Hey witchy why would atheists hate theists, I personally just pity them/you for being trapped in your delusions it's very sad.
Oldie but a goodie: Christian Heaven Question
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@Outplayz
But more likely intellect and an awareness of reality.
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@keithprosser
For me some things are no brainers. One, there is a God. Two life must have meaning. Three, justice must eventually occur. Four, if this does not occur during life - which obviously it does not, then it must occur after life. This implies - after life.I thought 'no brainer' meant something so obvious even sarah palin would get it.but I don't agree they are 'no brainers' - i think they are false!
Yes, keith but you will have noticed I started my sentence with "for me", so whether you agree or not is irrelevant from my point of view. The fact that you think they are false is just your opinion and is not based upon any objective evidence. As for Sarah Palin, is she still alive?
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@Tradesecret
Yes, keith but you will have noticed I started my sentence with "for me", so whether you agree or not is irrelevant from my point of view. The fact that you think they are false is just your opinion and is not based upon any objective evidence. As for Sarah Palin, is she still alive?
You will have noticed I started my sentence with 'I think', so whether you agree or not is irrelevant from my point of view. The fact that you think they are true is just your opinion and is not based upon any objective evidence. Sarah palin is michael palin in drag.
Except disagreement is not irrelevant - it's the raison d'etre of this sort of forum. Can you support, for example, 'justice must eventually occur' with an evidence-based argument, or is it the brainless assertion you claimed it to be?
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@ludofl3x
For me some things are no brainers. One, there is a God. Two life must have meaning. Three, justice must eventually occur. Four, if this does not occur during life - which obviously it does not, then it must occur after life. This implies - after life. what will that look like is another matter - for me - the Christian position makes the most sense so far. That may be because I was born in the West. It is not because I was born into this idea though- my ideas of afterlife are significantly different from my culture and from the family I was born into.I think I agree: the only way to start with these assertions is by turning off the part of your brain that says "Wait, why is that a must?" If you axiomatically begin with "There is a god," not only have you not justified that position with a why, but you specifically skip steps and move it to there must be THIS god you believe in. I made a topic on this and I'm not sure you participated. Beyond that, WHY must life have meaning? You assert it, there must be a reason you do so beyond "because otherwise I'd be really uncomfortable." WHY must justice eventually occur? What if it doesn't? Who defines it? Why must it occur after life? And would eternal torture as punishment be commensurate justice for a sin like not believing in Jesus because you grew up in Laos or Burkina Faso?You don't demonstrate any reason to follow any of these 'no brainers', and I bet you don't display a lot of curiosity in doing so yourself. You are indeed not using your brain.
hi ludofl3x,
thanks for your comments as delightful as they were.
I have no reason to justify my position to you particularly. But I reject your assertion that I have to turn off any part of my brain or that I have not used my brain. Your presumption that an axiomatic position in relation to God leads to skipping steps is just an assertion which seems to be motivated by your clear rejection of my position based on prejudice not facts or evidence or reasoning. Axioms are necessary in life. Take reasoning in the first instance - it is an axiom that requires that reasoning is correct in the first place. Most people - if not all people necessarily skip over many parts in logical reasoning in order to get to their own starting points. I don't particularly care about this because most people don't think through most things. Everyone has axioms - it is impossible not to have one. Everyone starts with their own prejudices and tries to think from that point on.
I do presume that God exists - but so what? I have not seen any evidence presented to persuade me otherwise. It goes without saying - although it needs to be said for unthinking people - that for people to persuade others that God does not exist requires people to go to the axiom in order to refute it. Most people on this site use their own experience or their intuition or their own reasoning to try and refute God - this is a mistake. Why? Because everyone looks through their own rose coloured glasses to see the world. Unless you can look through their glasses and see what they see - they will simply take whatever you say and twist it to suit themselves. Look at you. I can present arguments which I consider to be quite objective - but you simply twist them because you have a different axiom. It really is that simple. Hence I don't try and persuade - I just plant seeds or stones or pebbles - I don't have to win battles - whereas others are always looking for the knockout blow. You see everytime someone responds to me - thinking they have a brilliant answer - I take it as a win. If you were to ignore me, then I might have to change my tactics.
