Religion or Science?

seek wisdom from the creator,

Provide a creator from which to seek wisdom.

To which god was the prayer directed.

Which god received the prayer and which god acted on it and how can you know this?

Provide a creator from which to seek wisdom.

What do you mean by provide a creator? How can I provide a creator?

Don't run away, it's unbecoming. Face up to the scenario, show a modicum of courage.

What are you talking about?

Okay then, change imaginary friend to Thor. How does that change your discussion? You've seen evidence of Thor. Thor exists in many texts. Just so you know, in case you say "Well, Thor's the god of thunder so he shouldn't be giving out medical advice," I can find the gods of medicine for every ancient culture. You're being intellectually dishonest. 

Jesus actually made it clear that demonic possession had different levels, and how to deal with them. Man in all of our magnificence are hesitant to seek that kind of knowledge from a higher power, unfortunately at the expense of many.

Our intellectual pride is what's killing us. We've advanced so much, now we can blow up the entire planet with a push of a button. We have to rely on human balance of power to keep us in our comfort zone, which is pretty pitiful. Someone always seems to suffer because of human advancement.

So, if you went to this doctor with your elderly relative, who was forgetting where they were, who they were, and the doctor said "As you know, Jesus says this COULD be one of many levels of demonic possessions. That's who I believe in, and that's how I'd advise proceeding. Not medicines, not proven therapies, but just good ol' fashioned Jesus....praying and an exorcism. That's my medical advice," you're saying you'd go to one of the people who were hesitant to accept this explanation, a doctor who went to medical school and would advise this medicine plus this therapy, then that medicine and another therapy, in an effort to actively cure your relative. That is just good common sense. Except you talk about them like they're idiots for not conferring with their various gods to get to an answer. Yeah, we have to rely on humans balancing power, because humans are real and intervene in our lives, all of us. Yeah, human advancement comes at a cost in some cases. If this were such anathema to Jesus, he would step in and do something about it. Or maybe Allah would, or vishnu, or Thor. 

This anti-intelligence stuff just bugs me..."Oh, fancy book school you went to doctor, thanks but I'll just ask Jesus for help instead, you dummy!" But when put to the test, none of these bible thumpers ever eschew the doctor, instead they say "God put this doctor here and helped him come up with this plan or medicine or innovation." That's god of the gaps.

There's no need to be bugged, because I'm not promoting anti-intelligence stuff. Maybe I'm promoting anti-thinking-i'm-so-intelligent stuff. And isn't the whole argument militant atheists are making is that people of religion are unintelligent?

One big problem in your scenario is you're talking about a relative who merely forgets things. Senility, Alzheimer's, etc. So I guess you still think I belong to some religious cult handling snakes and refusing medical attention?

And as far human advancement coming at a cost, yes, but at who's cost?

What Jesus does do, as far as stepping in, is give us the responsibility to right injustices. For instance, how much do you think sending up one rocket into space costs? Now, how many starving people could have been fed with that dollar amount? If the motivation to send ships into space was because we want to beat the Russians to it, wouldn't you agree that that would be a gross violation concerning justice for the starving? Yeah, it comes at an expense alright.

Yeah, we're human,

 And isn't the whole argument militant atheists are making is that people of religion are unintelligent?

One big problem in your scenario is you're talking about a relative who merely forgets things. Senility, Alzheimer's, etc. So I guess you still think I belong to some religious cult handling snakes and refusing medical attention?

What Jesus does do, as far as stepping in, is give us the responsibility to right injustices. For instance, how much do you think sending up one rocket into space costs? Now, how many starving people could have been fed with that dollar amount? If the motivation to send ships into space was because we want to beat the Russians to it, wouldn't you agree that that would be a gross violation concerning justice for the starving? Yeah, it comes at an expense alright.

BS. It is clear atheists think they are superior to theists in every way.

BS. It is clear atheists think they are superior to theists in every way.

ROLLEYES. Here we go. No, the argument made by atheists is that religion should be absolutely separate from state, that you're free to worhsip your toilet if you want to, but don't make laws based on your toilet worship that affect me, and don't treat those that don't worship your toilet as inherently different than you just because they don't find your toilet as nice as you do. This inferiority complex by the religious is grating.

What exactly is your objection to my scenario? It simply illustrates your god of the gaps thinking as it pertains to medical science and how medicine and science have made gods smaller and less important in practical terms. 

