Mosquitos are bad.
207 Killed In Sri Lanka by Muslims
Posts
Total:
155
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@Stephen
So you've never read the bible I see. The ignorance you show in your posts is hilarious.
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@blamonkey
To saddle the entire Muslim population with labels like "terrorist" seems a bit presumptuous .
It is "presumptuous" and I don't believe anyone here has "saddle the entire Muslim population with labels like "terrorist", have they, that would be " presumptuous" of you to think so, wouldn't it.
There are over 1 billion people identifying as Muslim in the world
Yes, and?
Condemnations of extremists from moderate Muslims is not a new thing .
Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is? Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the So called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
Across many countries, Muslim support for ISIS is diminutive.
That is to say extremely small. I don't agree, but what is your point?
In the US, France, Lebanon, and Israel, over 80% of Muslims support US intervention to eradicate ISIS according to Pew's opinion surveys
Yet there are apologist for Islamic terrorism who blame it on Western interference in Middle Eastern affairs. They can't win either way can they?
This is for good reason, as most victims of the tyrannical group happen to be Muslim according to estimates from the Dept. of State
I would like to refer you to a post made by Greyparrot on this thread here>> POST # 6 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1667 who states :
"Gallup poll collected extensive data in a project called "Who Speaks for Islam?". John Esposito and Dalia Mogahed present data relevant to Islamic views on peace, and more, in their book Who Speaks for Islam? The book reports Gallup poll data from random samples in over 35 countries using Gallup's various research techniques (e.g. pairing male and female interviewers, testing the questions beforehand, communicating with local leaders when approval is necessary, travelling by foot if that is the only way to reach a region, etc.)
There was a great deal of data. It suggests, firstly, that individuals who dislike America and consider the September 11 attacks to be "perfectly justified" form a statistically distinct group, with much more extreme views. The authors call this 7% of Muslims "Politically Radicalized".They chose that title "because of their radical political orientation" and clarify "we are not saying that all in this group commit acts of violence. However, those with extremist views are a potential source for recruitment or support for terrorist groups." The data also indicates that poverty is not simply to blame for the comparatively radical views of this 7% of Muslims, who tend to be better educated than moderates.
The authors say that, contrary to what the media may indicate, most Muslims believe that the September 11 attacks cannot actually be justified at all. The authors called this 55% of Muslims "Moderates". Included in that category were an additional 12% who said the attacks almost cannot be justified at all (thus 67% of Muslims were classified as Moderates). 26% of Muslims were neither moderates nor radicals, leaving the remaining 7% called "Politically Radicalized". Esposito and Mogahed explain that the labels should not be taken as being perfectly definitive. Because there may be individuals who would generally not be considered radical, although they believe the attacks were justified, or vice versa.
105,000,000= 7% of 1.5 Billion.
That's not just a few nutjobs like the 3000 KKK members in the USA."
If religion is key to Muslim's action in killing hundreds of people, then why would so many denounce ISIS and affiliated extremist groups?
While thousands still support it. SEE Greyparrots quote above.
Certainly, there are ideological ISIS fighters who believe that they are doing exactly what is suggested in the Quran or the religion's many Hadiths. But, to suggest that religion is the driving motivator for all ISIS fighters is an oversimplification.
Religion maybe won't be the "driving factor "of some of the individual fighters, who knows? But the driving factor for Islamic State IS to create an Islamic state through Jihad. Which then the individual fighter IS fighting Islamic Jihad to create an ISLAMIC state..
I have criticized Christianity and avidly questioned and scrutinised the New Testament much more often than I ever have Islam.Evidence says otherwise.
No the evidence proves you to be extremely poorly researched on my threads. I have started more threads scrutinising and questioning Christianity and the New Testament (and the Old) than I have Islam This is a fact. look upon the word fact.
Or simply start here and count my threads for yourself
Threads started by Stephen
You will find there are 6 on Islam and over 25 on the subject of Christianity. That's roughly 5 to 1 you buffoon.
Go on now, off you trot and see how ridiculously untrue your claim actually is and what a bare faced liar you actually are. Go on now, off you go.
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@Stephen
It is "presumptuous" and I don't believe anyone here has "saddle the entire Muslim population with labels like "terrorist", have they, that would be " presumptuous" of you to think so, wouldn't it.
Read the OP:
"There religion vouches for this act of terrorism, and when they do it, they are not punished.
It is not the people, but it is the Religion's."
Seems to be implying a few things about Muslims, like that their religion compels them to commit terrorism. I found that over 1 billion people identify as Muslim, and not all of them are trying to kill people en masse. So yeah, it does seem to imply that Islam equates to terrorism.
There are over 1 billion people identifying as Muslim in the worldYes, and?
So... if there are so many Muslims in the world and not every single one is trying to "kill the infidels" or whatever, then it can be assumed that the religion is not the only driving force for terror to be committed.
Across many countries, Muslim support for ISIS is diminutive.That is to say extremely small. I don't agree, but what is your point?