I do say life must have a purpose. Otherwise life is meaningless. Which would mean that our conversations and the point of this entire site is really a waste of time. Afterall, if there is no purpose or meaning - then who cares what you think or what I think - we would all let others think whatever that is - and let people do it without recourse or reaction. I think meaning exists is a no brainer - and the fact that you respond or react to that gives substance to what I am saying. Now it is also true that meaning can exist whether God exists or not. Evolutionists of course do have an problem with this position - I accept their difficulty but that is their problem. They are the ones who have to justify why they give a care about what others think and why they feel the need to change other person's minds. They obviously cannot think in terms of right or wrong - but only in terms of their subjective position - and that is fine - but that is still purpose and meaning. Even if it only a very subjective individualistic one.
I think people have an innate sense of what justice is. I don't think this is an accident. This is why people get upset when they see injustice. It is why they think a movie is bad or a book is bad when it ends wrongly. Justice is part of the human psyche. But and is important - we don't always see justice played out in life. Often the bad guys win and the good guy loses. Now, for people who don't believe in God, they just have to accept this is life and that is all there is. It probably explains why they are so cynical, why they have no hope for humanity, and why they think life has no meaning. It probably also gives some weight to why they get upset with religion and with any person who is a half full type of guy. They hate optimism. They hate hope. although I reckon they secretly lap it up at every chance they might get.
For me - however, the bible clearly talks about justice - sometimes occurring throughout life - but definitely on judgment day. For me this makes sense. Our justice system, which is a system I work in everyday, has many holes in it. It is imperfect even though politicians are trying to make it perfect - which is one reason justice gets delayed more and more. But there are so many allusions to it that spring from eternal justice it is difficult to ignore. I say God defines justice and will bring it in his time.
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@ludofl3x
your last question asks the question - I think - is eternal torture commensurate with sin - even not believing in Jesus. The very question in my mind reveals an ignorance that is astonishing and startling. Obviously if Jesus is a made up person or is not God then it makes sense to sort of ask this question. Yet, on the other hand, it amazes me that you could be such an ignorant person, given you seem reasonable at other times. it is like you have just shut you eyes, your brain is switched off and you are pretending to be a fool. You obviously have never even come close to grasping who the God of the bible is. your question discloses that. no offence meant - but seriously.
We are talking about a God who is able to speak a word and the heavens come into existence. Think about that just for a moment. on a physical level, every star you see in the sky and every star you cant see comes into existence just because he utters a word. I am not asking you to believe this happened. But this is the God who is described in the Bible. If the Bible is true, this God has enormous power. Not just enormous power - but really enormous and mighty power. The bible - and again I am not asking you to believe it - but the bible describes this God as one who knows how many hairs are on your head. Think about this for a moment - how many hairs do you lose every day? Now multiply that by every person in the world. This is enormous. what I am trying to get you to consider is - the magnitude of God as he describes himself as.
Now picture for a moment - this God with all of this power and knowledge - for whatever reason purposes to make humanity. He did not need to - but decided to. He puts this humanity onto a beautiful world - and actually puts this human in charge of the world. He did not want to make humanity his slave. He made him co-regent. Now I don't know about you - but this is sort of like Michael Jordan asking me to play on his basketball team- but on a much grander scale.
and then you have the audacity to ask the question about whether not believing this God exists deserves some kind of eternal punishment.
don't get me wrong - but you don't believe in god now. And you do believe in death obviously. What is death from your point of view? It is eternal nothingness. You cease to exist - blackness. Can you imagine saying to Michael Jordan - who?
Do you think God has no pride? Why? Do you think that God is a walkover coward? Why?
God is holy. Do you even know what the word holy means? what would happen if matter and anti-matter met? why?
I am sorry - but your question is incomprehensible.
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@keithprosser
Why do you have to take the simplistic approach that anyone disagreeing with you is being mindless? You do realise that sometimes - and indeed very often - people of various views have positions that are not always mutually exclusive and of extreme position.
just because I disagree with you - does not automatically mean that I am being brainless.
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@Outplayz
It takes humility to become a monastic and to trust an elder to monitor you and help guide you. These monastics look more humble to me than the agnostic who rejects that anyone can know, and become their own defacto guide.
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@Outplayz
I would say try to understand what i mean before calling my fears "stupid." Bc from what you wrote, i can clearly see you don't understand what i mean and how i got to this conclusion. I didn't just wake up one day and say "heaven would be hell." Who would think of that? Also, i would be interested to see who else you've seen make this argument. From what i'm aware of, i'm really the only person that i know makes this argument. I'm sure there are others, i just haven't seen it in detail so it would be interesting if you know another so i can see their logic.
LOL!
