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@Mopac
What does God being the Truth have to do with how you became an atheist? That is, after all, the topic of this thread.
How Did You Become An Atheist?
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@Stronn
I like many here was at one time a know-it-all dipshit. I'm pretty sure that is how I became an atheist.
Thankfully, I am not an atheist anymore. There was a time.
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@Mopac
I notice you don't mention whether you are still a know-it-all dipshit.
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@Stronn
I don't know.
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@Mopac
Oh, you're an atheist turned theist. Okay that just means you're hopeless then. I'm glad we could clear that up :D
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I think it really means that you aren't hopeless.
The Truth will set you free.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
+1Oh, you're an atheist turned theist. Okay that just means you're hopeless then. I'm glad we could clear that up :D
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@TheRealNihilist
In some sense, we are like nihilists.
To you, the world is everything and God is nothing. And so your hope is in the void.
To us, the world is nothing, and God is everything. And so our hope is in eternity.
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@Mopac
In some sense, we are like nihilists.To you, the world is everything and God is nothing. And so your hope is in the void.To us, the world is nothing, and God is everything. And so our hope is in eternity.
I don't even take that position.
Now I also got from you is that God is:
Ultimate reality
Supreme being
Hope
More will be added when you decide to attribute it to God.
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@TheRealNihilist
The Ultimate Reality
It is what it is.
Whatever the ultimate reality is, that is God.
I ask God, "Who are you?"
God replies "I Am That I Am"
My farther is a pastor of a church. We got into one day about our God and after things got heated I realized I had reached a "logical wall". I always knew what faith was but once I looked at it again in this context it really started to not make sense. After doing some resascher I read a quote from Thomas Paine that said “The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.” After I looked into this i was done.
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@WyseGui
Unfortunately, heterodox Christianity a lot of times seems to be "We don't understand any of this stuff, but we got to believe it because we got to believe it."
That isn't really how Orthodox Christianity operates, we know what it is we believe. It is something that is lost in western forms of "Christianity". We also are the original church founded by Jesus and the apostles.
One thing I can tell you with certainty is that neither do we or ever have done anything silly like worship the sun. The God we recognize is actually truth itself.
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@Mopac
The quote says it is a parody of not part of. We know Christians don't worship the sun. But a large part of the framework of Christian religion was basically taken from Egyptian Sun god worship. But that is just how I see it.
The problem wasn't a lack of knowledge. He is knowledgeable on the subject. The problem is lack of unbiased logic.The debate will always hit a wall because there will always be a lack on concrete evidence or arguments based on concrete evidence, on the religious side of the debate. Saying God is truth itself isn't a concrete statement. In no way can that be measured or tested. It is purely philosophical statement that you have to accept based on faith.The evidence of things unseen.
to the actual question
How Did You Become An Atheist?
no one is born believing, I've never heard of anyone that was anyway, believing is something you have to actively do which is opposite of atheist when you don't have to do anything, you don't have to try to not believe right?
so everyone is an atheist until they are not and can become so again.
pretty simple.
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@WyseGui
Heterodox Churches certainly have a type of knowledge, but it isn't right knowledge. And that makes sense, because they are usally 2 or more steps away from the original church.
Believe it or not, the insistence on "concrete" is something that comes out of western thinking. The logical end of protestant scholasticism is worldly secularism. Really, nihilism and absurdism.
There is a certain absurdity in expressing the uncreated within the medium of creation, and thst is what we have to work with. The most concrete image of God is still that, an image.
The Orthodox Church understands these things very well. God is incomprehensible, uncircumventable. The Ultimate Realitynis not something that can be disproven, but its existence is not only absolutely necessary, but self evident.
Western theology developed out of what is called "Roman Catholicism". Roman Catholicism broke away from The Orthodox Church, and they developed a different theology. They took matters of the faith as things to be arrived at logically and philosophically. Protestantism inherited this from Roman Catholicism even after breaking away from it. Atheistic philosophy naturally grew out of protestant scholasticism.
