There'll never be closure on whether God exists

Author: Fallaneze

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Athias
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@3RU7AL
Everything that is conceived and perceived has being (by definition); therefore they must exist. It's an unsavory logical consequence, but frequent mentions of "Big Foot" undermine only the arguments which propose that God exists and Big Foot necessarily must not. To my understanding, no one here has made such an argument.

Or perhaps, you're equating the belief in God to the belief in Big Foot. That is, God is an "urban legend"; this assertion is necessarily misinformed because, as I've gathered, you believe in neither; therefore, you have little understanding on what it entails to believe in either, much less equate them. In "reality," you're just equating your disbelief in God to your disbelief in Big Foot, and are attempting to hold your opponents responsible for that.
ebuc
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@Athias
Everything that is conceived and perceived has being (by definition); therefore they must exist.

Three primary types of existence and you got one of them;

1} .." conceived "... = metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts via spirit-of-intent

-------------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------------------

2} eternally existent, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that surrounds/embraces the following,

3} eternally existent, yet finite, occupied space Universe/God.
ethang5
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@3RU7AL
Right, also regarding your position on "the original intent of the author"...
It isn't a "position" jed. It simple obvious fact to everyone without an agenda driven bias. His intent is in his work!

It's funny how you seem to think you know the INTENT behind everybody else's statements BETTER than "the original authors".
How did I gave you that impression? I have been the one arguing for looking at the authors usage and context, you have been wanting to choose your personal definitions. Pretense like that is dishonest.

If you're speaking to the actual, original author, it would seem prudent to simply ask them what their intent was.
Or you could read their work with your brain on, looking at context and usage instead of relying on a dictionary from where you choose your "preferred" definitions of the words he used.

If an author writes a 600 page work and you still have to ask him what he meant, either 1. The author isn't very good at communicating ideas, 2. You have poor reading comprehension, or 3. Written language is a poor tool for communicating ideas.

In the case of you and the bible, 1 and 3 can be dismissed.

No need to guess.
No one is guessing but YOU. The rest of us normal people without agendas are getting what the author meant from his context and usage. The exact way language is supposed to work.

You seem to think meaning of words in a work of literature depends on the one reading the work and not the author of the work. That is curiously illiterate.

And what about authors of great literature who are now dead and cannot be asked? Should we throw out their now worthless works because we cannot know what they meant?

Have you ever read a work of literature and known what the author meant? Ever? Have you ever even read a work of literature? Your position here is laughable. But this is what we get from the generation that doesn't read.

Liberals who believe that whatever they think, is what reality is. So the author writes "the car was blue, the same color of her birthstone", your "preferred" definition of "blue" is "sad". Therefore you insist the author wrote that the car was sad. And since cars don't get sad, that is a contradiction! Just time wasting stupidity.

Life is too sweet and too short to spend it on people being deliberately stupid.
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@ethang5
So whether what God wrote
A few clarifications are necessary to define this post.
1; Which god?
2; What did it write?
3; how the fuck do you know?


Athias
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@ebuc
Three primary types of existence and you got one of them;
I didn't get "one of them," because "types" of existence are irrelevant. My position isn't that God exists in a type of way; my position is that God exists.
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@Athias
I didn't get "one of them," because "types" of existence are irrelevant. My position isn't that God exists in a type of way; my position is that God exists.
Your ego is working overtime to denial obvious, rational, logical common sense truths. Sad :---(

PLease share when you can address the specifics as presented to you and not as your ego defense mechanisms falsely portray them. Sad :--(
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Three primary types of existence and you got one of them;

1} .." conceived "... = metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts via spirit-of-intent

-------------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------------------

2} eternally existent, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that surrounds/embraces the following,

3} eternally existent, yet finite, occupied space Universe/God.

Athias
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@ebuc
PLease share when you can address the specifics as presented to you
No. None of that which you state is relevant. Stay on topic; if you cannot, then move on.
ebuc
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@Athias
No. None of that which you state is relevant. Stay on topic; if you cannot, then move on.
All you have to offer is a false narrative. Sad :--( Please try to have some intellectual and moral integrity. Thank You
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Three primary types of existence and you got one of them;

1} .." conceived "... = metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts via spirit-of-intent

-------------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------------------

2} eternally existent, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that surrounds/embraces the following,

3} eternally existent, yet finite, occupied space Universe/God.