That is a wonderful statement. Did I understand or not? and who else would I be able to show to you - given that obviously I don't understand - although - you are curious. liar. I understood - and refuted it. You don't like it. That is a different matter.
In regards to the only alternatives being hell or becoming worm food... i would encourage you to get a little more creative. Those are not the only alternatives by a long shot. There are spiritual platforms that would allow everyone to have their own paradise, etc.
Ok, then please inform me - I am also curious.
Also, i hate it when Christians tell me i can't understand something. Seriously, how do you know what i understand and what i've experienced? You can't. I have had out of body experiencing to which i have felt the feeling of becoming immortal or eternal... and it was not pleasant and is now one of my worst fears. Of course i can't just explain it to you and you'll get it... but, there are analogies i can use to help you understand it. Here is a movie analogy that illustrates what i mean, this can also be a music analogy but a movie is a little more like reality.
Blah blah blah - you do understand the concept of axiom, don't you? apparently not.
Imagine you have a favorite movie. This movie is the best movie you've ever seen and makes your hairs stand in how good it is. Now, imagine if i told you that you are only allowed to watch this one movie for the rest of your life. This could work right? Bc you will space it out and play video games instead, you will do other hobbies and watch it once a week, once a month, once a year. However, over the years... you will know every line, you will be able to imagine every face, etc. Also, it will likely stop making your hairs stand, and those other excitements you got the first time. But how long will it take for you to not find enjoyment in this movie anymore and just stop watching it all together? It may not even happen in this life time, but remember, you are eternal in heaven... how many years would it take? Now, this is a nicer version and not what i felt when i experienced it. Imagine now that your only entertainment in this life will be this movie. How long will it take for that movie, your favorite, to become torture? Again, it may never become torture in this life... but lets times that by infinite... I am quite confident it will become torture.
Do you remember that word I mentioned above "time". You are asking me to consider something in accordance with that word. Take time out of the picture . now imagine - in eternity - you watch that movie just once which goes for all of eternity - and every hair on your body stands up for eternity. and you enjoy it all at once always - plus an eternity of other things - that you want to experience all at once. A movie so good you never want it to end.
If you can imagine my analogy above, you will be able to understand why i am afraid of becoming eternal in any sense of the word. Not only do i understand the above analogy... i've felt it. That's why i find humanity to be so brilliant. That is why i think death is the most brilliant creation an infinite consciousness could create. And my suspicions seem to be correct since in this world death will always be there. Even if we become machines and populate the entire universe.. death will always be there. It's the off switch, it's the button that changes the movie. That's why i see it as something very beautiful and i'm glad i will one day die. For Christian's to tell me well guess what... you'll die and become infinite with god is literally my worst nightmare.
And this is where you don't understand Christians and eternity. It is not about repeating things. It is about a relationship. Heaven is not about enjoyment or even a loss of pain or anguish. It is about who I am with and whom I will spend it with.
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@Mopac
I don't know bc of everyone else... that is far from being my own guide. You have a problem of making things up just to sound like you have the moral high ground. Believe however you'd like... i do not believe religion, especially Abrahamic religions, are humble beliefs by any stretch of the imagination. Humble beliefs don't spawn death and destruction.It takes humility to become a monastic and to trust an elder to monitor you and help guide you. These monastics look more humble to me than the agnostic who rejects that anyone can know, and become their own defacto guide.
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@Tradesecret
Ok, then please inform me - I am also curious.
I was amicably asking you... your reply is of another self important delusional hate filled bigot that makes no sense... conversation over.
Blah blah blah
Projection.
Do you remember that word I mentioned above "time". You are asking me to consider something in accordance with that word. Take time out of the picture
You make no sense.
It is about who I am with and whom I will spend it with.
"me, me, me" None of this is about you. Your religion's paradise along with your religion don't make sense.
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@Outplayz
There is nothing about Orthodox Christianity that spawns death and destruction, and if you want to know what humility really looks like, it won't take too much reading of the lives of saints to find out.
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@keithprosser
How very fucking RUDE keith, you compare a brain damaged earthworm to a genius.Sarah palin is michael palin in drag.
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@Outplayz
Oh look who is finally showing their true nature. POS is too good to post here until he needs to vent.
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@disgusted
Because you bigot hate mongers. You need everyone to be like you or die. You're sick fucking pricks.