SO when you think injustice, you think of scientific research? Weird. I'll give you another one. Tragically, the cathedral at Notre Dame burned down about a month ago. 800 years of history, burned in a matter of hours. No, I'm not going to ask where Jesus was to put out the fire. My concern is that within about 24 hours, they'd literally received more than one billion dollars in private donation commitments, most of which came from single donors (so not $5 a piece from a 200,000,000 people). France has a massive homeless problem. Paris, specifically. Is rebuilding that old building, which will NOT be the same as the historical place that burned down, more important than using that billion dollars of private money to build housing for homeless people in France? How many low income apartments can you subsidize for a year on the billion dollars that came in in the first 24 hours of donation? Couldn't Jesus himself step in? Space missions led to the invention of stuff like the MRI machine. That Cathedral led to a souvenir shop. I'd been there, it was incredible as a tourist attraction, but it served no purpose directly to the people of Paris. 

When I think of injustice, I think of a number of things. What is this obsession with thinking I'm against scientists?

Would it surprise you if I told you I agree with you about the Notre Dame Cathedral?

First off, I wouldn't say it serves no purpose. But there's an applicable passage in scripture where a disciple makes a comment to Jesus about the magnificence of Jewish architecture. Jesus basically countered by giving a prophetic word concerning it's destruction. It's clear that the statement was more profound than just the prophesy alone, but that human life is far more important than magnificent architecture. So yes, I would place the Notre Dame cathedral in the same boat as space exploration. Nothing wrong with either perse, but neither are as important as human life. The ND cathedral is a source of national pride. Our space programs are a source of national pride as well. You like to point out where I don't comment on some of your comments, so I'll do the same concerning the race to space rivalry I noticed you didn't comment on.

Look at it this way. Is Paris a good place to take one's family? Sure! However, if you're family were starving, and may end up freezing and possibly getting sick because your electricity is about to get shut off, you'd be unwise to make that trip to Paris. As a good provider of the home, you would place food and proper shelter ahead of your desire to see Paris.

The humanists like to use phraseology like The Family Of Man. The attempt to give the appearance of being concerned about our fellow man as if we were all one big global family. Obviously that's not the case. And obviously in the case of the space race, tribalism (or nationalism) is valued over global family.

Look at it this way. Is Paris a good place to take one's family? Sure! However, if you're family were starving, and may end up freezing and possibly getting sick because your electricity is about to get shut off, you'd be unwise to make that trip to Paris. As a good provider of the home, you would place food and proper shelter ahead of your desire to see Paris. 

The humanists like to use phraseology like The Family Of Man. The attempt to give the appearance of being concerned about our fellow man as if we were all one big global family. Obviously that's not the case. And obviously in the case of the space race, tribalism (or nationalism) is valued over global family.

THe space race was something from sixty years ago, bud. There's no 'space race' anymore. Almost every developed country has a space program, do you think their sole purposes are "to be the coolest kids in space" or " have more of space than this other guy?" Or do you think space exploration has led to things like not only the MRI machine, but the network of satellites that carries the internet wherever your phone is, research on all manner of subjects to do with the atmosphere that you probably think are a Chinese hoax, velcro, memory foam, the ability to see almost to the beginning of time, not to mention innumerable less famous mechanical innovations? It's not JUST a source of national pride. Notred Dame cathedral was a building that hadn't changed materially in a thousand years. Landing a controllable rover on Mars only ONE HUNDRED YEARS after figuring out how to make a usable airplane...how much did religion contribute directly to that? 

No, it doesn't surprise me that you agree. The argument is unassailable: if in one day about ten people can throw $1B at an old church, IN ONE DAY, why can't that same person take $100M and build and subsidize housing for 100K people? In practical logistical terms it isn't apples to apples, but it forces us to confront the fact that churches, while nice, are not what we need. 

WTF does this have to do with anything? Are you saying if you're poor, might be a better choice to keep food on the table instead of taking a trip to Paris? Sage advice. I'm trying to figure out why you think I would NOT have made this observation without being prompted, or what it has to do with the discussion. 

I'm not really sure what you're asking, but it looks like you think I'm accusing you of negligence. Like when you went to Paris, you neglected to pay your PG&E bill or something. If that's your concern, you can remove it.

I've never once heard or used the phrase "The Family of Man." How does the space race somehow imply devalue of human life? You realize that it's not a binary choice between the two, right? Like in the richest country on earth, there's a way to do both? Let's figure out a way to raise a ton of money, strictly for the poor, the people Jesus wanted to help, okay? Here's an idea. Maybe we can remove the property tax exemption from all churches and evangelist mansions masquerading as pastoral centers in America. Maybe the poorer, more rural churches in places like Mississippi or Carolina or Nebraska, maybe they can apply for a re-assessment and pay a PERCENTAGE of the property tax, but not 0. I mean, they take donations, right? But in the meantime, buildings like St. Pats in NYC or the National Cathedral in Washington, those places have to pay the full burden of their property taxes, because they're not hurting for money, they have well monied donor bases. ALL of that revenue goes to public housing. Can't afford it? Okay, then we have the IRS here to audit your books and adjust your rates accordingly. 

As a Christian, would you vote for that?

So yes, I'd be very open to taxation for churches that could survive if they were taxed.