3RU7AL
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@Athias
Everything that is conceived and perceived has being (by definition); therefore they must exist. It's an unsavory logical consequence, but frequent mentions of "Big Foot" undermine only the arguments which propose that God exists and Big Foot necessarily must not. To my understanding, no one here has made such an argument.
Most people believe it is reasonable to say "BigFoot doesn't exist".  You are the only person I've ever encountered that insists that BigFoot exists.

I admire your bravery and frankness.

Or perhaps, you're equating the belief in God to the belief in Big Foot. That is, God is an "urban legend"; this assertion is necessarily misinformed because, as I've gathered, you believe in neither; therefore, you have little understanding on what it entails to believe in either, much less equate them. In "reality," you're just equating your disbelief in God to your disbelief in Big Foot, and are attempting to hold your opponents responsible for that.
I believe it is perfectly reasonable (if not mandatory) to believe in a logically necessary originator and sustainer of all things (NOUMENON) which I also believe is fair to call "god" (I consider myself a GNOSTIC DEIST by the way).



HOWeVer, I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between what is REAL-TRUE-FACTS and what is (indistinguishable from) PURE-IMAGINATION.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between what EXISTS and what (is indistinguishable from) DOES NOT EXIST.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between FACT and (what is indistinguishable from) OPINION.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between QUANTA and (what is indistinguishable from) QUALIA.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between TRUTH and (what is indistinguishable from) LIES.

NOUMENON (god) is necessarily a special case (SUI GENERIS).

NOUMENON (god) does not qualify for all of the prerequisites that we consider for REAL-TRUE-FACTS except that it is logically necessary.

In order to call something a REAL-TRUE-FACT, it MUST be independently and empirically verifiable and Quantifiable and indisputable and logically necessary.
Athias
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@ebuc
All you have to offer is a false narrative.
Move along, sir. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Athias
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@3RU7AL
Most people believe it is reasonable to say "BigFoot doesn't exist".  You are the only person I've ever encountered that insists that BigFoot exists.
Ad populum arguments do not inform veracity, unless it's about the number of people itself.

I believe it is perfectly reasonable (if not mandatory) to believe in a logically necessary originator and sustainer of all things (NOUMENON) which I also believe is fair to call "god" (I consider myself a GNOSTIC DEIST by the way).
So your position is one against the Biblical description of God, then?

HOWeVer, I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between what is REAL-TRUE-FACTS and what is (indistinguishable from) PURE-IMAGINATION.
Why? What's the essential difference between the two?

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between what EXISTS and what (is indistinguishable from) DOES NOT EXIST.
How can you distinguish between that which does and does not exist when its is impossible (logically incoherent) to ascertain information on that which does not exist?

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between FACT and (what is indistinguishable from) OPINION.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between QUANTA and (what is indistinguishable from) QUALIA.
Okay.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between TRUTH and (what is indistinguishable from) LIES.
If there isn't a logically coherent objective experience, then what is a lie?

In order to call something a REAL-TRUE-FACT, it MUST be independently and empirically verifiable and Quantifiable and indisputable and logically necessary.
All of which is informed by conception which bears no fundamental difference from pure imagination. You're essentially using pure imagination as a metric for what is real, true and fact.


ebuc
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@Athias
Your ego is working overtime with false narrative and denial of truth.

PLease share when you have any  rational, logical common sense truths.can address the specifics as presented to you and not as your ego defense mechanisms falsely portray them, otherwise you have nothing of relevant signifcant value responses. Sad :---(

Three primary types of existence and you got one of them;

1} .." conceived "... = metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts via spirit-of-intent

-------------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------------------

2} eternally existent, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that surrounds/embraces the following,

3} eternally existent, yet finite, occupied space Universe/God.

ebuc
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@Athias
All of which is informed by conception which bears no fundamental difference from pure imagination.
More false narrative.  Some concepts have no basis in what exists in Universe/God. Ex infinite set of roaches or ants or Athias-types { Yikes! }

Some concepts/image-a-nation do correlate to what exists in God/Universe. Triangles as concepts exist as an occupied space.

