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@keithprosser
As you deny the existence of God, I wouldn't expect discernment to be your strongest point.
Oldie but a goodie: Christian Heaven Question
Posts
Total:
136
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@Stephen
Hey, aren't you that guy who ignores everyrhing that is said to them while pretending nobody ever tells you anything? I remember you.
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@Mopac
Hey, aren't you that guy who ignores everyrhing that is said to them while pretending nobody ever tells you anything? I remember you.
Bad memory then.
I am the guy who knows the New Testament scriptures better than you. And whose questions that you have always failed to answer. Aren't you the tard who has one default answer for everything? I remember you. You believe by simply repeatedly writing the words - truth & ultimate reality - over and over that everything is truth & real except me and anyone else who believes you only write complete and utter bollocks.
I can only guess that the truth - in reality - is as Ser Bronn of the Blackwater , says:
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@Stephen
Yes, you know the new testament even better than The Orthodox Church, the very ones who compiled The New Testament and wrote it.
No, you are. simply another haughty wannabe gnostic.
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@Mopac
Yes, you know the new testament even better than The Orthodox Church,
And you!
Tell me, where is the "heaven" that Jesus speaks about and what is it?
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@Stephen
So I can give you an answer and then you can pretend I didn't again as this is precedent? Prove me wrong, please, I would be delighted to be wrong about this.
Where heaven is and what heaven is are the same. The presence of God. To the godly this presence of God will be rapturous. To those who reject God, that same presence will be torment and shame.
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@Mopac
Not according to the scriptures, you clown.
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@Stephen
Falsehood melts away in the presence of The Truth.
How hellish it must be to stand in the presence of God while identifying with that which defiles you.
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@ludofl3x
Here's another paradox for you... where would someone like me go if i believe in Christianity? Hell is obviously hell... but so is heaven to me. I think wiping my mind, wiping my negative emotions / darkness, and living eternally is hell. I'm scared to death if that is what happens in the afterlife. If i believe in Christianity... it's either i go to an obvious hell, or a hell with a smile. So where do i go?
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@Outplayz
That is kind of the point. If you love darkness more than the light, you are going to hate the light. When the light comes, you are going to hate it.
And believe it or not, that is what is coming.
But you prefering the dark to the light is a sickness, and it really isn't until you are separated from these things do you later realize how worthless they are.
Someone told me yesterday how when they were growing up they loved videogames. He gave up videogames after getting married. After his wife died, he tried to go back to playing videogames, and he couldn't figure out how he ever liked them to begin with.
I have seen the same thing with people who used to do things they no longer can enjoy. It is like a dog returning to its own vomit.
It is really hard to convince someone whose life is centered around smoking crack that life is worth living without crack.
And so it is when we prefer darkness to the light. We are not truly in our right minds.
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@Mopac
You are so confused in your definitions that you wouldn't know evil if it stared you in the face. I love both good and bad... i hate evil. Evil is neither darkness or light... it the absence of almost everything. Therefore, there is nothing about evil i like other than it is necessary to get rid of evil, but that's about it. Everything else about light and darkness i love. I love how my anger fuels me, i love how my hate makes me better, i love learning how to love from my jealousy, i love how my envy makes me conquer any obstacle. Without these emotions i wouldn't be who i am bc i'm in almost absolute control of them... of course i can get better. But i would never want them erased... you kidding me. You're delusional if you think having only light emotions is heaven... at least for me. You do you if that's what you like. Go to your heaven... i have nothing against that, but don't expect me to think that's heaven bc to me it's not.
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@Mopac
God is omnipresent ergo everywhere is heaven including the last hang out of IS. You need to think if you are ever going to achieve the higher state of atheism. Regurgitating propaganda is fine and dandy for religion but not in the real worldWhere heaven is and what heaven is are the same. The presence of God
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@Outplayz
We have a technical word for what you are describing in Orthodoxy. It is called prelest.
And hell won't be more enjoyable than heaven, and it is either one or the other.
