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Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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#121
BrutalTruth
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@Mopac
A dictionary proves how a word is defined, nothing more. That's why argumentum ad dictionarium is a logical fallacy. You don't seem to grasp the concept of a fallacy, and how it invalidates an argument.
#122
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@BrutalTruth
Yeah, so when I say God, I am talking about The Ultimate Reality.

Which invalidates your argument.
#123
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am not insisting that you believe in something that cannot be observed or postulated.


I am saying that The Ultimate Reality as we Orthodox understand it is not contingent on observation or postulation. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception, that is what we understand.


So once again, are you saying that the universe is the ultimate reality?


#124
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@Mopac
Yeah, so when I say God, I am talking about The Ultimate Reality.

Which invalidates your argument.

I hate to burst your bubble there bro, but merely making claims doesn't invalidate anything at all. You have to do a bit more than make a statement, and use logically fallacious arguments in order to prove a point. Another concept you seem not to grasp.

As I've said countless times, you have never, and probably will never, prove your ridiculous claim. No one has any reason to believe you.
#125
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@BrutalTruth
I am not making a fallacious argument at all. I am not even making an argument.


You on the other hand are arguing with the dictionary, which speaks volumes.

Whatever argument you are trying to make is contingent on being the one who determines what words mean.

Forget 2000 years of Church tradition, you can't even accept what the best dictionary of American English says.


If you weren't so prideful, we might be able to have a good conversation. Instead you want to project your arrogance, which makes you look like a weakling who is a slave to his passions.












#126
BrutalTruth
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@Mopac
I am not making a fallacious argument at all. I am not even making an argument.

Definition of God courtesy merriam-webster...

"capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality"
For starters, that is an argument.

Secondly, your argument commits two logical fallacies, which are:

  1. Argumentum ad dictionarium (appeal to dictionary)
  2. Argument from false authority

Your argument attempts to prove the claim that God exists by showing that a dictionary says that the word "God" is synonymous with "the ultimate reality," and since "the ultimate reality" is something that has been proven to exist, that must mean God exists.

Let's start with the most obvious one: Argumentum ad dictionarium.


Description: Using a dictionary’s limited definition of a term as evidence that term cannot have another meaning, expanded meaning, or even conflicting meaning.  This is a fallacy because dictionaries don’t reason; they simply are a reflection of an abbreviated version of the current accepted usage of a term, as determined by argumentation and eventual acceptance.  In short, dictionaries tell you what a word meant, according to the authors, at the time of its writing, not what it meant before that time, after, or what it should mean.
Dictionary meanings are usually concise, and lack the depth found in an encyclopedia; therefore, terms found in dictionaries are often incomplete when it comes to helping people to gain a full understanding of the term.
As you can see, trying to prove that God exists by using a dictionary to define the word "God" is a fallacious argument.

Now let's take a look at Argument from false authority.


Description: Using an alleged authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument. As the audience, allowing an irrelevant authority to add credibility to the claim being made.
The author of a dictionary is not a credible authority on whether or not God exists, nor whether or not God is "the ultimate reality," or whether or not God is anything at all. Therefore, trying to prove God exists by using the author of a dictionary as a source is a fallacious argument.

You argument also commits argumentum ad verecundiam, but that's just overkill, so I don't feel a need to include it. I have just undeniably shown your entire argument for the existence of God to be utterly fallacious, and if an argument is fallacious, then it is invalid. I understand that I've wasted my time, because you don't care whether your argument is bullshit or not. You're not interested in being factually correct. That's one thing you have proven many, many times.

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#127
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
I am not insisting that you believe in something that cannot be observed or postulated.


I am saying that God as we Orthodox understand it is not contingent on observation or postulation.

Then you can accept that I don't believe in your God.

How about you admit that we disagree and just say I am wrong like a normal person instead of doing mental gymnastics to convince yourself that we actually agree, hmm?
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#128
Discipulus_Didicit
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@BrutalTruth
There is no need for you to subject yourself to this. Unlike me I am sure you have better things to do lol.