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@Tradesecret
your last question asks the question - I think - is eternal torture commensurate with sin - even not believing in Jesus. The very question in my mind reveals an ignorance that is astonishing and startling. Obviously if Jesus is a made up person or is not God then it makes sense to sort of ask this question. Yet, on the other hand, it amazes me that you could be such an ignorant person, given you seem reasonable at other times. it is like you have just shut you eyes, your brain is switched off and you are pretending to be a fool. You obviously have never even come close to grasping who the God of the bible is. your question discloses that. no offence meant - but seriously.
Can you get into heaven if you don't believe in Jesus? If you don't get into heaven, don't you end up in hell? I'm not sure what you think I'm so ignorant about. I am pretty sure I've got a good biblical grip on who the character god is in the bible, and he's not all lovey dovey and warm.
Now picture for a moment - this God with all of this power and knowledge - for whatever reason purposes to make humanity. He did not need to - but decided to. He puts this humanity onto a beautiful world - and actually puts this human in charge of the world. He did not want to make humanity his slave. He made him co-regent.
So let me see if I understand what you're saying. He didn't need to make humanity, but he eventually CHANGES HIS MIND about his creation and puts humans here. He doesn't want them to be his slaves, but he does get super duper mad, so mad that he drowns the lot of us eventually, and not only that, but also creates a place where we can be tortured forever if we displease him. I'm not sure that's what a CO REGENT is. With all his power and knowledge, there would be no reason to create this realm of punishment because that would mean he created something that was flawed by design. To borrow a phrase, we are born sick and commanded to be well otherwise you burn forever. What part of that is essentially incorrect?
and then you have the audacity to ask the question about whether not believing this God exists deserves some kind of eternal punishment.
Yeah, I have the audacity to ask. You don't have the audacity to answer. I'll ask another way: would an aborigine baby in the Australian wilderness, whose parents have their own gods, never heard of your god, if this baby is eaten by wolves, does the baby go to heaven? If yes, please demonstrate how CHristianity applies to this baby from the bible. The uncomfortable truth is that the bible says that this kid is doomed. Justice?
don't get me wrong - but you don't believe in god now. And you do believe in death obviously. What is death from your point of view? It is eternal nothingness. You cease to exist - blackness. Can you imagine saying to Michael Jordan - who?Do you think God has no pride? Why? Do you think that God is a walkover coward? Why?God is holy. Do you even know what the word holy means? what would happen if matter and anti-matter met? why?
Death from my point of view is the exact same thing as when a candle goes out. The flame doesn't GO anywhere. It's gone. The smoke rises for a while and then it's gone, too. And yeah, I can imagine saying to Michael Jordan "who" because that happens to everyone. How many baseball players don't know who Larry Doby is? Or Roberto Clemente? My son has no idea who Michael Jordan is. He knows the ones he can see play today. I'm not sure what your point is, except you think God is basically Super Michael Jordan? I'm kidding.
I don't know why god would need to have "pride." I'm proud of my accomplishments, but largely then ones I didn't think i could accomplish. If I knew for an incontrovertible fact that I could, as you say, speak into existence an entire universe, then pride becomes pointless. I can't impress myself and I have no equal to wow. But the bible definitely says he's a proud god. And jealous and wrathful. Why do you think god needs to have pride? I guess I also DO think the character's a coward, since his miracles have an inversely proportional relationship to the presence of scientific advancement and video. The character has quite a few shortcomings, certainly not worthy of worship.
What's the word holy mean? Why's that matter? What's the matter and anti matter question besides a non sequitor or a red herring?
MORE CHRISTIAN VOMIT.....all the fools arguing over Church Dogma and the truly retarded opinions these pathetic fools
post in the RELIGIOUS Forum....
Classic CHRISTIAN WARFARE....all these Parasite vampires can do is argue to be RIGHT when all of them are so WRONG
This is why the new generations are running away from FOOLS who label themselves CHRISTIAN....it is a word that is
synonymous with CONFLICT...no Christians agrees with other Christians !
What would JESUS do if he showed up ? he would instantly SPIT and CONDEMN every Christian CON ARTIST SCUM
that uses his name for self EGO gratification...that = 100%
100% of the Christians are LIARS...they use the JESUS hoax as a scapegoat tool for their own selfish agenda...and that
agenda is CONTROL...these are PARASITE VAMPIRES who devise clever Church CULTS rife with absurd Bible verse
VOMIT and CULT Dogma to OBEY...
The system of assimilation follows the same version as the Radical ISLAMIC terrorists...= systematic BRAINWASHING
accompanied by never ending THREATS....the main difference is most of the Christian VAMPIRISM is psychological
and economic oppression based...the Radical ISLAM terrorist uses extreme physical and mental VIOLENCE...