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@Mopac
Yes, it won't be.. by definition hell will be worse, but by definition heaven will eventually turn to hell. And that kind of slow mental torment might even be worse than physical pain. There is nothing you can say, other than change the definition of paradise, to make me not see it as an eventual hell. I don't care what "Orthodoxy" calls me... it's flawed humans trying to define me to which would make them feel good of themselves. I feel sorry for their weakness.And hell won't be more enjoyable than heaven, and it is either one or the other.
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@Outplayz
Yes, it won't be.. by definition hell will be worse, but by definition heaven will eventually turn to hell. And that kind of slow mental torment might even be worse than physical pain. There is nothing you can say, other than change the definition of paradise, to make me not see it as an eventual hell. I don't care what "Orthodoxy" calls me... it's flawed humans trying to define me to which would make them feel good of themselves. I feel sorry for their weakness.
I read this argument from time to time and I must admit it puzzles me. For the record, I think anyone who is not a Christian would find Heaven a kind of Hell anyway. But to suggest that eternality is an eventual Hell per se is kind of stupid. After all, when you are a child you think as a child, but when you are an adult you think as an adult. In human terms we exist in this thing called time. Time is for all intents and purposes linear.
But eternality is not limited by perceptions of time as understood by mere humans.
Christians however exist to worship God. He is our meaning - and our identity. I suspect that those who do not love Jesus would not last for more than 5 seconds in heaven because heaven is not about making your eternity comfortable. Hell may well be preferable - although i suspect that once you are there - you will wish you were not. Although whether you wish you were in Heaven is a different matter - unless it is simply an escape from the eternal torture of Hell.
The picture of paradise we see on our television screens when considering eternity or eternal bliss is I think pathetic. It is impossible to imagine eternality with our time ridden brains and imaginations. It is one reason why the Bible does not go into details about heaven. It would be like to trying to explain the colour purple to a blind person - or the sound of a songbird singing to a deaf person. Or the weekly paycheck to a little baby. The best it can do is say it is perfect - that it is a return to delight and splendour in the Garden, that is a place without sin and a place to worship God for ever. Now some of those things will appeal to some people and not to others.
I said in another topic - that I take the view that seeking heaven is a little platoistic. the biblical understanding of the afterlife is a restoration of heaven and earth as one - with Christ being the centre - where there is no sin. Will that satisfy me? Well not really. But at the moment I don't have a better alternative. Dying and being put into a hole in the ground to be eaten by worms or being cremated is even less satisfying - but even so - I bet you wont let go of it. so it seems a little disingenuous to suggest that other ideas are somehow less than perfect.
For me some things are no brainers. One, there is a God. Two life must have meaning. Three, justice must eventually occur. Four, if this does not occur during life - which obviously it does not, then it must occur after life. This implies - after life. what will that look like is another matter - for me - the Christian position makes the most sense so far. That may be because I was born in the West. It is not because I was born into this idea though- my ideas of afterlife are significantly different from my culture and from the family I was born into.
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@Outplayz
It has nothing to do with feeling good about oneself. You are truly deceived spiritually.
But if yourbpride won't allow you to accept that, I'm not going to convince you.
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@Mopac
Falsehood melts away in the presence of The Truth.
It does indeed. So are you saying the New Testament is full of lies ?
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@Stephen
That does not follow from what I said.
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@Tradesecret
I thought 'no brainer' meant something so obvious even sarah palin would get it.For me some things are no brainers. One, there is a God. Two life must have meaning. Three, justice must eventually occur. Four, if this does not occur during life - which obviously it does not, then it must occur after life. This implies - after life.
but I don't agree they are 'no brainers' - i think they are false!
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@Outplayz
Here's another paradox for you... where would someone like me go if i believe in Christianity? Hell is obviously hell... but so is heaven to me. I think wiping my mind, wiping my negative emotions / darkness, and living eternally is hell. I'm scared to death if that is what happens in the afterlife. If i believe in Christianity... it's either i go to an obvious hell, or a hell with a smile. So where do i go?
