"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate

Author: 3RU7AL

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Most of religious laws are VERy specific.
yes most, not all
when marriage is described in the bible do the verses ever talk about same sex couples in an accepting way?  Because it often says wives, wife, man all describing heterosexual marriage.  Do you know of any verses where it's ambiguous or open to interpretation with regards to gay marriage being acceptable?
There are no laws prohibiting it.

"The Bible" doesn't describe automobiles or endorse the purchase of and or operation of automobiles.  Are automobiles prohibited as well?

since there are specifics about heterosexual marriage, duties, responsibilities it is of importance, but I am unaware of any such instructions towards homosexual marriage, are there any?
There are no laws prohibiting it.

I will assume there isn't but open to change my mind, but if there aren't any we'd have to ask why, couple of reasons I can think of, they simply forgot?  not very likely, it just wasn't a thing back then and or it couldn't be a thing back then, it was not accepted, acceptable.
There are no laws prohibiting it.

the bible acknowledges man and woman unions,marriages whatever in an acceptable way, but not homosexual ones that I'm aware of.
"The Bible" doesn't describe automobiles or endorse the purchase of and or operation of automobiles.  Are automobiles prohibited as well?

There are no laws prohibiting it.
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@Snoopy
Generally, that is how it should be for closely held corporations.  They are already protected by the United States Constitution.  
The legislation is clearly pro-discrimination.
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@3RU7AL
Perhaps I was overly vague.  Your repeated allusion to some sort of loophole is not what I was referring to.  I simply meant that it was normal for a closely held corporation to have respect in the United States according to (fundamental) rights.

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@Snoopy
Perhaps I was overly vague.  Your repeated allusion to some sort of loophole is not what I was referring to.  I simply meant that it was normal for a closely held corporation to have respect in the United States according to (fundamental) rights.
So, you're arguing that this particular legislation is purely redundant?
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@3RU7AL
There are no laws prohibiting it
there's nothing that says it's ok or even possible, unlike heterosexual marriages, so to include one but not the other can very easily be interpreted as one being possible/acceptable while the other is not.  Which makes sense because of what the bible does say about homosexuality which is something you shouldn't do, or is that incorrect?  Does the bible permit, endorse or promote homosexuality in the same way as heterosexuality and heterosexual marriage?  Certainly if they were equally acceptable they would be right?  and yet....


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@Deb-8-a-bull
Do you agree with " The Church " on everything?
If I don't, I certainly desire to be.

I trust the experience of the church, and I respect the holy orders.



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@3RU7AL
Perhaps I was overly vague.  Your repeated allusion to some sort of loophole is not what I was referring to.  I simply meant that it was normal for a closely held corporation to have respect in the United States according to (fundamental) rights.
So, you're arguing that this particular legislation is purely redundant?

I haven't read it yet, but that is actually possible.  The states have lots of legislation which might be considered redundant at any given time.  It might be used politically to help republican politicians keep up with the times, could just be a piece of mind thing, a statement piece, or maybe there is a process that would be made more reliable if bigots were to end up on a panel.  Also, I doubt this is the case, but that belief is so common that formalization of legal forms of descrimination is probably more efficient for paperwork.
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@3RU7AL
So basically, I have the right to believe these things.

And you don't believe I do.




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@Mopac
So basically, I have the right to believe these things.

And you don't believe I do.
You can believe whatever you like.

Just don't try and blame it on your religion unless your religion specifically endorses or prohibits that particular viewpoint.

I'm just asking for the text.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
There are no laws prohibiting it
there's nothing that says it's ok or even possible, unlike heterosexual marriages, so to include one but not the other can very easily be interpreted as one being possible/acceptable while the other is not. 
"The Bible" doesn't prohibit polygamy, and appears to endorse it.

"The Bible" specifically prohibits divorce, and especially the remarriage of people who have been divorced, calling it "adultery" which is punishable by stoning.

By this standard, all wedding cakes celebrating marriages of divorcees ARE CONTRARY TO CHRISTIANITY.

Which makes sense because of what the bible does say about homosexuality which is something you shouldn't do, or is that incorrect? 
I've stated repeatedly that it is a "sin" but it is not worse or more evil than any of a raft of other "sins" that these same people ignore on a daily basis.

Does the bible permit, endorse or promote homosexuality in the same way as heterosexuality and heterosexual marriage? 
It specifically prohibits divorcees from remarrying (except to their original partner).  It does not specifically prohibit gay marriage.

Certainly if they were equally acceptable they would be right?  and yet....
Not necessarily.  Do you believe that polygamy and monogamy are "equally acceptable"?  Well they would appear to be if you only look at "The Bible".
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@3RU7AL
My religion certainly teaches that...