Muslims don't support the type of regime that kills them. If all of them are terrorists driven by a terrible religion, then why are they condemning violence in support of an Islamic State?
105,000,000= 7% of 1.5 Billion.That's not just a few nutjobs like the 3000 KKK members in the USA."
On a related note, 9% of Americans, according to a recent poll, believe that it is acceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views, or about 22 million Americans (1). I don't really want them speaking for me or the rest of America. Sure, there are differences between accepting the views of age-old racists and justifying the attacks, but the 9% of America that believe it okay to hold these opinions are not representative of everyone. That said, much like the people who support the attacks, if every single one of these people went out of their way to join neo-Nazi groups or attack the US, there would be mass chaos that we probably would be aware of. Also, I wouldn't be sure that there are only 3,000 members in all white supremacist organizations considering the well documented increase in this type of domestic terror in the US as documented by many organizations, and compiled by the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org (2). I would be curious to see how many of this 7% was recruited into ISIS. This is especially true as, over the time, people have come to adopt the opinions that the violence demonstrated by ISIS can never be tolerated. In fact, another Pew Poll in 2017 shows that Muslims were nearly 20% more likely to suggest that “targeting and killing civilians can be justified in order to further a political, social or religious cause,” than the rest of the population in the US (3). The poll also shows growing concern for terrorism claimed to be inspired by Islam from the Muslim community in the US.
Certainly, there are ideological ISIS fighters who believe that they are doing exactly what is suggested in the Quran or the religion's many Hadiths. But, to suggest that religion is the driving motivator for all ISIS fighters is an oversimplification.Religion maybe won't be the "driving factor "of some of the individual fighters, who knows? But the driving factor for Islamic State IS to create an Islamic state through Jihad. Which then the individual fighter IS fighting Islamic Jihad to create an ISLAMIC state..
This is brushing near the main point I was trying to make. For many, especially foreign fighters and other recruits that have rudimentary knowledge of Islam, this is a way of escape from their ordinary lives. Some Muslims perceive that they are being maligned in home countries, and as a result join these groups with the promise of better lives. Lofty ambitions of statehood probably don't factor into many who decide to join. See my Brookings evidence in my previous response if you are curious. It explains how the problem of recruitment is multi-faceted, not because of one sole factor.
Condemnations of extremists from moderate Muslims is not a new thing .Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is? Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the So called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
How about a Muslim that doesn't try to kill you because of your ideology? Plenty of those. I mean, not all Christians call for slaves to be obedient to their masters, condemn gays, or shoot up Planned Parenthood. Yeah, I would imagine that identifying as Muslim means that you have become somewhat acquainted with the Quran and associated Hadiths. FYI, one needs to disassociate the Hadiths with the actual Quran. The 72 virgins quote that many people refer to when discussing the purported evils of Islam actually comes from a Hadith that many in the Muslim community believe to be mistranslated (4).
Sources
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@Stephen
You will find there are 6 on Islam and over 25 on the subject of Christianity. That's roughly 5 to 1 you buffoon.
Lets see if you are not lying.
The Sound of Silence Something to do with SJW
You won't get away with saying this in the U.K. Random guy on YouTube
Why was the NT Zacharias "struck dumb"? Christianity
The problem with the "risen" Jesus. Christianity
John the Baptist Has a Few Problems Christianity
What Exactly Was the Role of the Apostles? Christianity
The Most Important Question Christians Should Ask Christianity
Who Can Explain This Verse To Me? Christianity
Lazarus. The "raising". Christianity
Committed by Faith Christianity
One God? It is simply Not True Christianity
Jesus Was Terrified Of What Was To Come. Christianity
Barabbas. More Lies! Christianity
I Hear the Phrase often " the war in heaven",..... Christianity
Who was the God of Joseph, Son of Jacob? Christianity
Abraham Was Backward Christianity
Can anyone explain this nonsense? Christianity
Jesus "the son of an ordinary carpenter" ? Christianity
70,000 illegals and 1 Christian Abibi Christianity and Islam
Who’s The Fool? Christianity
“Israel My People” Christianity
Christmas & Why Bullshit has Become Christian Dogma. Christianity
Paradise _ Then what? Christianity
Very Flesh & Blood "angels". Christianity
Am I A Christianophobe? More so Islam
Who Raised Them? Christianity
Well guess I was wrong. I am moving the goalposts to I have seen a trend that with Christianity you are sticking to what the Bible states but with Islam you always speak about what Muslims did instead of what the Quran says. What do you say about that?
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@TheRealNihilist
My experience has been that Stephen still speaks about what the Qur'an states. Contrastly, blamonkey as an example, only talks about Muslims in my experience, not Islam. Blamonkey has a different approach than Stephen, in that he has always seemed to speak with respect to international interests, like large scale conflicts in the Middle East.
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@Snoopy
Stephen in order to meet my criteria is to do this:
X amount of Muslims from X region have these views. This has been linked to X event occurring (linking a reliable source as evidence) in the same region. X source (also a reliable source) states the leading cause of X action is X thing. This should be addressed as a problem and I offer X as the solution. This solution has worked in X scenario (giving evidence of this occurring as well).
