free will

Author: keithprosser

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#241
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@keithprosser
An industrial robot enacts the will of its manufacturer and programmer.    It is the ultimate slave wth no freedom.

But a person is free to enact their own will.
Even a robot is subject to some level of randomness and does not always function strictly according to its design.

A person acts according to information (including instinct and biological limitations and imperatives) with some level of randomness.
#242
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@Mopac
Free will is the ability to choose, not immunity from causality.
Not immunity, but rather a mix of deterministic and (possibly) non-deterministic influences.

However that ability is brought about, it is there. There is somehow room for it.
Room for non-deterministic influences?  We agree on this.

I can see no good reason for you to reject free will at this point.
Non-deterministic influences and gods influences are both incompatible with human freedom AND human will.
#243
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@3RU7AL
A human can choose between this world of the flesh, the passions, the pride of life, of death.

Or to abide in Eternity, to abide in God, in Life.


The Way of the later is the path of synergism as we call it in Orthodoxy. It is the path of true religion. The purification of the heart, acquisition of The Holy Spirit, a willful alignment with the divine energy of God, a surrendering of the will of the flesh to the will of God. It is the path of theosis, the way of a child of God.

And The Way is The Truth, Eternal Life. For Eternal Life is this, to know The One True God and The One sent, Jesus Christ. To know Jesus Christ is to unlock this great mystery, contained in the second hypostasis of The Trinity. 

For God became incarnate, deifying all of creation, descending into hades, rising from the dead and filling all things. Trampling down death by death, drawing all back to Him through His Flesh.







#244
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@Mopac
A human can choose between this world of the flesh, the passions, the pride of life, of death.
Based on their instincts and biological limitations and imperatives and their experience and some level of possibly non-deterministic influences.
#245
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@keithprosser
Even now AI programs routinely do things that surprise their creators. Are they not enacting their own "will" if not how is it distinguishable from our perspective?
#246
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@keithprosser
But a person is free to enact their own will.
Please present an example of what you would consider a truly free act of will.

And for bonus points, see if you can make it a moral choice.
#247
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@secularmerlin
AI programs adhere to the algorithms they were programmed with. No, AI program are not enacting their own will. 

#248
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@3RU7AL
Choosing between toast or eggs for breakfast.

#249
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If free will does not exist, your beliefs were not rationally accepted.

#250
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@3RU7AL
Sounds about right. And that is actually what is meant by free will. Not that the will is totally free to do whatever it wants or that it isn't tempered by the causal universe. We can make choices, but we are still very much bound by a meatsuit. The meatsuit will always have its influence, but we do have the ability to choose to resist many of its influences. That is a very peculiar thing if you think about it.


#251
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@Fallaneze
Choosing between toast or eggs for breakfast.
Is this choice constrained by your desire for either toast or eggs and or breakfast itself?

Is this desire the product of your biological imperative to ingest nutrients and your memory of eating eggs and toast previously?

What part of this choice is "free" and what exactly is it "free" from?

Do you consider this particular choice indistinguishable from a "roll of the dice" (essentially random)?

Would a more important or moral choice be subject to some fundamentally different set of influences?
#252
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@3RU7AL
Well it's important to keep in mind what "free will" means. 

"Free will" does not mean "desire-independent choices" or "choices independent of any contraints." 

"Free will" means the ability to choose between different courses of action. So as long as we can do that, we have free will. We don't always act in accordance with our desires.



#253
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@Mopac
Sounds about right. And that is actually what is meant by free will. Not that the will is totally free to do whatever it wants or that it isn't tempered by the causal universe. We can make choices, but we are still very much bound by a meatsuit. The meatsuit will always have its influence, but we do have the ability to choose to resist many of its influences.
We can LEARN from our personal experiences to resist many of the influences of the meatsuit.

We do not create our own learning ability and we do not create our own biology and we do not create our primary experiences on which all of our secondary experiences are based.

Everything is deterministic, except for what is non-deterministic (even ghost and gods).

Determinism is incompatible with freewill.

Non-determinism is also incompatible with freewill.

There is no clever mix of the two that is compatible with freewill.

Freewill is an emotion.  It's just a feeling you get when you make a choice.
#254
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@Fallaneze
"Free will" means the ability to choose between different courses of action. So as long as we can do that, we have free will. We don't always act in accordance with our desires.
A spider can make a choice.

Do you believe a spider has freewill?
#255
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@3RU7AL
Freewill is an emotion.  It's just a feeling you get when you make a choice.
No it would be making a choice, not an emotion you get.

The ability to choose is what is called "freewill". Free will is probably not a good wsy to describe it, because as I have mentioned before, free will sounds like the ability to jump to the moon and back on a whim.

#256
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@Mopac
The ability to choose is what is called "freewill".
Spiders make choices, do you believe they have freewill?
#257
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@3RU7AL
Define "choice" and explain how a spider makes a choice.
#258
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Humans to my knowledge are the only ones who can consider taking different courses of action. Non rational entities who act upon instincts don't possess the awareness required to choose between different courses of action.
#259
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@Fallaneze
Define "choice" and explain how a spider makes a choice.
A spider has many options when choosing a location to spin its web.
#260
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@Fallaneze
Humans to my knowledge are the only ones who can consider taking different courses of action. Non rational entities who act upon instincts don't possess the awareness required to choose between different courses of action.
Every animal and even most plants can choose between options.
#261
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@3RU7AL
I don't know whether spiders make choices or not.


What I do know is that I have choices, and hard as it might be for me to choose to do what seems right, it is still my choice whether or not I do what I can discern that I ought to do.


#262
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@Mopac
I don't know whether spiders make choices or not.

What I do know is that I have choices, and hard as it might be for me to choose to do what seems right, it is still my choice whether or not I do what I can discern that I ought to do.
And you base those important decisions on your "best judgment" which is based on your experience, which in-turn, determines your actions.

There may be some non-deterministic randomness in the mix, but none of that is either free or will.
#263
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@3RU7AL
What you acknowledge as being a reality is still what is called free will, so really your debate is whether or not "free will" is a good term for it.

And you know what? I have had the same issues with this term as you. As I am incapable of farting muffins into existence, it is difficult to call this will free.


But I think it is important to note that at least in the context of Orthodox thelogy and how we understand these things, a great deal of it is translational issues. 





#264
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@3RU7AL
What evidence suggests they're making choices as opposed to blindly acting on instinct?
#265
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@3RU7AL
Well you're a more hardcore proponent of free will than I am if you believe even plants can choose between different options.
#266
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@Fallaneze
Well you're a more hardcore proponent of free will than I am if you believe even plants can choose between different options.
Choice =/= freewill.
#267
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@keithprosser
I take free will to be only a name or label for our faculty to make choices. 
Free will is demonstrable, if we make a choice in a specific set of circumstances, realign our will, then make another choice in the same set of circumstances.


#268
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@Snoopy
Free will is demonstrable, if we make a choice in a specific set of circumstances, realign our will, then make another choice in the same set of circumstances.
The "same set of circumstances" can never be perfectly duplicated.

You'll find that people who have lost their ability to make new memories will say and do the same thing over and over and over and over. [LINK]

It seems like your memory collects information which influences the actions you take.
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#269
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@Snoopy
if we make a choice in a specific set of circumstances, realign our will, then make another choice in the same set of circumstances.
As long as my choices are determined by my preferences (ie not by non-self factors) I have all the 'free will' I want.


#270
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@keithprosser
What if your preferences are installed by deterministic forces beyond your control?