   (a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman;
          (b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and
          (c)  Male (man) or female (woman) refer to an individual's immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy and genetics at time of birth.

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By this standard, all wedding cakes celebrating marriages of divorcees ARE CONTRARY TO CHRISTIANITY.
Maybe so.
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@3RU7AL
"The Bible" doesn't prohibit polygamy, and appears to endorse it.
that sounds like a statement of interpretation

By this standard, all wedding cakes celebrating marriages of divorcees ARE CONTRARY TO CHRISTIANITY.
you could be right but I know different interpretations have been taught, exceptions and allowances
I've stated repeatedly that it is a "sin" but it is not worse or more evil than any of a raft of other "sins" that these same people ignore on a daily basis.
I don't know the sin grading scale so I can't really speak on if any are worse or what level of seriousness they are ranked.

Do you believe that polygamy and monogamy are "equally acceptable"?  Well they would appear to be if you only look at "The Bible".
I'm aware there was polygamy in the old testament but don't know about the new one, if it's in the new testament I don't know the specifics or context.  But I don't see that as relevant because even if what you say is true about divorce we know some bible based religions don't practice that and do allow it.  Those churches are still recognized as legitimate protected religions.  There's no hypocrite or inconsistency test to be a protected religion, not that I know of anyway.  If there was there could only be one bible religion and only one that would have constitutional protections.
is there any legal basis to the inconsistency charges you keep bring up?
to claim a legal religious objection or defense must you prove consistency with the sins you've mentioned?  I'm not that familiar with the laws pertaining to that if there are any.




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@Goldtop
I actually agree. Thank God we're not living in a religious totalitarian society.
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Religious freedom.
One properly thought out " pretend " religious group could make a mockery of just about everything. 

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@Deb-8-a-bull
American religious anarchy/freedom is conducive to creation of new heretical religious sects. 


Something about the devil being the author of confusion or something.
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@Mopac
My religion certainly teaches that...

          (a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman;
- Except when they are between one man and 1000 women.

          (b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and
- Which has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

          (c)  Male (man) or female (woman) refer to an individual's immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy and genetics at time of birth.
- This is nowhere to be found in "The Bible".
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@3RU7AL
(a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman;
- Except when they are between one man and 1000 women.
He observes orthodoxy, not a Mormonism.

          (b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and
- Which has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.
Pretty much, how I would put it.  My perception is that the practice of homosexuality has recently been introduced into the subject of marriage through public persona. 

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
is there any legal basis to the inconsistency charges you keep bring up?
Yes, for example, if a prison inmate demands a kosher meal, a rabbi is called in to evaluate whether or not the inmate actually keeps the Jewish traditions (of whatever recognized sect they prefer) to make sure they are NOT simply cherry-picking "kosher meal" in order to simply get better food.

In another example, a native american boy wanted to grow his hair long, in the tradition of his ancestors, but the public school he attended said it was against their dress code.  When he tried to claim a religious exemption, they called the village elders to determine if growing long hair was "mandatory" in their religion and it was determined to be "traditional" but not "mandatory" and so he was forced to cut his hair to comply.

Based on these cases, a "religious objection" is not taken at face value.  The claim needs to be backed up with some verifiable evidence and consistency.
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@Snoopy
(a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman; 
- Except when they are between one man and 1000 women.
He observes orthodoxy, not a Mormonism.
Were Abraham, David, and Solomon all Mormons? [LINK]

          (b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and 
- Which has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.
Pretty much, actually.  My perception is that the practice of homosexuality has recently been introduced into the subject of marriage through public persona.
Do you think the cake man objects to making cakes for hetro couples who have engaged in pre-marital sex?
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@3RU7AL
a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman; 
- Except when they are between one man and 1000 women.
He observes orthodoxy, not a Mormonism.
Were Abraham, David, and Solomon all Mormons?
I believe Mormonism is a relatively recent American development, which I am ignorant of.  I have no knowledge of why polygamy is associated with it.  They were not Mormons, no.
(b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and 
- Which has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.
Pretty much, actually.  My perception is that the practice of homosexuality has recently been introduced into the subject of marriage through public persona.
Do you think the cake man objects to making cakes for hetro couples who have engaged in pre-marital sex?
In good faith, I doubt that in this matter he cares whether or not a couple has sinned, only whether he is himself.  Assuming this to be the case, unless the cake is implicated with a sexual event, I doubt very much that he would object to serving.