Haven't seen too much of blamonkey but he does source which is a step up from Stephen.
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@TheRealNihilist
Well guess I was wrong.
Ya don't say!? Your always wrong , about everything. You tell lies and make things up. You say I have said things and put other peoples quotes down to me. You are always chasing your own arse because you cannot keep up with a thread or grasp simple explanations.
with Islam you always speak about what Muslims did instead of what the Quran says.
Listen buffoon. I am always quoting the quran. I quote many Islamic academics, preachers and Imams. It is the thing to do when the subject happens to be fkn Islam!
If muslims are responsible for something I may or may not comment on it. My gripe is and always will be Islam and the quran, I believe it is at the heart of ALL Islamic terrorism. And I have made that point clear time and time again. And I don't give two fingers that you don't like the words I use. They are my words. I won't tell you how to write or what to write so afford me the same fkn courtesy. I have found that on this site diplomacy and reasoning go out of the window the second you disagree with anyone. If you don't like what I write, STAY OF MY THREADS AND DO NOT REPLY TO WHAT I WRITE ON ANY OTHER THREADS IN RESPONSE TO ANYONE ELSE. it is that simple.
have seen a trend that with Christianity you are sticking to what the Bible states
As i have mentioned before, your buffoonery knows absolutely no bounds. LISTEN the bible says what it says. So what do you mean I am sticking to it? I would say what the bible DOESN'T SAY, would I? I stick to what the quran states too, but apologists for islam like yourself don't like that.
So tell me buffoon, has it been discovered yet who is responsible for the Sri Lankan attack on Christians at prayer on the holiest day of the Christian calendar? because I don't know and HAVE NEVER SAID I DID KNOW.
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@Stephen
I am always quoting the quran. I quote many Islamic academics
How is quoting the Quran the same as quoting Islamic academics? If I am wrong which one are you doing more?
They are my words. I won't tell you how to write or what to write so afford me the same fkn courtesy.
So you don't care about your work being misrepresented or lose what you had in mind when using generalisations like Muslims did this and that?
STAY OF MY THREADS AND DO NOT REPLY TO WHAT I WRITE ON ANY OTHER THREADS IN RESPONSE TO ANYONE ELSE.
Don't think you should be on the internet before fixing what is going on in your life. It does seem like you vent out your frustration on this site and show it with capital letters and swear words.
I stick to what the quran states too, but apologists for islam like yourself don't like that
When was the last time you used an Quranic verse in a forum post you have typed?
So tell me buffoon, has it been discovered yet who is responsible for the Sri Lankan attack on Christians at prayer on the holiest day of the Christian calendar? because I don't know and HAVE NEVER SAID I DID KNOW.
Who said I said that you knew?
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@blamonkey
So... if there are so many Muslims in the world and not every single one is trying to "kill the infidels" or whatever, then it can be assumed that the religion is not the only driving force for terror to be committed.
That's an opinion. I have covered this many times now. And I always answer this " not all muslims /most are peaceful" rhetoric the same way.
Just because those muslims who do want to kill any Westerner are only a "minority" it doesn't distract from the fact that the "minority" can cause millions of deaths. Not Germans were nazis,the majority were peaceful, but this didn't stop the "minority" causing the deaths of 60 million + men women and children with 16 million of those death happening in death camps. You see, the peaceful majority are irrelevant.
Muslims don't support the type of regime that kills them.
That is not just muslims, is it? No one supports a regime that wants to kill them, I wouldn't support any government that wanted to kill me. The thing is Christianity doesn't want to kill me because I criticize it and question it, I even and sometimes mock christians for believing what they do. . It is a that many "western muslims" prefer and want islamic sharia law these are facts, take your pick>. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=muslims+want+shariah+law+in+the+west
If all of them are terrorists driven by a terrible religion, then why are they condemning violence in support of an Islamic State?
Who exactly are they who condemning violence in support of an Islamic State"?
I agree thousands of muslims suffer at the hands of their so called muslim "brothers/sisters" but that would make that sectarian in my books. It is not international terror. I honestly don't care if Shi'ite and Sunni want to butcher each other. That is their affair.
On a related note, 9% of Americans, according to a recent poll, believe that it is acceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views...
Holding and having views and opinions is not terrorism on international scale as is Islam. Islam openly and clearly teaches violence and intolerance towards the non believer. Stop trying to ignore or to pretend it is not there written in the Islamic book , the hadith and the sunnah.
Intolerance. Quran 51- You, who havebelieved, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another.....
Violence. Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
There are over 100 verses in the same vein as the above throughout the quran. The quran teaches global jihad until "ALL religion is for allah".
Don't come back with the " nat all muslims" I have explained and covered that above already.
How is quoting the Quran the same as quoting Islamic academics? If I am wrong which one are you doing more?
You are wrong AGAIN!!!!!! Who said it was "the same". I didn't. Are you misquoting me deceitfully again? I said when I am discussing Islam, I do not only quote the quran but Islamic scholars and academics etc, what don't you understand about that simple sentence? . And it depends on the subject matter concerning Islam which one I would quote more. Stop asking me stupid questions.
