scientifically verifiable (and/or logically necessary) and how "Real, Fact, and/or True necessarily excludes opinion.
It's an ontological choice.  Durable, reliable, coherent ideas and or events and or things are things that can be labeled "REAL-TRUE-FACTS".

You've argued that opinion is indistinguishable from Gnosis (private information/subjective experience) and you've argued before that objectivity is logically incoherent. So where does "Real, Fact, and/or True" lie?
It can be found at the intersection we call "intersubjectivity".  It inhabits the ontological interpersonal space we share with "our fellow humans".

For example, Plato's Parable of the MMORPG. [LINK]
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@Athias
Only that it contains some inescapable, undeniable truth(s).

We cannot conclude that it is 100% true.
How can you conceive a proportion when your claim is that you cannot perceive the whole?
How can you see a glass of water if you can't see ALL water?