Abortion

Author: TheRealNihilist

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#91
TheRealNihilist
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they are not given by the government in the U.S. which country are we talking about because that would make a difference.

Some would argue abortion is a good thing because of the disproportionate number of black women who have them.  Perhaps being pro-death can be because of racism to some people,  racists don't think straight to begin with but I could see them thinking that way.

each human has unique human dna, perhaps start there as a basis for a human life.

Rights are given and enforced by the government and you haven't explained how I am wrong. 
What makes a human?

#92
Mopac
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@TheRealNihilist
Well yeah but having a standard does help because it is pretty much something fundamental needed to know in order to make laws around it


The standard is my body my choice! I don't want to carry a useless collection of cells and tissues, so I don't have to! It's like getting a haircut, clipping toenails, or getting your tonsils removed. I have a RIGHT TO CHOOSE whether or not I am pregnant. My body, my choice!



And you can call me names all you want, but it should be obvious that this is an actual argument that is used.


Why is abortion good? Because it empowers women to have choices concerning their own body!


Yes, of course it is wicked.

#93
Mopac
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Worship sex as your god.

I want to be able to have sex with whoever I want, whenever I want, without any responsibility whatsoever, and if that means sacrificing my children, so be it!

It's evil pagan bullshit.

#94
Polytheist-Witch
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@Mopac
LOL, yeap the pagans are the only ones having abortions. Even though no pagan religion has an issue with birth control. 
#95
Snoopy
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@Polytheist-Witch
Abortion is a form of birth control. Contraception is thought by the catholic church to somehow cause a divine disruption, our something like that. People may use it as such but Contraception is not generally what I would consider birth control.
#96
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@Snoopy
If you worship yourself, your pet rock or anything for that matter, and it grants one rights, then according to the definition it would seem applicable to respect them as a person.
I  do not worship the government but in practice it is the government that grants most rights. Worship would seem to be unnecessary in determining rights.

--> @omar2345
Well yeah but having a standard does help because it is pretty much something fundamental needed to know in order to make laws around it. 
I think if we have demonstrated anything  in this thread it is that what constitutes a "person" is subjective. There are no subjective facts. You don't "know" what a person is you determine it subjectively and cannot force anyone to agree with you. 
#97
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@TheRealNihilist
Rights are given and enforced by the government and you haven't explained how I am wrong. 

"The Constitution's first three words—We the People—affirm that the government of the United States exists to serve its citizens."

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is a recognition of inalienable rights, they are not given/granted by government, if they were they wouldn't be rights they would be privileges.
So there you go I've explained how you are wrong, easy enough.
What makes a human?


#98
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@Polytheist-Witch
Pagans are as diverse as created things.

And that is what they have in common. It is creation worship.

Topic's author
#99
TheRealNihilist
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@TheDredPriateRoberts

"The Constitution's first three words—We the People—affirm that the government of the United States exists to serve its citizens."

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is a recognition of inalienable rights, they are not given/granted by government, if they were they wouldn't be rights they would be privileges.
So there you go I've explained how you are wrong, easy enough.

The government is the reason the constitution is relevant to this day. Not because of the constitution. This means without the government power like what the US has the constitution would hold nothing of value.

"they are not given/granted by government"
Completely false. You are free because of the government. Your rights are enforced and kept the same way because of the government. The government is the reason why the constitution is relevant not the constitution because the constitutions has no power but the government does and they choose to value the constitution. 

Do pick a definition. 
#100
disgusted
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@Snoopy
Godists.
Topic's author
#101
TheRealNihilist
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@secularmerlin
I think if we have demonstrated anything  in this thread it is that what constitutes a "person" is subjective. There are no subjective facts. You don't "know" what a person is you determine it subjectively and cannot force anyone to agree with you
What is subjective?
What is a fact?



