"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate

Author: 3RU7AL

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ludofl3x
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@3RU7AL
 would you support giving parents the full dollar amount of the vouchers to pay them to home school their own children?

Wouldn't that also require paying the parent to do so, a salary? Otherwise their income becomes a problem: you can have $20K a year to home school your child, but you have to give up your $30K a year job to do it? 
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@3RU7AL
aLSo, as a point of curiosity, would you support giving parents the full dollar amount of the vouchers to pay them to home school their own children?
no because the amount goes for a variety of things not just direct teaching.

Vermont ($20,795 per pupil) is ranked #5 and Utah ($7,207 per pupil) is ranked #30.
ok but is being ranked 30 bad?  what do those ranks mean?  if it's just a comparison of schools it doesn't mean much if they are both meeting or exceeding standards.

Do you think wealthy people were generally better students?  Wealth certainly helps with tutors and assistance outside of school that has nothing to do with taxes.  Do these wealthy areas have a higher traditional family structure?  Are these wealthy people more involved with pta and the schools?

I don't think it's as simplistic as throwing more money at them.

from you link....   lowest drop out rate  #1 Iowa which is ranked #37   Alaska ranks #47 in highest drop out rate yet all the money they use.

budgets have been increased somewhere, and when they did was there an improvement?  certainly some places received substantial increases




3RU7AL
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@ludofl3x
I don't think "throwing money" at the problem is a great idea. I think using research to figure out how to get the most out of what money you can use, applying it to the places where it's needed, is probably a start. I can't imagine a material advantage in the purchasing power argument for the poorer districts because you're talking about a percentage point difference, i.e. 1000 bucks in a rich district spends like 1000 bucks, in a poor district it spends like 1200, the advantage is only $200, just to use round numbers. If the rich areas don't need that assistance, I don't get why it would be given, just for the appearance of fairness? To kids who are born into a great advantage through absolutely nothing but their own luck? I'd rather take the 2000 bucks that spends like 2200 altogether, 1000 of which is probably going to go to getting a new barista in the fancy schmancy teachers lounge and give it to the poor district where it can spend like a $2400 advantage, not a $200 one. Seems a better investment.  
The problem here is we can't get anywhere until we get the rich kids onboard.

Every fair funding proposal is opposed because if we pool all of the money and split it evenly, then everyone gets $12,000 per pupil.

Currently, the wealthier public schools are getting $20,000 per pupil so they're going to scream bloody murder.

The only way I can see to do this is to say, "EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME VOUCHER".

Fair is fair.  Title 9.  It has to be simple.

The rich kids are free to hold a bake sale if they are desperate for more money.
3RU7AL
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@ludofl3x
 would you support giving parents the full dollar amount of the vouchers to pay them to home school their own children?
Wouldn't that also require paying the parent to do so, a salary? Otherwise their income becomes a problem: you can have $20K a year to home school your child, but you have to give up your $30K a year job to do it? 
The parent's "salary" would be the per pupil voucher.  It would be optional.  Nobody is forcing you to quit your job.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
aLSo, as a point of curiosity, would you support giving parents the full dollar amount of the vouchers to pay them to home school their own children?
no because the amount goes for a variety of things not just direct teaching.
Oh, you mean like lunches and electricity and water and security and computer equipment and art supplies?

Oh, you mean all of the things that a parent would be providing for their own children?
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@3RU7AL
I suppose, but isn't the choice between "work to pay your bills and send your kid to a crappy public school" or "quit your job at tremendous personal cost to perform a job that is, in many other places, performed by the state instead" not exactly a choice at all? At least not one we should be facing in America today, as far as I can see. 