It's not really ANOTHER paradox, but I'm not really sure what 'someone like (you)' means. I know you've largely made up your own version of faith and supernatural and realms and levels, right? Then the answer is you go to hell where you'll be eternally tortured for your blasphemy and potential apostasy. It seems pretty straightforward to me in your case. You aren't a Christian, you go to hell. I'm not a Christian, I go to hell. The problem isn't with us. It's a problem for Christians.
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@Tradesecret
For me some things are no brainers. One, there is a God. Two life must have meaning. Three, justice must eventually occur. Four, if this does not occur during life - which obviously it does not, then it must occur after life. This implies - after life. what will that look like is another matter - for me - the Christian position makes the most sense so far. That may be because I was born in the West. It is not because I was born into this idea though- my ideas of afterlife are significantly different from my culture and from the family I was born into.
I think I agree: the only way to start with these assertions is by turning off the part of your brain that says "Wait, why is that a must?" If you axiomatically begin with "There is a god," not only have you not justified that position with a why, but you specifically skip steps and move it to there must be THIS god you believe in. I made a topic on this and I'm not sure you participated. Beyond that, WHY must life have meaning? You assert it, there must be a reason you do so beyond "because otherwise I'd be really uncomfortable." WHY must justice eventually occur? What if it doesn't? Who defines it? Why must it occur after life? And would eternal torture as punishment be commensurate justice for a sin like not believing in Jesus because you grew up in Laos or Burkina Faso?
You don't demonstrate any reason to follow any of these 'no brainers', and I bet you don't display a lot of curiosity in doing so yourself. You are indeed not using your brain.
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@ludofl3x
Surely outplyz ain't going nowhere?It's not really ANOTHER paradox, but I'm not really sure what 'someone like (you)' means. I know you've largely made up your own version of faith and supernatural and realms and levels, right? Then the answer is you go to hell where you'll be eternally tortured for your blasphemy and potential apostasy. It seems pretty straightforward to me in your case. You aren't a Christian, you go to hell. I'm not a Christian, I go to hell. The problem isn't with us. It's a problem for Christians.
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@keithprosser
It depends on the plane he gets on, apparently the big silver one will take him to ET's god worlds.
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@disgusted
It's hard to balance debating assuming god exists and assuming god doesn't exist!
I am not sure that every theist believes atheists think there is no god. Some of them must think we are 'dystheists' because they can't get their head around someone believing god does exist at all. you (especially) are constanly being accused of hating god. I don't know what the solution is.
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@keithprosser
Since atheists by definition do not believe any god exists of course when you say you are one that is your stance. Some of us are smart enough to know you hate theists. The rest are too stupid to catch on. They need to change that or they will pay for it later.
CHRISTIANITY....the LIE....the HOAX to cull stupid weak minded humans into slavery and servitude
of some Clown in a Glory Gown Costume that plays GOD !
It's TIME NOW to relegate the boy farce JESUS GOD invented by the ROMAN Catholic Church to check
into the MYTHOLOGY MOTEL...there the JESUS hoax GOD invention can join ZEUS-ODIN-APOLLO-
++++countless other GODS written off by the HUMANS that invented them...and relax by a pool to
share idiotic stories of the good old GLORY DAYS !
JESUS along with ALLAH and THE JEW GOD of MOSES hoax....must be relegated to the trash bin..
NOW is the 21st century....in going forward the JEW-JESUS=ALLAH GODS must be trashed....the
followers can all MURDER EACH OTHER and go to their absurd HEAVEN....why wait !
With the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God Parasite Vampires exterminated...the remaining humans will THRIVE
like never in human existence.....imagine how awesome EARTH would be without these JEW-JESUS-ALLAH
GOD psychopaths.....
A world without these disgusting CHURCH VAMPIRE STRUCTURES on every corner...no Mosque....
no Temple...all of that property can be put to GOOD USE...not keep some CONCENTRATION CAMP
going where innocent children are TORTURED into CULT DOGMA HYPNOSIS PSYCHOSIS...
Help RID EARTH of these Middle East PARASITE GOD hoaxes....
EASY....the Christian commits suicide...and goes to heaven while his/her HERETIC partner
is destined for HELL...for not converting....