POINT ? the Middle East JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God garbage is all a human fabrication...the Middle East has had many
truly amazing civilizations...they have been reduced to horrifically OBSOLETE and DUMBED DOWN JEW-JESUS-ALLAH\
GOD brainwashing...the masses of hypnotized asses are at WAR....the JEWS are surrounded by enemies that want their
complete EXTERMINATION....the Christians are in the middle between the ALLAH God psychopaths and the fake JEW GOD
hoax followers....
RESULT = Death and destruction GUARANTEED...the JEWS play UMPIRE of a tennis match...JESUS Vampires against
ALLAH Vampires....a no win situation...this construct is deliberate it allows the JEWS neutrality...they do not openly assimilate
or invite people to convert....it is a closed group with its own GOD....not YOUR GOD retard.....
The masses of asses are left with 2 GOD options..ALLAH or JESUS...both GODS have dogma that demands others to convert
or DIE...both are at WAR against each other...both openly CONDEMN and ATTACK each other..both are nothing more than
a BRAINWASHING CONCENTRATION CAMP....for weak minded humans to be enslaved and serve the Church or Mosque
all in the name of their totally fake and fabricated Jesus or Allah God garbage....
Both have their own Comic Book Bible / Koran trash to drown in...
SOLUTION ? do to these Middle East Parasite Vampire JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God hoaxes as they have done to all the other
great civilizations and their GODS...relegated them to worthless...irrelevant...forget....
TIME is NOW to flush the TOILET with the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD garbage and forget they ever existed...
Imagine a world without the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD Psychopath Parasite VAMPIRES.....
This is what countless millions and the new generations KNOW..the Middle East GODS are TRASH...never to be followed
or worshipped like some retarded Comic Book character fantasy....DEAD these idiot GOD hoaxes are...
Until they actually SHOW UP they can all GO TO HELL.....one WAY DOWN....disgusting...how many humans have suffered
over this Middle East TRASH........
CELEBRATE ! ....the "END of DAYS" for the Middle East GOD garbage has arrived...
At least my true colors isn't being a coward.
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@Mopac
It most certainly has. Even if you say it was interpreted incorrectly, and i agree with you... there has been destruction and death on its behalf.There is nothing about Orthodox Christianity that spawns death and destruction
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@Outplayz
If "it" was interpreted incorrectly, it is not Orthodoxy by definition.
No, there is nothing about Orthodox Christianity that spawns death and destruction. Death and destruction is certainly spawned from somewhere else!
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@Mopac
No one has ever killed a person in the name of the most popular self help book. However, many have killed in the name of the Bible, Koran, etc. It doesn't matter if they are translating it correctly or not... it "spawns" death and destruction bc it is in my opinion flawed. You can have any other reason you want, but it doesn't change the fact that people kill in the name of a religion's text. If you deny people kill in the name of the Bible i would really question how far gone from reality you will go to protect this book.No, there is nothing about Orthodox Christianity that spawns death and destruction. Death and destruction is certainly spawned from somewhere else!
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@Outplayz
The Church is the rightful interpreter of the bible, which they compiled, and The Church does not teach to persecute, oppress, or kill anyone.
Reformation churches base their faiths off the bible, their own interpretations. They were never with us.
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@Mopac
I know that in the past you have claimed that the bible interprets itself, no I won't look it up you just have to accept that I'm telling the truth as you demand for yourself.The Church is the rightful interpreter of the bible,
So once again you have two contradictory claims, which one is true.
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@disgusted
The Church is the rightful interpreter of the bible.
You must be confusing me with someone who buys into the idea of, sola scriptura a purely protestant phenomena. Very naive too. What it really means is "The bible and my interpretation"
What does that lead to? Thousands of little "churches"(heresies) all claiming to be Christian with little to no connection to the historic church.
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@Mopac
They are both your claims.
1> the bible interprets itself.2> the Church is the rightful interpreter of the bible
Which claim is true?
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@disgusted
There surely instances when the bible clarifies what is written in it.
The Church is the rightful interpreter of scripture.
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@Mopac
So your claim that the bible interprets itself is in fact the lie and your other claim is the truth. Why then do you make both claims and then demand that people accept what you say is the truth?
Churches don't talk.
The bible doesn't say a thing.
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@disgusted
You are claiming that I made both claims.
I am making plain what I am claiming.
I don't demand people accept anything.