That you cannot distingush ---make the distinction--- is more evidence that your pego is running the priorities of your mental proclivities for producing false narrative and denial, instead of intellectual integrity and truth as your priority. Sad :--(



3RU7AL
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@Athias
Most people believe it is reasonable to say "BigFoot doesn't exist".  You are the only person I've ever encountered that insists that BigFoot exists.
Ad populum arguments do not inform veracity, unless it's about the number of people itself.
I am a huge fan of pointing out logical fallacies, so I appreciate that, HOWEeveR, in this particular case, it's an appeal to COMMON-GROUND.

I'm not suggesting "BigFoot doesn't exist" BECAUSE most people agree.  I'm simply trying to establish COMMON-GROUND.

I believe it is perfectly reasonable (if not mandatory) to believe in a logically necessary originator and sustainer of all things (NOUMENON) which I also believe is fair to call "god" (I consider myself a GNOSTIC DEIST by the way).
So your position is one against the Biblical description of God, then?
There doesn't appear to be a single, unified, coherent "Christian description of god".

Each person I've encountered that claims to be a Christian, has their own, personal, unique and often peculiar "description of god".

Which they, for some strange reason, seem to hate making EXPLICIT.  I mean, god = god = god = god and if you don't know that then you must be (insert ad hominem).  Which is a naked appeal to ignorance (secret-knowledge/common-sense).

HOWeEver, I happen to agree about 99.999% with Mopac's (Eastern Orthodox Christian) description of god.

HOWeVer, I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between what is REAL-TRUE-FACTS and what is (indistinguishable from) PURE-IMAGINATION.
Why? What's the essential difference between the two?
A real staircase will allow you to descend safely.

An imaginary staircase will allow you to fall to your death.

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between what EXISTS and what (is indistinguishable from) DOES NOT EXIST.
How can you distinguish between that which does and does not exist when its is impossible (logically incoherent) to ascertain information on that which does not exist?
You're conflating "nothingness" (which is impossible) with what is unverifiable.

In order to properly EXIST, a phenomenon must be empirically verifiable.  If a phenomenon is unverifiable, then it cannot be said to EXIST (and is therefore indistinguishable from imaginary and also indistinguishable from non-existent).

I also believe it is important to very clearly distinguish between TRUTH and (what is indistinguishable from) LIES.
If there isn't a logically coherent objective experience, then what is a lie?
Subjective experience can be logically coherent. 

A lie is an intentionally deceptive statement (claim) that presents either an incomplete or partially or wholly inaccurate account.

In order to call something a REAL-TRUE-FACT, it MUST be independently and empirically verifiable and Quantifiable and indisputable and logically necessary.
All of which is informed by conception which bears no fundamental difference from pure imagination. You're essentially using pure imagination as a metric for what is real, true and fact.
This is a very important point, and I'm glad we have a chance to address it again.

Coherent abstract (purely mental) information is Quantifiable.  Like mathematics.

Coherent abstracts don't EXIST in the exact same sense that rocks and trees EXIST.  We often say, "they exist abstractly".

In language, there is a clear distinction between abstract nouns and concrete nouns. 

Abstract nouns "exist abstractly" and concrete nouns EXIST (without qualification).

NOUMENON is a coherent abstract (logically necessary).

The "YHWH" is an incoherent abstract (indistinguishable from pure imagination).

BigFoot is an unverified (hypothetical) concrete noun, which does not meet the bar of, VERIFIED EMPIRICAL FACT (REAL-TRUE-FACT).
ethang5
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@Athias
Move along, sir. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Lol. Brilliant.

I think 3RU7AL is telling you what he believes so that you can correct your beliefs.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
I am a huge fan of pointing out logical fallacies, so I appreciate that, HOWEeveR, in this particular case, it's an appeal to COMMON-GROUND.