#129
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@Mopac
Forget 2000 years of Church tradition, you can't even accept what the best dictionary of American English says.
Yes just look how Mop's ultimate reality is reliant on reality, courtesy of  his holy dictionary.
Definition of ultimate reality

: something that is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality


#130
Mopac
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I don't believe we agree.

You keep reading things into my words that I am not saying, which leads me to believe that your intentions aren't pure.

But here is the question you are legitimately dodging, which I find funny because everytime I answer your questionss in a way you don't want me to you accuse me of dodging. 


Do you believe that the universe is the ultimate reality?

#131
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@BrutalTruth
I am not trying to use a dictionary to prove God exists, I am using a dictionary to show what it is I mean by the word "God". Obviously, you think this definition proves God exists, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with the dictionary.


Which invalidates your argument, and makes you guilty of fallacy misidentification.



#132
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@disgusted
Without a doubt, God is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality.

The Truth as it truly is without a doubt is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality.


#133
keithprosser
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@Mopac
John 18:38

"“What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again."

I know how he felt.

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#134
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
 Do you believe that the universe is the ultimate reality?

Unlike you I believe only one reality exists. Attaching the word 'ultimate' to it just because Mopac insists that I must do so would lower me to the same level as a young child that refers to their bicycle as a "turbo-speed rocket bike" or their water gun as a "super blaster rifle" because young children like to use exciting sounding words for mundane things. It would add nothing to anyones understanding about anyone else's positions or beliefs at all.

In case that isn't clear enough, the answer to your question is no.
#135
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@keithprosser
And so Jesus said in his sermon on the mount(Matthew 5, 6, and 7)..


"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."


Having the right information just isn't going to do it. I do know that seeing something differently can get one to take the subject matter more seriously. It wasn't until I came across information that contradicted what I thought I already knew that I decided to take the whole Christian thing seriously.

Until then, I was in the mud with all of you God deniers, making many of the same arguments, mocking in the same way, and taking it all as some big joke. What now? I see that I was very wrong.

And I am not here to make myself right or puff up myself. Quite the contrary, I have no delusions of vainglory. I am here to throw about seeds wildly, seeds I may never see grow into fruit bearing plants because I am on to the next thing.


There is a certain very real obstacle when it comes to internet evangelism that I think is really worth mentioning. In the real world, I can be a friend. I cannot be a friend here. Too much is lost in communication. Instead, my words are filtered through this lens of being a grumpy godbother. In the world, I am a servant. I can not be that here. I think it is really sad that this medium has become the social lives of people. It is another working of the enemy to drive people farther apart into their own little pocket realities while only superficially connecting people.


And so there will be a time I will be gone. I see the well is poisoned. The ground had been salted. I am not sure what can grow here. It is my hope that something does grow however, and that even one person is lead to salvation. Maybe. I don't know. God knows.
#136
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So you don't believe that this one reality is ultimately real?


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#137
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@Mopac
So you don't believe that this one reality is ultimately real?

I believe that reality is super-duper extra-special real.

Did adding the phrase "super-duper extra-special" help the conversation in any way whatsoever? Do you now have a better understanding of what I believe or why? No? How shocking!
#138
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You know, I am trying to help you understand something, but if you are going to make a mockery of this discussion, we don't have to waste our time with it. 

And one of those things th as t I am trying to help you understand is that you do in fact believe in the existence of ultimate reality. You believe there is one reality, that by definition is a believe in ultimate reality. That which is ultimately real. These other realities you are in denial of? They aren't ultimately real. You believe in the one ultimate reality.


And no, I am not saying at all that you believe the same thing I do. If you would cooperate, this will become more apparent. 

So would you say the universe is this one reality?




#139
BrutalTruth
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@Mopac
I am not trying to use a dictionary to prove God exists

Well, since you've never used anything else to try and prove your god exists, my original statement that you have never, and probably will never, prove that it exists, is true. That leads me to wonder why you attempted to deny it.