So you don't care about your work being misrepresented or lose what you had in mind when using generalisations like Muslims did this and that?
Stop with your nonsense FFS! If I am "misrepresented" by the likes of you I will let you know and have let you know. Like when you tell blatant lies about me. Like this:
You say Muslims did this and that but don't say what should be done.
NO I HAVE FKN NOT YOU LIAR!!!!!!!!!!! .
Show this forum right now where i have said "muslims" had anything to do with the Sri Lankan attacks. You are just full of crap.
Let us all see your evidence where I have said "muslims did this". Come on, right now!!!
when using generalisations like Muslims did this and that?
lets have an example of "my generalisations". Come on! hurry up!
Don't think you should be on the internet before fixing what is going on in your life. It does seem like you vent out your frustration on this site and show it with capital letters and swear words.
Opinion. Listen buffon, I often use capitals not because I am "shouting", but because I fear the likes you have missed something I have already said a dozen time. This is the only reason I will use CAPITALS , BOLD or UNDERLINED . It sometimes works but many times it doesn't , it depends on the density of the reader.
Who said I said that you knew?
I do? You accused me of accusing muslims for the attack in Sri Lanka.
When was the last time you used an Quranic verse in a forum post you have typed?
Look above you buffon.Post 71
Why don't you target the verse? Simply having an anecdote by one scholar doesn't mean the particular group that did said thing did it because of that one scholar. You would require a testimony from the person in order to make that claim.I said when I am discussing Islam, I do not only quote the quran but Islamic scholars and academics etc
If I am "misrepresented" by the likes of you I will let you know and have let you know.
I didn't say me. I said in general.
Show this forum right now where i have said "muslims" had anything to do with the Sri Lankan attacks.
Where did I make that claim?
Let us all see your evidence where I have said "muslims did this". Come on, right now!!!
I already did but guess you didn't read it.
So what is this?
They just know how to integrated and appreciate the western country that has over 4 million muslims; don't they?
Not a gross generalisation?
it depends on the density of the reader.
If I am so "dense". Why isn't everything you say to me bold and underlined as well?
You accused me of accusing muslims for the attack in Sri Lanka.
When?
Look above you buffon.Post 71
Got my words mixed. As the opening of your forum topic.
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@Stephen
I don't know how long I am going to respond. Don't get me wrong, this conversation was riveting, but I see how easily this type of thread devolves into flame-war territory.
So... if there are so many Muslims in the world and not every single one is trying to "kill the infidels" or whatever, then it can be assumed that the religion is not the only driving force for terror to be committed.That's an opinion. I have covered this many times now. And I always answer this " not all muslims /most are peaceful" rhetoric the same way.Just because those muslims who do want to kill any Westerner are only a "minority" it doesn't distract from the fact that the "minority" can cause millions of deaths. Not Germans were nazis,the majority were peaceful, but this didn't stop the "minority" causing the deaths of 60 million + men women and children with 16 million of those death happening in death camps. You see, the peaceful majority are irrelevant.
Islam represents more than its minority. If you want to call out ISIS, then call out ISIS. The peaceful majority is perfectly relevant. If we are discussing Muslims, then there ought to be more than talk of its least representative members. Why should the other followers of Muslim be labelled with the same "terrorist" label because of their religion? Considering that most end up victims of these terrorist groups, (or in the case of the Rohingya, the entire government of Myanmar,) it seems weird to assume that they would be the ones supporting terror. I provided polls from Pew in support of this, and you provided a statistic suggesting that 7% of Muslims worldwide seemed to be fine with the attack in the US. Of course, this doesn't mean that they would go out and attack the US. More on this later.
Muslims don't support the type of regime that kills them.That is not just muslims, is it? No one supports a regime that wants to kill them, I wouldn't support any government that wanted to kill me. The thing is Christianity doesn't want to kill me because I criticize it and question it, I even and sometimes mock christians for believing what they do. . It is a that many "western muslims" prefer and want islamic sharia law these are facts, take your pick>. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=muslims+want+shariah+law+in+the+west
I am going to politely decline watching the rest of the videos if it's all the same to you. Most are interviews with a few Muslims who aren't representative of the whole. If you have more polls to cite, that would be wonderful. I just don't see the merit in digging for data for you. I don't know how many Muslims you interacted with. I will say that the few I interacted with didn't mind the fact that I was completely apathetic toward all religious institutions.
If all of them are terrorists driven by a terrible religion, then why are they condemning violence in support of an Islamic State?Who exactly are they who condemning violence in support of an Islamic State"?I agree thousands of muslims suffer at the hands of their so called muslim "brothers/sisters" but that would make that sectarian in my books. It is not international terror. I honestly don't care if Shi'ite and Sunni want to butcher each other. That is their affair.