I'm not suggesting "BigFoot doesn't exist" BECAUSE most people agree.  I'm simply trying to establish COMMON-GROUND.
The fallacy isn't necessarily applied in your reference to existence. It was applicable when you stated, "Most people believe it is reasonable to say "BigFoot doesn't exist".  You are the only person I've ever encountered that insists that BigFoot exists." Just because most people believe it's reasonable doesn't make it reasonable. (Not that you explained how you know the beliefs of most people.) Even if we were to entertain that you merely stated this to state it, you're essentially saying, "Most people reasonably believe that BigFoot does not exist, and you're the outlier." How does that at all establish common ground?

There doesn't appear to be a single, unified, coherent "Christian description of god".

Each person I've encountered that claims to be a Christian, has their own, personal, unique and often peculiar "description of god".

Which they, for some strange reason, seem to hate making EXPLICIT.  I mean, god = god = god = god and if you don't know that then you must be (insert ad hominem).  Which is a naked appeal to ignorance (secret-knowledge/common-sense).

HOWeEver, I happen to agree about 99.999% with Mopac's (Eastern Orthodox Christian) description of god.

What is Mopac's description of God?

A real staircase will allow you to descend safely.

An imaginary staircase will allow you to fall to your death.
Why do you call it a "staircase"? What does one mean when one says "descend"? What is "safety"? What is "death"? How do you inform any aforestated without your imagination?

You're conflating "nothingness" (which is impossible) with what is unverifiable.
I'm conflating nothingness with nonexistent.

In order to properly EXIST, a phenomenon must be empirically verifiable.
You're modifying existence using your preferred metric; that's fine. My arguments don't subscribe to such metrics. I merely state "God is;" 

A lie is an intentionally deceptive statement (claim) that presents either an incomplete or partially or wholly inaccurate account.
How does one empirically identify "intentional deception"?

Coherent abstracts don't EXIST in the exact same sense that rocks and trees EXIST.  We often say, "they exist abstractly".
Yes but they exist. We can dispute the difference between abstract and reality but the primary point is that they do exist, however you decide to modify the term existence. Now, I would argue that every subjective experience is informed and irremovable from abstractions (e.g. your reference to the staircase and falling to one's death.) The difference between life and death is abstract; the fact that you name that particular matter a staircase is abstract. The differences are informed by meaning, and meaning is fundamentally imaginative/abstract. So stating that BigFoot is abstract, and therefore he doesn't [properly] exist, would be like saying meaning is abstract; therefore it does not properly exist; and if your meaning doesn't exist, your sense or value of difference doesn't exist; and if that doesn't exist then what is it you're perceiving?

Empirical verification is no less a subjective experience. And when you reduce the argument to its fundamental premise, it's essentially one of meaning. Empirical verification has meaning, I don't dispute that. You choose a definition which coincides with that meaning.
Athias
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@ethang5
Lol. Brilliant.
Thank you.

I think 3RU7AL is telling you what he believes so that you can correct your beliefs.
We all here can be guilty of that. If I didn't think we could reach some sort of agreement, or perhaps change the minds of one another, I wouldn't bother entertaining this discussion this long.
3RU7AL
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@Athias

What is Mopac's description of God?
"The Ultimate Reality".

Mopac also believes the Christian book is not infallible and shouldn't be read as a literal rule book.

It's more like a super-complicated poem or secret code that facilitates meditation and if you read it unskeptically, it will lead you to a greater understanding of "The Truth".
ethang5
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@3RU7AL
There doesn't appear to be a single, unified, coherent "Christian description of god".
Don't look at the bible! Don't look! Doooon't!

However, I happen to agree about 99.999% with Mopac's (Eastern Orthodox Christian) description of god.
That incidentally, is consistent with the bible's description of God.

Each person I've encountered that claims to be a Christian, has their own, personal, unique and often peculiar "description of god".
Each iteration of the Supreme Court I've encountered that claims to be a American, has had their own, personal, unique and often peculiar "description of the country"

Which they, for some strange reason, seem to hate making EXPLICIT.
Don't look at the constitution! Don't look! Doooon't!