Now here is one of the main distinctions between western theology and western philosophy that came out of it and Orthodox, or true Christian theology. Orthodox Theology is apodictic truth in nature. What that means is, when properly understood it is self evident. It isn't arrived at through philosophy or reason. We do not get closer to The Truth through logic and reason, we better abide in The Truth through the cleansing of our hearts, our minds, and the purifying of the intellect.
And surely you can see how this is an undeniable reality. There is a proper way of loving The Truth. The cleansing of the nous.
It isn't so much about believing the right facts as it is about seeing clearly. It is the difference between looking at everything through a dirty lens and taking the time to make sure the lens is clean.
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@Mopac
I am aware of the history of Christianity. That is why I posted that quote. Thanks for sharing anyways.
I am finding the same problem with your response however. I don't think the difference between heterodox and orthodox is answer. The problem is that you are already indoctrinated. So you can't have an unbiased discussion about God. "Truth" is not self evident. It is subjective.The fact that you do not need logic and reason to reach it show its bias nature. This is the same reason we sacrificed virgins to volcanoes.
The reason humanity have advanced this far is because of the unbiased nature and predictability of logic. True logic, since it is also fallible. The entire universe works this way. Math for example, is logic incarnate, and can be used to explain almost anything that applies logic. But somehow religion has found a way to obtain undeniable truth in the universe without using logic, reason, math, or science which is used to explain every single atom in our universe. The missing component here is human nature. Which religion consistently underestimates.
Orthodox Theology is apodictic truth in nature. What that means is, when properly understood it is self evident
And surely you can see how this is an undeniable reality. There is a proper way of loving The Truth. The cleansing of the nous.
This is indoctrination. In fact, saying you need to understand something for it to be self-evident is a conflicting statement. If something is self evident it is clear and obvious. We basically live in a universe that makes it impossible to prove his existence. In the 1000s of years the religion has existed, no one has been able to definitively do this. So what is apodictically true about orthodox theology? As I said earlier, we will inevitably reach a wall in this debate. Because, your argument are based on faith. Which is fine, because that's religion. But the logic or reason used in religion wont work anywhere else in life.
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@WyseGui
"Truth" is not self evident. It is subjective.The fact that you do not need logic and reason to reach it show its bias nature. This is the same reason we sacrificed virgins to volcanoes.
The Ultimate Reality is not subjective.
An example of apodictic truth is "The Ultimate Reality exists". When we say "God", that is what is meant.
And certainly, you can arrive to this conclusion with sound logic, but you do not need logic to know that The Ultimste Reality exists.
The reason humanity have advanced this far is because of the unbiased nature and predictability of logic. True logic, since it is also fallible. The entire universe works this way. Math for example, is logic incarnate, and can be used to explain almost anything that applies logic. But somehow religion has found a way to obtain undeniable truth in the universe without using logic, reason, math, or science which is used to explain every single atom in our universe. The missing component here is human nature. Which religion consistently underestimates.
What about purifying ones heart, mind, and intellect (Nous) does not make one a more rational or logical person? While western Europe and its corrupted form of religion was wallowing in the dark ages, the sciences flourished in the east. In fact, the west didn't even go through their renaissance until after the 4th crusade when the Latin crusades sacked Constantinople and took back with them relics, artwork, and libraries worth of books.
The religion you are thinking of is certainly not the enlightened faith that I came to, not out of indoctrination, but out of a love of The Truth.
Saying you need to understand something for it to be self-evident is a conflicting statement. If something is self evident it is clear and obvious
If you dismiss something before you understand it, this is a foolish thing to do. I am sure you will agree. Yes, you need to understand what is actually being said before you can see that it is self evident.
I think it is also worth noting that Christianity is a mystery religion, meaning that it takes the external form of allegories, parables, and such. That being the case, there is a certain period of catechisis expected before the Mystagogy is revealed.
Spoilers.
It is literally Truth worship.