Also what happened to Jesus in this debate? :)
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@3RU7AL
a parent would provide a sports team?  marching band or even music lessons etc  huh don't know anyone who home schools that provides those things, do you?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
My mother taught me more than I learned from school while working full time, partly because she is a good mom, and partly because my educational system didn't afford very efficient use of my time. Music is encouraged in my family traditionally, but we usually work and learn something that is naturally of interest over sport.
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@Snoopy
My mother taught me more than I learned from school while working full time, partly because she is a good mom, and partly because my educational system didn't afford very efficient use of my time. Music is encouraged in my family traditionally, but we usually work and learn something that is naturally of interest over sport.
do you think parental support like that at home makes students better?  I mean I certainly would think so and that is probably more likely to be the case from people with wealth.  Wealthy people tend to be more educated, more intelligent therefore place a higher priority on education for their children compared to others who didn't grow up that way.  Seems logical in my mind which is why I say throwing more money isn't a good idea.  Consider the state of some schools where the students rule over the teachers.  Even here locally there are good and bad schools.  The bad ones aren't because of funding but are bad because the students are violent.  If parents aren't involved or don't care about their children's education all the money in the world isn't going to change that.
In most cases we are not getting our moneys worth, imo

3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
a parent would provide a sports team?  marching band or even music lessons etc  huh don't know anyone who home schools that provides those things, do you?
There are community sports leagues that are not school sponsored.  Parents could use part of their "school budget" to hire a music teacher or teach music themselves.  I don't see either one of these as insurmountable "problems".  There are also home-school clubs that offer group activities and competitions for members.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Even here locally there are good and bad schools.  The bad ones aren't because of funding but are bad because the students are violent.
Citation please.
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@ludofl3x
Also what happened to Jesus in this debate? :)
The most vocal proponents of home schooling (and school vouchers) are Christians.
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@3RU7AL
BY percentage of population of the US, though, wouldn't that make sense probablistically? All I'm saying is that information doesn't give us the WHY, just the THAT. Not insight into why that is. 

TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
There are community sports leagues that are not school sponsored.  Parents could use part of their "school budget" to hire a music teacher or teach music themselves.  I don't see either one of these as insurmountable "problems".  There are also home-school clubs that offer group activities and competitions for members.
there are "home schoolers" who's parents have formed groups to hire a teacher for their children, they pay the teacher's salary etc in which case they should get their allotment of tax money they would use anyway, perhaps that money would be used more wisely and efficiently.  I'm not going to pretend I understand all the finances of schools but some of the inefficiencies and waste is pretty obvious.

you want a citation for my observation and opinion?  If I give you specifics I would be doxing myself.
let me ask you, this do you think schools down play their problems and try to hide them or are they 100% transparent?
the violence, fights and drugs in schools will be solved by giving the schools more money?
3RU7AL
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@ludofl3x
I suppose, but isn't the choice between "work to pay your bills and send your kid to a crappy public school" or "quit your job at tremendous personal cost to perform a job that is, in many other places, performed by the state instead" not exactly a choice at all? At least not one we should be facing in America today, as far as I can see. 
If you're making $30,000 a year and you're offered $24,000 a year to stay home and teach your two kids, that seems like an attractive trade-off.

You don't have to pay for gas everyday, sit in traffic, pay for car maintenance, tires, oil changes, work clothes, dry cleaning, AND child care.

Plus you get to spend more time with your own kids!!  Children who have better relationships with their parents are more emotionally stable and make better life decisions.

+PROFAMILY
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
the violence, fights and drugs in schools will be solved by giving the schools more money?
Do you think the violence, fights and drugs in schools will be solved by giving the schools less money?
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
you want a citation for my observation and opinion?  If I give you specifics I would be doxing myself.
Oh, so, no data, just a personal observation?

do you think parental support like that at home makes students better?  I mean I certainly would think so and that is probably more likely to be the case from people with wealth.  Wealthy people tend to be more educated, more intelligent therefore place a higher priority on education for their children compared to others who didn't grow up that way. 
I get it.