The rest of what you said is self defeating, so I see no need for response to it.
#140
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@Mopac
You know, I am trying to help you understand something, but if you are going to make a mockery of this discussion, we don't have to waste our time with it.

Are you stupid or something? We understand your ridiculous argument. We believe "the ultimate reality" exists. We simply aren't delusional enough to believe it's "God." We have no reason whatsoever to believe that "the ultimate reality" has anything at all to do with the existence of some "God," and since I've thoroughly defeated the only argument you've ever made for it(the dictionary argument, in case you forgot), you've given us none.

Can you go back home and eat your crayons in peace now?
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#141
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
So would you say the universe is this one reality?

This question is a bit unclear.

I'm not convinced that there is anything that exists outside the universe. Does that answer your question?
#142
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@Discipulus_Didicit
There is no need for you to subject yourself to this. Unlike me I am sure you have better things to do lol.
Don't worry. I just backed his argument into a corner. He's about to reveal his psychosis.

#143
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@BrutalTruth
The reason why the only thing you get from me is the dictionary has to do with the fact that you are arrogant and don't deserve anything else.


This is the easiest way to demonstrate that you are unreasonable.

Why?


You don't want to talk about the same thing as me.


So your fallacies are...

Invincible ignorance

Strawman
 
Fallacy misidentification 



Now go on and keep pounding your chest like a gorrilla. Maybe some child will find you impressive.



#144
Mopac
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Ok then, so I would tell you one of two things.


If you are saying that the universe is the one reality, you would be a pantheist. That means your conception of God is the universe.

If you are saying that the one reality is the universe and anything that is outside of it if there is such a thing, you would be a panentheist. That means that your conception of God is the universe and if there is anything outside the universe as well.


So you do believe in God, though you would not use those words. Neither do we have the same conception of God. 


Could you make sense of that for me please?






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#145
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
If you are saying that the universe is the one reality, you would be a pantheist. That means your conception of God is the universe.

Consider this:

Even you - you who applies the label of God and several other words to so many things that it is as if your most fervent desire is for these words to become irrelevant due to overuse - Even you said that you would not call the universe God. Therefore why should I - I who have respect for language and do not wish any words to be used frivolously for no good reason because I believe language should be used for the purpose of communication - Why should I call the universe God?

I already have a word for the universe. That word is this: universe.

Why should I do this?

Because Mopac told me to?

Laughable, and yet I am not laughing.
#146
BrutalTruth
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@Mopac
The reason why the only thing you get from me is the dictionary has to do with the fact that you are arrogant and don't deserve anything else.
Oh, so unless I'm a good boy, you refuse to prove your argument? lol that's hilarious.

Considering that I've read nearly every post you've ever made to this website, including all of your debates, and have never seen you use any other argument at all aside from the fallacious dictionary argument, you must think everyone on this website is arrogant and doesn't deserve anything else. You're so full of shit that I can smell you from behind a computer screen.

This is the easiest way to demonstrate that you are unreasonable.
So making yourself look incompetent by refusing to prove your ridiculous arguments is your idea of making me look unreasonable? Man you're full of jokes today, aren't you?

So your fallacies are...

Invincible ignorance
Prove that any of my arguments have committed argumentum ad ignorantiam.


Strawman
Prove that any of my arguments are irrelevant to the debate at hand(which is what a strawman argument is). 

Fallacy misidentification 
Prove that any of my arguments misidentified any of your arguments.

You love to regurgitate bullshit, but you've never cared to back any of it up with facts nor proof. That's why nobody on this site, neither theists nor atheists, take a single word you say seriously. You have managed to make every single person here laugh at you just as hard as I do. When you prove your ridiculous claims, you'll shut us up. Until then, it's just more comic relief for us.

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#147
Discipulus_Didicit
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Seven year old child: I believe that Santa is Christmas, that Santa has magic that comes from Christmas Spirit, that Santa wants to give us all presents, and that if we are really good then he will! Hey Mopac, do you believe in Christmas?

Mopac: Christmas? Uh yeah, that holiday that people celebrate. End of December for some, beginning of January for others.