Lol
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@ethang5
He gets confused between his religious hatreds and his political hatreds.
We should keep him around just for the luls.
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Christian faith is blind. So belief in a hypothesis that has zero evidence is blind faith. All godisms qualify

3RU7AL
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@Athias
Coherent abstracts don't EXIST in the exact same sense that rocks and trees EXIST.  We often say, "they exist abstractly".
Yes but they exist. We can dispute the difference between abstract and reality but the primary point is that they do exist, however you decide to modify the term existence. Now, I would argue that every subjective experience is informed and irremovable from abstractions (e.g. your reference to the staircase and falling to one's death.) The difference between life and death is abstract; the fact that you name that particular matter a staircase is abstract. The differences are informed by meaning, and meaning is fundamentally imaginative/abstract. So stating that BigFoot is abstract, and therefore he doesn't [properly] exist, would be like saying meaning is abstract; therefore it does not properly exist; and if your meaning doesn't exist, your sense or value of difference doesn't exist; and if that doesn't exist then what is it you're perceiving?

Empirical verification is no less a subjective experience. And when you reduce the argument to its fundamental premise, it's essentially one of meaning. Empirical verification has meaning, I don't dispute that. You choose a definition which coincides with that meaning.
Can we agree that the "YHWH" does NOT exist in an empirically verifiable or logically necessary CONCRETE way?

Can we agree that the "YHWH" DOES exist in an ABSTRACT and hypothetical way?
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Can we agree that the "YHWH" does NOT exist in an empirically verifiable or logically necessary CONCRETE way?
No. Even if you were to posit that all which is experienced through sensory information (vision, audition, olfaction, gustation, and somatosensation) is empirical, the distinction between the aforestated is still abstract. You can argue that this serves a practical purpose, but even practicality itself is abstract. You're attempting to argue the two (concrete vs abstract) as mutually exclusive, but the logic does not extend on a fundamental level. We can agree on definitions, but they're provisional; they are malleable; they can be challenged; they are abstract.


Can we agree that the "YHWH" DOES exist in an ABSTRACT and hypothetical way?
What doesn't?
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@3RU7AL
Let me also ask: is the mind empirically verifiable?
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@Athias
Let me also ask: is the mind empirically verifiable?
The "mind" (much like NOUMENON) is logically necessary.

Dubito, ergo, cogito, ergo, SUM.
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@3RU7AL
The "mind" (much like NOUMENON) is logically necessary.

Dubito, ergo, cogito, ergo, SUM.
That's not what I asked. I know the mind is logically necessary. Is it empirically verifiable?
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@Athias
You're attempting to argue the two (concrete vs abstract) as mutually exclusive,
Not exactly.

Concrete is a subcategory of Abstract.

"Purely Abstract" denotes a concept with no Concrete component.
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@Athias
The "mind" (much like NOUMENON) is logically necessary.
Dubito, ergo, cogito, ergo, SUM.
That's not what I asked. I know the mind is logically necessary. Is it empirically verifiable?

The "mind" (much like NOUMENON) is logically necessary, but not empirically verifiable.

Each person can only verify their own mind, through direct experience (private GNOSIS).

Attempting to verify someone else's mind is basically a subjective value judgement (Turing-Test/Voight-Kampff).

Athias
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@3RU7AL
Not exactly.

Concrete is a subcategory of Abstract.

"Purely Abstract" denotes a concept with no Concrete component.

If concrete is a subcategory of abstract, then what is the (epistemological) significance in creating a stark distinction between the two (i.e. purely abstract and concrete)? Is it not just a value-based judgement?

The "mind" (much like NOUMENON) is logically necessary, but not empirically verifiable.
Hold on...

Each person can only verify their own mind, through direct experience (private GNOSIS).
So then, it is empirically verifiable. It may not bear the capacity to be controlled for independent of their own experience, but that doesn't mean it can't be verified. Its veracity and their direct experience are fundamentally and inextricably tied.

Attempting to verify someone else's mind is basically a subjective value judgement (Turing-Test/Voight-Kampff).
What could you verify independent or isolated from the person's experience? The mind is a logical necessity because its veracity is axiomatic, right?


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@Athias
If concrete is a subcategory of abstract, then what is the (epistemological) significance in creating a stark distinction between the two (i.e. purely abstract and concrete)? Is it not just a value-based judgement?
Scientifically verifiable data (Quanta) is validated by efficacy.

You and I may have completely different ideas about how to build a bridge or a computer or an engine, but if only one of those ideas is based on scientifically verifiable data, then, most likely, only one of them will function as expected.