#102
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@TheRealNihilist
you are ignorant about the U.S. constitution and Bill of Rights, but feel free to start a topic about it because you are wrong for a variety of historical, legal and factual reasons.

you pick a definition, it's your thread.
#103
Snoopy
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@TheRealNihilist
The government is the reason the constitution is relevant to this day. Not because of the constitution. This means without the government power like what the US has the constitution would hold nothing of value.
The rights mentioned in the constitution are not contingent upon it, or the government of the United States.  Assuming you are native born your education has been an utter disaster in the civics department, as this should practically be common knowledge among citizens of the United States.  Law is still practiced as such up till present time within the United States of America.
Topic's author
#104
TheRealNihilist
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
you are ignorant about the U.S. constitution and Bill of Rights, but feel free to start a topic about it because you are wrong for a variety of historical, legal and factual reasons.
Says the person who doesn't even know something doesn't have value until something values it. The government values the constitution therefore it is protected and enforced. You can't even understand a simple concept yet I am supposed to make a thread about it for you to have a take like the one you gave. 
you pick a definition, it's your thread.
It is best for you to pick because you used it as a source. Saying it is my thread doesn't mean I have to pick a definition. So are you actually define what I told you to do define or are you going to push the burden to me? 
Topic's author
#105
TheRealNihilist
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@Snoopy
The rights mentioned in the constitution are not contingent upon it, or the government of the United States.  Assuming you are native born your education has been an utter disaster, as this is practically common knowledge among United States citizens.  Law is still practiced as such up till present time within the United States of America.
None of this debunks what I said. The government a more powerful entity values the constitution therefore it is protected and enforced. Actually have a rebuttal for it?

#106
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@TheRealNihilist
Rights don't need protection or enforcement.  People apparently do, in the current setting.
#107
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@TheRealNihilist
Says the person who doesn't even know something doesn't have value until something values it. The government values the constitution therefore it is protected and enforced. You can't even understand a simply concept yet I am supposed to make a thread about it for you to have a take like the one you gave. 

lol backtracking again I see, never said the government doesn't enforce the rights set forth by the constitution and bill of rights, there you go lying again in an attempt to deflect from being wrong.  you are pathetic

ok kid here ya go, happy now?
a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens)
Topic's author
#108
TheRealNihilist
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@Snoopy
Rights don't need protection or enforcement.  People do.
Rights are a value claim. It would be at its simplest I value X therefore I will protect and/or enforce this.
Since the government is used to represent the people those rights are created based on the people around them.


#109
Snoopy
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@TheRealNihilist
Rights are thought to have a basis in truth.  Whether you value the truth or not is irrelevant.
Topic's author
#110
TheRealNihilist
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lol backtracking again I see, never said the government doesn't enforce the rights set forth by the constitution and bill of rights,
So you have provided no actual claim against mine instead decided to waste time just because you think it was necessary. So basically you like providing nothing important and want attention. 
there you go lying again in an attempt to deflect from being wrong.  you are pathetic
While saying:

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is a recognition of inalienable rights, they are not given/granted by government,
You said:
ok kid here ya go, happy now?
a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens)
A kangaroo is a bipedal primate mammal. Are they know a homo-sapien? 
Topic's author
#111
TheRealNihilist
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@Snoopy
Rights are thought to have a basis in truth.  Whether you value the truth or not is irrelevant.
Tell me how does that address what I said?

#112
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@TheRealNihilist
If rights are invaluable, having a basis in truth independent of value, they are certainly not a "value claim".

If "rights" are a value claim, the personal contention is not actually referring to a right in theory or practice





#113
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
The Constitution and Bill of Rights is a recognition of inalienable rights, they are not given/granted by government, if they were they wouldn't be rights they would be privileges
That is so very important to recognize.
#114
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@TheRealNihilist
Kangaroos are marsupials.
Primates include monkeys, chimpanzees, gorillas and the like. No. Primates are placental mammals, and marsupials are a separate group of mammals.

you just aren't very bright are you.
#115
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@Mopac
#116
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#117
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@Snoopy
"it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong."


I see this as an incredibly dangerous and unethical moral philosophy.
#118
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Utilitarianism promises that robots will perform all the labor, and my heroin is free. I am disappointed that what is said to be moral is not my right.

It's time to wave signs in front of the capital.


#119
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@Mopac
what he believed is in conflict with the difference between rights and privileges, I give no credence to his opinions.  the link shows a pretty good distinction, which is what I said previously.
rights can't be taken away, though you can forfeit them by your actions, like committing a crime, privileges on the other hand, what is give/granted can also be taken away.  I just can't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

so regardless of which side you are on, the Doctor has NO right to perform an abortion.  In fact he has NO right to practice medicine.  He gets the PRIVILEGE to do so via his state granted licence which can be taken away.

so let's boil this down  IF there is a right to an abortion, then that only extents to one's self, or self abortion.  If you attempt or succeed in hurting yourself the government will intervene, there are laws against self harm.
Abortion could be considered as self harm.  Does she have the right to self harm, maybe, maybe not.

#120
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Sho 'nuff