The "who" you are looking for happens to be Muslims who don't feel like butchering people for different viewpoints. Also, considering the fact that ISIS would kill so many of their own religious sect in favor of their fever-dream version of it, wouldn't it be easy to assume that at least a portion of their goal is merely political? Yeah, they want to establish an "Islamic State." They mainly want to do so because the Assad regime punishes political dissidents and cares little for its own population. This, of course, doesn't justify their behavior. It does suggest other motives besides religious ones.
On a related note, 9% of Americans, according to a recent poll, believe that it is acceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views...Holding and having views and opinions is not terrorism on international scale as is Islam. Islam openly and clearly teaches violence and intolerance towards the non believer. Stop trying to ignore or to pretend it is not there written in the Islamic book , the hadith and the sunnah.Intolerance. Quran 51- You, who havebelieved, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another.....Violence. Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.There are over 100 verses in the same vein as the above throughout the quran. The quran teaches global jihad until "ALL religion is for allah".Don't come back with the " nat all muslims" I have explained and covered that above already.
Actually, the evidence you provided only discussed about 7% of the population believe that the 9/11 attack was "perfectly justified." This is an opinion or view. It is not terrorism, unless you are suggesting that 7% of the world participated in the attacks. Also, if you read just a line further, the authors stress that the numbers should not be considered definitive.
"Esposito and Mogahed explain that the labels should not be taken as being perfectly definitive. Because there may be individuals who would generally not be considered radical, although they believe the attacks were justified, or vice versa"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence#Statistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence#Statistics
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@blamonkey
Islam represents more than its minority.
Yes I know. Islam represents anyone calling themselves muslim, does it not?
Why should the other followers of Muslim be labelled with the same "terrorist" label because of their religion? be labelled with the same "terrorist" label because of their religion?
I am not sure what you mean by - " should the other followers of Muslim"_ . but if you mean "all followers of islam" then I have already covered this in my earlier response. I do not believe anyone with an ounce of common sense is stupid enough to tar "all muslims" with the same brush. It is a ridiculous suggestion. Why are you making this circular? I have said, it only takes a few (the minority) to completely change the course of history. it took only a few planes and a few muslims to do just that, I don't believe the world is the same place since 9/11
This, of course, doesn't justify their behavior. It does suggest other motives besides religious ones.
maybe. But I can't agree, and the title " islamic State" gives this away and supports my argument. Not to mention the caption adorning the Islamic flag "“There is no god but Allah [God]. Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.” This will be the same Allah who tells his adherents:
Quran 3:56 - "Asto those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
So this threat to apostates is not just in the hear and now then, but in the here after, too, simply for the reason of not believing in him.
Quran 9:123 - You who have believed,fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.
if these verses mean nothing or something different to what they actually DO say, why do not the muslims of Islamic State, or Al Shabab,Taliban, Sipah Sahaba,Hizb ut-Tahrir or any of the 200+ islamic groups know, but the so called "moderate muslims" do know?
Condemnations of extremists from moderate Muslims is not a new thing .
Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is? Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the so called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
I don't know how long I am going to respond. Don't get me wrong, this conversation was riveting, but I see how easily this type of thread devolves into flame-war territory.
No problem.
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@Stephen
Eh. This is a better debate than it is a forum thread. Regardless, I will respond.
Islam represents more than its minority.Yes I know. Islam represents anyone calling themselves muslim, does it not?
Yes. You may disagree with what constitutes a true Muslim or Christian, but identifying with a particular religion makes you a part of it to some degree.
I am not sure what you mean by - " should the other followers of Muslim"_ . but if you mean "all followers of islam" then I have already covered this in my earlier response. I do not believe anyone with an ounce of common sense is stupid enough to tar "all muslims" with the same brush. It is a ridiculous suggestion. Why are you making this circular? I have said, it only takes a few (the minority) to completely change the course of history. it took only a few planes and a few muslims to do just that, I don't believe the world is the same place since 9/11
The OP:
"There religion vouches for this act of terrorism, and when they do it, they are not punished.
It is not the people, but it is the Religion's."
It blames the religion on terrorism. If that were true, every Muslim should be a terrorist. They are demonstrably not. Ergo, this logical thread doesn't make too much sense.
maybe. But I can't agree, and the title " islamic State" gives this away and supports my argument. Not to mention the caption adorning the Islamic flag "“There is no god but Allah [God]. Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.” This will be the same Allah who tells his adherents:Quran 3:56 - "Asto those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."So this threat to apostates is not just in the hear and now then, but in the here after, too, simply for the reason of not believing in him.Quran 9:123 - You who have believed,fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.if these verses mean nothing or something different to what they actually DO say, why do not the muslims of Islamic State, or Al Shabab,Taliban, Sipah Sahaba,Hizb ut-Tahrir or any of the 200+ islamic groups know, but the so called "moderate muslims" do know?
I can label anything with a name and obtuse religious justification. This isn't inherent to ISIS. Sure, they are more prominent in the world when compared to the KKK and other white supremacist groups, but in the US we are seeing a rising presence of people sympathetic to that worldview. Many join these racist causes as well, as illustrated by the numbers consistently showing a rise in white supremacist organizations (see my previous evidence from FactCheck.org.)
Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is? Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the so called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
I already gave you one:
"How about a Muslim that doesn't try to kill you because of your ideology?"
Given my Pew polls and the evidence that you provided me, it seems perfectly rational to suggest that there are plenty of these moderate Muslims in the world. I earlier gave you an article listing dozens of instances in which Muslims spoke out against extremism. Here is an open letter signed by moderate Muslims who don't take their religion too far (http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/).
A religion is made up of more than just a book. It is the people. Perhaps there are interpretations of the line which are peaceful. However, given the rudimentary understanding of Islam that many recruits have (see my Brookings evidence,) it seems obvious that the group cherry picked an emotionally-laden, fiery line to boost recruitment numbers.
Here are some other quotes from the Quran
"When you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other talk." (4:140)
"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)
"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)
http://www.muslim.org/islam/int-is7.htm
http://www.muslim.org/islam/int-is7.htm
Cherry picking is easy. Understanding a text as a whole is hard. So, groups that rely on people to be angry and vengeful in the name of religion will ignore these verses in favor of others. If you look at the Open Letter to Baghdad, which I also cited, it becomes obvious that ISIS violated integral parts of the Quran.
I don't think that suggesting that some people from a group are terrorists, but it seems that the OP, as well as some other people on this site, seem to condemn Muslims the same way they would condemn juggalos.
I don't think that suggesting that some people from a group are terrorists, but it seems that the OP, as well as some other people on this site, seem to condemn Muslims the same way they would condemn juggalos.
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@Snoopy
Only people who worship things believe you can worship any things.
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@Stephen
You claim that someone called Islam did it. Disingenuous to a fault.Show this forum right now where i have said "muslims" had anything to do with the Sri Lankan attacks.
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@blamonkey
but in the US we are seeing a rising presence of people sympathetic to that worldview. Many join these racist causes as well, as illustrated by the numbers consistently showing a rise in white supremacist organizations
I understand you probably have other things to do so answer the following in your own time.It ok by me.
What do you believe has caused this sympathy and why is it do you believe has caused many to join "racist" causes and the showing of a rise in white supremacist organizations ?
Maybe not but can you explain what a "moderate muslim" actually is?I already gave you one:"How about a Muslim that doesn't try to kill you because of your ideology?"
Not really an answer is it. This is simply the "not all muslims" repeated rhetoric, which I have covered twice now, And you didn't address the whole question. I also asked as part of that question ;
(1)
Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the so called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
Given my Pew polls and the evidence that you provided me, it seems perfectly rational to suggest that there are plenty of these moderate Muslims in the world.
There are but see my question in bold at (1) above.
Here is an open letter signed by moderate Muslims who don't take their religion too far (http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/).
Yes I read the 49 names of the signatories and a very impressive 'ordinary' & and moderate bunch of learned professionals muslims they are. Now listen to this learned preacher preaching to ordinary "moderate muslims" and look for the show of hands.
A religion is made up of more than just a book. It is the people.
Now you are getting closer to my argument. Yes, the people who actually follow the written instructions in that book.
"When you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other talk." (4:140)"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)
I very good reason to believe all those verses are either contradicted by other verses or have simply been abrogated by islamic law. I will definitely get back to you on that.Please remind me if it appears that I have forgotten to do so. But just pick of the those academically "cheery picked" verses in the letter: #8 on the list. Their translation is disingenuous to a fault and they know it. tell me what was islam "defending" when it invaded Europe and the Caucuses and the Indian Subcontinent, your academically learned moderate muslims, they don't explain that do they?
Cherry picking is easy. Understanding a text as a whole is hard.
Yes. I was wondering when that old favourite was going to enter the conversation. But you see there is no getting away from the fact that these fluffy "cherry picked" verses are there, in the same book that the extremist muslim also reads along with over 100 verses instruction muslims (plural) to "fight until all religion is for Allah". It is all very well that a bunch 49 signatories have signed a letter, but they don't explain what is meant by these violent instructions to kill the unbeliever and why the muslim extremist have got them so wrong doe it? The letter simply "cherry picks" verses that appear to the contrary.
I don't think that suggesting that some people from a group are terrorists, but it seems that the OP, as well as some other people on this site, seem to condemn Muslims the same way they would condemn juggalos.
" not all muslims", they don't.
This is a better debate than it is a forum thread.
Yes. Surprising what can be achieved when a conversation is let to run uninterrupted by cries of "racist bigot" or "islamophobia" and accusations of "hate speech" or "inciting hatred" and "creating fear".
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@Stephen
Why does this clown keep rambling about heretical muslims and someone called Islam?
Who is this character you call Islam.
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@Vader
Which religion is responsible for this murderous atrocity of innocent Christians at prayer on one of the Holiest days in the Christian calendar?Islam
So it appears that your initial verdict on who was responsible for these attacks were right on the money, SupaDudz. How ever did you come to such a conclusion so quick with so little to go on?