Rich = Good

Poor = Bad
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@3RU7AL
What if you make 60K a year? I presume the state would also offer the teacher's benefits package for medical coverage? 
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@ludofl3x
BY percentage of population of the US, though, wouldn't that make sense probablistically? All I'm saying is that information doesn't give us the WHY, just the THAT. Not insight into why that is. 
Christians want to defund public schools because they don't want their kids to learn about evolution.

If you look at a lot of the curriculum designed specifically for home schoolers, it is clearly creationist propaganda.

There are also examples of Jewish communities demanding vouchers so they can send their kids to religious private schools.
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@ludofl3x
What if you make 60K a year? I presume the state would also offer the teacher's benefits package for medical coverage? 
It would be your personal choice.

No additional bureaucracy, you'd strictly get the per pupil voucher amount.

You could conceivably work part-time or remote-office from home for some jobs.
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@3RU7AL
Christians want to defund public schools because they don't want their kids to learn about evolution.

If you look at a lot of the curriculum designed specifically for home schoolers, it is clearly creationist propaganda.

I agree, this is the conclusion I reach too (evolution or substandard and unsound sex ed programs), but just the numbers don't indicate that, that's what I meant. The unregulated curriculum is a big issue. 
3RU7AL
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@ludofl3x
I agree, this is the conclusion I reach too (evolution or substandard and unsound sex ed programs), but just the numbers don't indicate that, that's what I meant. The unregulated curriculum is a big issue. 
Eh, that part doesn't really bother me so much.

Just as long as they can pass the yearly standardized state tests.
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@3RU7AL
Asking what Jesus would do is part of the problem. Jesus is irrelevant to US law. 
3RU7AL
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In summary,

"The Bible" says nothing about gay wedding cakes.

Artists can't be compelled to create art (free speech) for anyone they find creepy.

Vaccinated kids don't need to fear anti-vaccers and anti-vaccers shouldn't be banned from public spaces.

If you want an abortion, you should join a religion that makes it mandatory in some way so you can claim "religious freedom".

School vouchers are a great idea as long as everyone gets the EXACT same dollar amount per voucher per pupil - including home schoolers.
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If you want an abortion, you should join a religion that makes it mandatory in some way so you can claim "religious freedom".

I am pretty sure that sacrificing children to Baal or Molech is not something that someone can claim religious freedom for.


But to use another less extreme example, I don't believe that a religious conviction that property rights do not exist will fly before the judge when you get caught for theft.




3RU7AL
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@Mopac
If you want an abortion, you should join a religion that makes it mandatory in some way so you can claim "religious freedom".
I am pretty sure that sacrificing children to Baal or Molech is not something that someone can claim religious freedom for.

But to use another less extreme example, I don't believe that a religious conviction that property rights do not exist will fly before the judge when you get caught for theft.
What would you consider a reasonable test of religious sincerity and or other parameters limiting such claims?
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@3RU7AL
I don't think religious sincerity has much to do with it. Society will not tolerate thieves and murderers running about with no consequence. If the secular authorities were to make such an obvious error of justice, I predict that you are going to find a rise in people with the religious conviction that murderers be put to death.

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@3RU7AL
Really, and this is the truth, if a certain segment of the LGBT crowd doesn't stop marketing their lifestyle towards children, they might in fact be working towards the undoing of all the liberties that they have secured over the last half century or so.

3RU7AL
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@Mopac
I don't think religious sincerity has much to do with it. Society will not tolerate thieves and murderers running about with no consequence. If the secular authorities were to make such an obvious error of justice, I predict that you are going to find a rise in people with the religious conviction that murderers be put to death.
I'm pretty sure you can only "murder" a recognized non-embryonic, already born human being.
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@Mopac
Really, and this is the truth, if a certain segment of the LGBT crowd doesn't stop marketing their lifestyle towards children, they might in fact be working towards.
Please explain how promoting the acceptance of a particular lifestyle choice is going to be "the undoing of all the liberties that they have secured over the last half century or so."

What particular crime, injustice or offense do you believe this constitutes.