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@Mopac
I'm a Christian on this forum, what about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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@Mopac
I understand the words you are using. I just do not agree. I get that the Ultimate Reality is referring to God, although it sounds like you are describing a concept and not an entity, but it is not apodictic truth. It isn't a fact that God exists. At best we can say we are ot sure.Therefore there is no sound logic to lead to that conclusion. If it was an apodicitc truth, there would be and we would be aware of it. Especially if other people, like yourself, have already discovered this sound logic. We keep talking around it but lets hear it. What is the logic used?
What about purifying ones heart, mind, and intellect (Nous) does not make one a more rational or logical person?
I don't know what purifying means, so not necessarily. Especially since you already said you don't need logic and reason to get closer to "The Truth". How you came to the religion doesn't matter, you are fully indoctrinated now. What does purifying mean in context and why would it lead to more rational logic?
The religion you are thinking of is certainly not the enlightened faith that I came to, not out of indoctrination, but out of a love of The Truth.
You keep assuming I'm only speaking on western religion. I only mentioned my father because of the OP but I'm talking about Christianity as a whole. The argument is the same no matter the denomination or country. Logic isn't a western thing. it is a thing every creature on this planet uses willingly or not. Religion is the only thing I can think of that doesn't apply it.
If you dismiss something before you understand it, this is a foolish thing to do. I am sure you will agree. Yes, you need to understand what is actually being said before you can see that it is self evident.
I would never dismiss something before understanding it. That isn't what I meant. God or The Truth is not an axiom.This is the most consistently debated subject in recent history. It is to you because it is fundamental to religion. And faith is the fuel for that truth. Evidence of things unseen.
That being the case, there is a certain period of catechisis expected before the Mystagogy is revealed.
Then it is not self-evident. This is the process of indoctrination I'm talking about. You need to be educated before you can understand it. But the education is not logic based its faith based. You speak as if it is a lack of knowledge on my part that caused my beliefs. I;m telling you that's not the case. In fact it was the opposite. It was learning the true origins of religion and learning to overcome indoctrinate thinking to use objective sound reasoning. The things you are saying only make sense if you already believe in God.
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@WyseGui
I understand the words you are using. I just do not agree. I get that the Ultimate Reality is referring to God, although it sounds like you are describing a concept and not an entity, but it is not apodictic truth. It isn't a fact that God exists
The Ultimate Reality is not a concept. The Ultimate Reality obviously exists, right?
I don't know what purifying means, so not necessarily. Especially since you already said you don't need logic and reason to get closer to "The Truth". How you came to the religion doesn't matter, you are fully indoctrinated now. What does purifying mean in context and why would it lead to more rational logic?
If you don't know what I mean, why are you dismissing it offhand? It would be more reasonable find out what it is I mean rather than simply dismissing me as being "indoctrinated".
If you want to be reasonable, by all means, ask me to clarify what I mean. It takes the same amount of thought to accept something immediately as it does to dismiss something immediately, you know.
I didn't say it was a concept. I said you are describing as if it was a concept and not an entity.
You have made a lot of assertions during this debate. Most notably the apodictic truth of God/The Truths existence. You also said with understanding it becomes self-evident and sort of implied my lack of knowledge is the problem. I am denying those claims. As we have discussed them. Why would I dismiss something you haven't even told me. And I literaly just asked you in my last reply to tell me the logic used. You obviously didn't read my entire reply.
But no it does not obviously exist. You are using this term very loosely. That term means God to me. I have heard it before in debates. So that is what I assumed it meant. If it is not please tell me.
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@WyseGui
The Ultimate Reality exists.
Do you dispute this?
But no it does not obviously exist.
Are you kidding me. Specifically answered that exact question. You didn't even bother to answer the question you complained about me not asking. You just ignored the fact that I asked it and you didn't see it because you are ignoring most of what I am saying. This is why I don't post on DDO anymore.
I have answered all of your questions. The problems is that you are not reading it or ignoring it all together. If you are not going to read what I write and respond to it, why write it.