""‘This bloody day is our reward to you’: Islamic State claims responsibility for Sri Lanka massacre
Islamic State has officially claimed responsibility for the Easter Sunday bombings in Sri Lanka via its al-Amaq news agency"".
Terror organisation Islamic State has claimed responsibility for Sri Lankan attacks that have killed 321 people and injured over 500. Islamic State has claimed responsibility for the Easter Sunday church and hotel bombings in Sri Lanka that killed at least 321 people and wounded more than 500.
Sri Lanka bombings 2019: ISIS claims responsibility for attacks
I think we can safely take it then the suicide bombers were muslims who read exactly the same book and worship the same god as the so called "moderate muslims".
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@Stephen
Not all ISIS members are Muslims but ISIS members are Muslims.
The title should be 207 Killed In Sri Lanka. When further information is released then SupaDudz should have added that in as the people who were responsible for it. I don't see the point in being reactionaries when you can simply wait for official statements to take place in order to find out who done what.
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@TheRealNihilist
Not all ISIS members are Muslims but ISIS members are Muslims.
Read what you have wrote above very slowly, then go and hide behind your settee until the laughter has died down.
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@Stephen
Yeah mixed it up.Not all ISIS members are Muslims but ISIS members are Muslims.
Not all Muslims are ISIS members but ISIS members are Muslims.
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@Stephen
Like I said, the RELIGION and it's teachings are VIOLENT. Most, an in fact 80% are peaceful
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@Stephen
Who else would mass bomb 18 churches? No singular person could do so
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@Stephen
What do you believe has caused this sympathy and why is it do you believe has caused many to join "racist" causes and the showing of a rise in white supremacist organizations ?
No clue. Ask a social scientist. I would suggest that political polarization and fear are factors that contribute to boosted numbers for these groups.
Do, for instance ,your so called "moderate muslim" read the same Quran as the muslim extremist, or a different book altogether? Do extremist have the same god as the so called "moderate muslim"? Indeed, do the muslim extremist have a totally different ideology/ religion from the so called "moderate muslim"?
Muslims read the same Quran and associated Hadiths. The difference is that some people aren't committing violence. The moderate Muslim is likely to realize that ISIS violates the tenants of the Quran per evidence from the Letter to Baghdad.
The Westboro Baptist Church reads the same bible as others, and concluded that their contribution to God would be going to the funerals of veterans and disseminating some "interesting" theories about homosexuals. How did they reach this conclusion? Only in the minds of the brainwashed family resides the answer. It's the same with the KKK and associated white supremacist groups. Perhaps this is the same for ISIS.
Now you are getting closer to my argument. Yes, the people who actually follow the written instructions in that book.
Then do all Christians follow the bible to the exact verse? Nope. The bible condemns homosexuality if you literally interpret the Bible.Yet, 44% of Christians support gay marriage (https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/christians/christian/views-about-same-sex-marriage/). People, when reading these texts, tend to view it not as a rule-book on how to live every single day of your life, but as a book of philosophy and ideas that can enlighten people and lead them to have better lives. Also, if every Muslim declared "jihad" to eliminate the infidels, I guarantee you, they would have already killed us all.
Yes. I was wondering when that old favourite was going to enter the conversation...
Just like in any religion, there are contradictions within the text. I am not justifying the Quran. I am simply suggesting that Muslims, (people who identify as followers of the Quran), are not all terrorists or believe that they should kill others based off of their ideology. Since, as I mentioned before, a religion is made up of more than a dusty tome, it makes sense to suggest that the religion is not the only driving force of terrorism. The signatories don't need to reconcile their beliefs of non-violence with the Quran. It is assumed in society that we don't kill each-other.
As proof of religions generally having some verses that are less than savory, I offer these:
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again."
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
"Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head."
Go ask a Christian if they believe these rules are fair in a modern society. As a side-note, religious violence in the US is minimal compared to the rest of the world. However, Christian doctrine has been used to support atrocities overseas. In Uganda, the Christian majority nation enlists the Death Penalty for same-sex marriage, and nearly strengthened those laws with a 2009 law if it weren't for a technicality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Uganda) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Uganda). A similar situation is found in the American Samoa which was remarkably tolerant of homosexuals before the influence of Christian missionaries took hold. Sodomy laws in place charge people with jail time if they deviate from the sexual norm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Samoa#cite_note-6). I would list more, bit I am running out of character space.
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@Stephen
I very good reason to believe all those verses are either contradicted by other verses or have simply been abrogated by islamic law. ...their translation is disingenuous to a fault and they know it. tell me what was islam "defending" when it invaded Europe and the Caucuses and the Indian Subcontinent, your academically learned moderate muslims, they don't explain that do they?
And yours aren't? You have good reason to believe that they were erased? Why are they less valid than yours? You can read Arabic? Also, when did this atrocity happen, and was this from a representative group of Muslims? From my research this seems to have happened years ago. Is it justified to hold all Muslims accountable for what happened hundreds of years ago? Should we hold Buddhists accountable for the atrocities committed against the Rohingya? How about the Philippines for action taken against the Moro people? Also, yes. Verses tend to contradict one another. Its a thousand year old book, just like the Bible. People tend to have a double-standard when it comes to Islam. Additionally:
"We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely"
Plenty of other translations seems to validate this particular quote.