c)  Male (man) or female (woman) refer to an individual's immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy and genetics at time of birth.
- This is nowhere to be found in "The Bible".
Why does it need to be in The Bible?
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@3RU7AL

Based on these cases, a "religious objection" is not taken at face value.  The claim needs to be backed up with some verifiable evidence and consistency.

if a religion does not, has never and will not preform gay marriages that is consistency.  your examples of individuals are more about if they actually practice or keep the religion to which they claim the ascribe to.

does the bible allow or condone homosexuality?  afaik that's a big no, in which case homosexual marriage need not be mentioned, so this claim that "the bible doesn't say you can't" doesn't matter.  
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
if a religion does not, has never and will not preform gay marriages that is consistency. 
A Church is basically a private club.  They can do whatever they want.

The context here is regarding a business that is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.

your examples of individuals are more about if they actually practice or keep the religion to which they claim the ascribe to.
The same level of scrutiny would seem to apply to the cake man.  You can't just refuse service to homos because they are "sinners" and then cheerily serve every other "sinner" (divorcee, adulterer, murder, thief, tax cheat, Sabbath violator) that walks through your door.

does the bible allow or condone homosexuality? 
Of course not.  It also specifically condemns divorce and the remarriage of divorcees.

afaik that's a big no, in which case homosexual marriage need not be mentioned, so this claim that "the bible doesn't say you can't" doesn't matter.  
I'm pretty sure it does matter.  Especially when these same people violate the text of "The Bible" every time they celebrate the marriage of divorcees.
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@3RU7AL
A Church is basically a private club. They can do whatever they want.
They can, but they might have to answer to it.

The context here is regarding a business that is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.
Why couldn't the government impose issues on grounds of commerce as it pertains to private clubs?

The same level of scrutiny would seem to apply to the cake man.  You can't just refuse service to homos because they are "sinners" and then cheerily serve every other "sinner" (divorcee, adulterer, murder, thief, tax cheat, Sabbath violator) that walks through your door.
This has never been proven.  What you are actually contending by throwing the real man under the bus to ignore what is actually happening is that people have to cater, divorce, adultery, theft, cheating on taxes, and violating the sabbath.  The people who are behind this obviously seek to destroy the Christian way of life.

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@3RU7AL
As I said, I don't respect your appeal to scripture as you are neither Orthodox or a Christian at all. You are being disingenuous.

Also, I told you before that Orthodoxy is not a religion that comes from the bible. That sort of thing is a protestant phenomena, because they often have nothing else to work with. 

We didn't just sit around for 300 some years post resurrection waiting for the New Testament canon to be compiled. The church was there the whole time.



Same sex marriage is not recognized as a reality. Homosexual behavior is certainly considered sexual immorality.

Polygamy is not allowed, though certain grace is granted in the case that say, a Muslim with multiple wives becomes Christian.



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@Snoopy
The context isn't a business open to the public, it is about Christian adoption agencies being forced to do immoral things like allow homosexual couples adopt children.


3RU7AL is trying to obscure what this legislation is really about because he clearly isn't capable of discussing this subject honestly.

This legislation is about protecting religious organizations.

disgusted
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God's are man made
Religions are man made
Marriage is man made.
Get over it.
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@Snoopy
"sinner" (divorcee, adulterer, murder, thief, tax cheat, Sabbath violator) that walks through your door.
This has never been proven.  What you are actually contending by throwing the real man under the bus to ignore what is actually happening is that people have to cater, divorce, adultery, theft, cheating on taxes, and violating the sabbath.  The people who are behind this obviously seek to destroy the Christian way of life.
What do you mean, "never been proven"?

The cake guy makes cakes for everyone EXCEPT the gays.  TONS of other "sinners" pay him good money every day.
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@disgusted
Thank You, nice to see an honest statement.




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@3RU7AL
"sinner" (divorcee, adulterer, murder, thief, tax cheat, Sabbath violator) that walks through your door.
This has never been proven.  What you are actually contending by throwing the real man under the bus to ignore what is actually happening is that people have to cater, divorce, adultery, theft, cheating on taxes, and violating the sabbath.  The people who are behind this obviously seek to destroy the Christian way of life.
What do you mean, "never been proven"?

The cake guy makes cakes for everyone EXCEPT the gays.  TONS of other "sinners" pay him good money every day.

We have been over this, multiple times..  The cake guy claims to make cakes for everyone.  Maybe he really is secretly a hateful bigot rather than a practicing Christian, but he has never been shown not to make cakes for people because they have sinned.  It appears as though people construct an image that they can hate, so that it can be attacked.  I don't understand how you fall for it, over and over again.