Why don't you define what The Ultimate Reality means to you and the sound logic that leads to the conclusion that it exists.
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@WyseGui
Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"
The Nous is what we are talking about here. It commomly gets translated into "intellect" or "mind", etc. So what does this mean to purify the nous?
If we were to honestly examine ourselves, we would find that we have motivations, influences, passions, and all sorts of things that effect sound judgement. To purify the nous is the active effort of discerning these idols that sneak their way into our psyche, obscuring our discernment, and through love of The Truth, allow The Spirit of Truth to topple these strongholds.
Another way of putting it....
We are bearers of the image of God. Purifying the nous is like dusting the dirt off this image, wiping off the muck so that the image can be seen clearly.
The discipline is in abiding in The Truth. That being the case, it is more than simply believing with the mind. It is a walk.
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@WyseGui
Your impatience is a symptom of a muddied nous.
The therepeutic method of the church is intended to cleanse these defilements.
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@WyseGui
The Ultimate Reality.
It is exactly what that means.
How can words do it justice?
It isn't what you can think it is, that's for sure. It is not a conception, it is reality in the truest and most complete sense.
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@Mopac
I am impatient? You just replied 3 times before I got one off. That is impatience. You really aren't reading this are you. Again:
I didn't say it was a concept. I said you are describing as if it was a concept and not an entity.
I never said The Ultimate Reality is a concept.
Also:
That term means God to me. I have heard it before in debates. So that is what I assumed it meant. If it is not please tell me.
A simple yes or no will do. Don't make this more difficult then it is. Yo should absolutely be able to describe something in words. Otherwise why do you believe. Surely someone told you or you read it somewhere.
This is not impatience. I am taking time to have an honest and sincere conversation with you about a serious topic and you really aren't even responding to me. You complained multiple times about me not asking the right questions, now I'm answering your questions and that is your response. You have to be fair about this. Unless your just trolling. In which case, you got me.
Nous also refers to common sense and practical knowledge. So no I will not cleanse that and it isn't muddied. You are saying I have to except God(Spirit of truth) in order to see the truth. That is redundant and I have already sipped the Kol-aid at that point. That is not truth that is indoctrination.
The question is: What is the logic used that brought you to these conclusions? You never answered.
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@WyseGui
Reality in the truest and most complete sense.
The Ultimate Reality.
You know, the way it actually is as opposed to how I or anyone can describe it.
So you are saying there is no Ultimate Reality?
Can you say it plainly and simply?
"There is no ultimate reality"
That would clear up a lot. If that isn't what you are. saying, tell me what you are saying.
And if you can do that, I will tell you the reason it must exist and that it isn't reasonable to say otherwise.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
My story is way too long... and also leads me down a metaphysical route which isn't really atheist but agnostic in nature. I'll try to be concise.
Basically, ever since i can remember... and this is 4 years old and up (maybe even 3 bc i corroborated my memories with my family) I've always thought i came from another reality. This feeling of being in the wrong place haunted me for awhile and made me malleable to other faiths... but i always found a flaw in all of them bc they don't know Me. And that's important... Fast forward again through heaven, hell and spiritual experiences, what i realized is whatever the answer is... whether it's heaven, hell, nirvana, Valhalla, or nothingness... it's going to happen to "me." If i stay conscious... i will have to deal with whatever is next... no one else. So, fast forward again to now... i believe no one knows my mind better than i do. Whatever you believe... i don't give af... that belief is in your head and has nothing to do with me. That's my mentality now.
I will continue to believe i'm in full control of my consciousness. No one else. I remember my childhood again, i remember who i always knew i am... so, i think it's best to go with that until we can figure out what was before the big bang and maybe prove all the spiritual people wrong or prove all the atheists wrong. Sure i agree with atheist about a sky daddy... but, I'm just happy to know god exists in my mind... what are the implications of that... different story.
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@WyseGui
I will not cleanse that(the nous) and it isn't muddied
The fact that you think you have a perfectly clean nous is definitive proof that you are in a state of prelest.