Yes. Surprising what can be achieved when a conversation is let to run uninterrupted by cries of "racist bigot" or "islamophobia" and accusations of "hate speech" or "inciting hatred" and "creating fear".
I said none of those things. I don't know what you are insinuating about my character, but it is not an accurate portrayal of a conversation I ever had in public.
The Bible and the Quran preach similar stuff. I prefer to think for myself.
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@blamonkey
What do you believe has caused this sympathy and why is it do you believe has caused many to join "racist" causes and the showing of a rise in white supremacist organizationsNo clue. Ask a social scientist.I would suggest that political polarization and fear are factors that contribute to boosted numbers for these groups.
"Not a clue"? That does surprises me. Seeing that you felt the need to mention "racists causes" and a "rise in white supremacy" . Interesting you mention the fear factor here. So do you think the cause of "rise in white supremacy" & racism may be down to a fear factor? What of, and who of? What and why are these "racist" fearing?
Muslims read the same Quran and associated Hadiths.
So that is ALL muslims, extremist and so called "moderate muslims" alike read exactly the same Quran, Hadith & Surah. We have to ask then which muslims among ALL of these muslims are reading the quran and interpreting it correctly. Do you know?
The difference is that some people aren't committing violence.
Yes, we have done the "not all muslims" a few times now and I will reply with the same answer; not all germans were Nazis.
The moderate Muslim is likely to realize that ISIS violates the tenants of the Quran per evidence from the Letter to Baghdad.
Yes 49 extremely well educated scholars from various fields of academia who don't actually explain anything but as you put it "cherry picked verses" from the same book that you admit that the muslim extremist also take the instructions from. Did you not take 4 minutes to watch the preacher in the video . Listen to this learned preacher preaching to ordinary self confessed "moderate muslims" and look for the show of hands? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpeMxf2ITig&t=5s
The Westboro Baptist Church reads the same bible as others, [......] It's the same with the KKK and associated white supremacist groups. Perhaps this is the same for ISIS.
No it isn't the same. Nowhere in the New Testament will you read instructions from the Christian god - The Christ instructing his followers to go out into the world and rape, maim or murder anyone who refuses to believe in him or refuses to submit to his ideology as does the god of Quran.
As proof of religions generally having some verses that are less than savory, I offer these:(1)“When a man sells his daughter as a slave,.......(2)"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman,.......(3)“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished .....(4)Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.......Go ask a Christian if they believe these rules are fair in a modern society.
All the above are absolutely disgraceful and all taken from the Ancient Hebrew text we know as the Old Testament. And I am sure Christians will say no.
Very well.
I am glad you finished that with "modern society".
So, (1) you have taken ancient rules and instructions from an ancient text that is at least 6,000 years old ,and attempted to contextualize them with Christianity today in the 21st century.."modern society" . It simply doesn't work.
(2) These verses are ancient Hebrew text that even Jews/Israelis won't recognise; that is to say, they adhere to in the 21st century.."modern society". No, there is no death for homosexuality, no stoning for adulterous women and women can even be Rabbis where once they were either at the back , in another room or as far out into the outer temple courtyard. Indeed the first woman Rabbi was Asenath Barzani 1590-1670. Yes Israel has certainly moved with the times and made itself a "modern society" in the 21st century
(3) As mentioned the Old Testament was scribed by Hebrew scribes for a 6,000 + year old Hebrew audience. Christians didn't come into existence until millenia after, that would be some 6,000+ years after this ancient OT script was written and are not followed by the 21st Christian in a "modern society".
(4) Islam on the other hand has not moved a single millimeter in over 1400 years and has absolutely no intention of changing and conforming to a 21st century "modern society" . Take for example the Muslim Sultan of Brunei Hassanal Bolkiah who has just only weeks ago confirmed his allegiance to Islamic shariah law and reaffirmed ancient Islamic dictates and called for "stronger islamic law"
"Brunei is enacting a strict new penal code that imposes death by stoning for adultery and gay sex, as well as amputations as punishment for theft, despite widespread criticism"https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/brunei-enacts-sharia-law-sultan-calls-stronger-islam-190403060932396.html
So here's back at you my friend:
Go ask a muslim if they believe these rules are fair in a modern society. ?
I am sure the answer will be a BIG YES! as proven by the show of hands in this 4 minute video I don't believe you have taken the time to watch, yet .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpeMxf2ITig&t=5s
As a side-note, religious violence in the US is minimal compared to the rest of the world.
I am glad you have recognised that fact. The rest of the world as you put it, is not the 21st century western world. As you have recognised. But still you attempt (as a side note of course) to conflate the "rest of the world" into your argument when you understand very clearly we are talking about Islam in the western 21st century "modern society" it was you who after all who brought "modern society" into the conversation, wasn't it.