7YO: Well guess what, buddy? YOU BELIEVE IN SANTA! GOTCHA NOW SUCKER!

M: Uh, what? No, I don't believe that days can be magic or... what was that other thing you just said? Oh, the -

7YO: No no no no don't worry about that other stuff. Just the part where I throw a truism at you, that's all I want you to focus on.

M: But that part about presents... I don't believe that any -

7YO: No no no no you're really making this more complicated than it has to be. If I am in apologetics mode then when I say 'Santa' I really just mean that as a synonym for 'Christmas'. You aren't going to deny that Christmas is real like all those dirty wicked evil Hannuka celebrators do, are you?

M: I seriously doubt anyone has ever told you that Christmas does not exist.

7YO: It's settled then. Congrats on believing in Santa.

M: But that's not how language works, little kid. You can't just redefine the word Santa just because you want to convince people that they believe in him. The word 'Santa' has an actual meaning to people that speak this language. The meaning behind this word is how people understand this word to work and if you arbitrarily use it differently you aren't contributing anything to the conversation about Santa at all!

7YO: Actually I have a dictionary to support this definition of Santa.

M: Dictionary definition? Did you hear a single thing I just said? Even if you do have a dictionary which could be read that way I am telling you that people use the word Santa a certain way, a way that you understand perfectly well, and if you try to prove some point by just focusing on one aspect of it (the association between Santa and Christmas) you are not helping anything. There is so much more baggage to go with the word Santa than just what a dictionary says because that is how language works. Language is not created by dictionaries. Language is a social construct.

7YO: Look dude, seriously. Belief in Christmas is belief in Santa. I don't care what the other several billion people who speak English think about Santa because that is just their opinion. If the only part about Santa that you believe is the Christmas part, you don't believe in the presents or coal or anything, then to you Christmas is Santa. I wouldn't say that, I would say Christmas is just one part of Santa, but if Christmas is the only part that you believe in then I INSIST that you call Christmas Santa.

Mopac: That is absurd! I already have a word for Christmas. I call it Christmas!

7YO: Well sure you can still call it that, just make sure you call it Santa too and don't forget that if anyone asks you whether you believe in Santa you have to say yes now!

M: But that... That is so stupid... There are SO MANY flaws in what you are trying to do here that I -

7YO: Okay bye now! I am off to convince more people that Santa exists so that I can get on Santa's nice list! Bye bye Mopac!

- Later that same day -

Mopac: I believe that God is ultimate reality, that God created the universe, that God loves us all, and that the Orthodox Christian church is God's favorite church. Hey you, do you believe in ultimate reality?

Innocent bystander: Ultimate reality? Uh, you mean that like, reality is real? Yeah sure. Reality is real.

M: Well guess what, buddy? YOU BELIEVE IN GOD! GOTCHA NOW SUCKER!

IB: Uh, what? No, I don't believe that the universe was created or... what was that other thing you just said? Oh, the -

M: No no no no don't worry about that other stuff. Just the part where I throw a truism at you, that's all I want you to focus on.

IB: But that part about the Orthodox Church... I don't believe that any church -

M: No no no no you're really making this more complicated than it has to be. If I am in apologetics mode then when I say 'God' I really just mean that as a synonym for 'reality'. You aren't going to deny that reality is real like all those dirty wicked evil nihilists do, are you?

IB: I seriously doubt anyone has ever told you that they don't believe reality is real.

M: It's settled then. Congrats on becoming a theist.

IB: But that's not how... You know what, nevermind. I don't actually care. Congratulations Mopac I believe in God. Just let me get back to what I was doing.

#148
Mopac
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@BrutalTruth
Needless to say, I feel pretty secure over here havong the dictionary on my side.


You have a non argument.

#149
disgusted
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@Mopac
Sasquatch has the dictionary on his side so you are both equally believable.
Sasquatch exists as much as your ultimate reality does.
#150
Mopac
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You know, just because it is news to you that this is always what the church has understood God to be doesn't mean that it is the arbitrary thing you are making it.


You are essentially making fun of me for telling you the truth.