This is why NOW more than ever it is TIME to RID earth of this middle East JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God garbage
Nothing but unrest...war...conflict...death ..and destruction come from these 3 total old man invented GOD hoaxes
...they are the stuff of a long gone horrifically IGNORANT-OPPRESSIVE-HYPNOTIZED tribal lunatics seeking some
kind of identity....so they STOLE from the other great civilizations of the region and made up this idiotic
JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God trick...
FLUSH these 3 utterly worthless fabricated Comic Book character GODS down the TOILET....they join Zeus and Odin
in Mythology....good riddance...
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@Mopac
I don't think an agnostic's problem is pride. Out of all spiritual beliefs... that is, in my opinion, the most humble answer to what a human could be sure of. Anyone that is sure one way or another of one specific platform has a problem with pride, ego, etc.
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@ludofl3x
It's not really ANOTHER paradox, but I'm not really sure what 'someone like (you)' means. I know you've largely made up your own version of faith and supernatural and realms and levels, right? Then the answer is you go to hell where you'll be eternally tortured for your blasphemy and potential apostasy. It seems pretty straightforward to me in your case. You aren't a Christian, you go to hell. I'm not a Christian, I go to hell. The problem isn't with us. It's a problem for Christians.
"Someone like me" means people that also think paradise as described by people (mainly the Abrahamic versions) would be hell. I'm not the only one that thinks that... i might be a little more extreme in saying it would be an eventual hell, but i'm sure there are others that believe that too. Which brings about the paradox of where we would go. And in this paradox, the only way you can answer it is to change how paradise is defined... which in turn, changes a lot of other parts of the religion. In any case, you are correct... i would go to hell, but to me the alternative is an eventual hell anyways. It may not be physical torture right away... but it will be an eventual mental torture that i think could be even worse. So why in the world would i actively believe in a religion that only offers me hell? I think it's an interesting paradox that i haven't had a good answer for... other than Christians that do change what most others describe as heaven... or, those that just say i don't know.
I haven't made up any platforms. I've been researching and/or interested in metaphysical subjects for a long time. In the end of the day, i'm agnostic. With that said, there are certain platforms i think are more logical than the rest... and interestingly, those platforms also have similar implications in regards to the afterlife. There is nothing i've made up except for what i would consider to be "paradise." I think by its nature, that will be subjective from person to person. And, there are spiritual platforms that allow everyone to have what they would consider to be their paradise. That is really what's most important to me. But do i know which platform is correct, no. Do i suspect a spiritual reality in general is possible, which basically means do we survive death, i think that's possible. Other than that, it really comes down to what will happen to "me." Just like this life, everyone's journey is different. I don't see why that would magically change in regards to some spiritual outcome/reality. I'm pretty sure it will be me having another journey... or, it won't be me at all... which some spiritual platforms also makes possible and of course just nothingness from a dead brain. I'm just pretty confident it won't be anything like the main religions describe.
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@Tradesecret
I would say try to understand what i mean before calling my fears "stupid." Bc from what you wrote, i can clearly see you don't understand what i mean and how i got to this conclusion. I didn't just wake up one day and say "heaven would be hell." Who would think of that? Also, i would be interested to see who else you've seen make this argument. From what i'm aware of, i'm really the only person that i know makes this argument. I'm sure there are others, i just haven't seen it in detail so it would be interesting if you know another so i can see their logic.
In regards to the only alternatives being hell or becoming worm food... i would encourage you to get a little more creative. Those are not the only alternatives by a long shot. There are spiritual platforms that would allow everyone to have their own paradise, etc.
Also, i hate it when Christians tell me i can't understand something. Seriously, how do you know what i understand and what i've experienced? You can't. I have had out of body experiencing to which i have felt the feeling of becoming immortal or eternal... and it was not pleasant and is now one of my worst fears. Of course i can't just explain it to you and you'll get it... but, there are analogies i can use to help you understand it. Here is a movie analogy that illustrates what i mean, this can also be a music analogy but a movie is a little more like reality.
Imagine you have a favorite movie. This movie is the best movie you've ever seen and makes your hairs stand in how good it is. Now, imagine if i told you that you are only allowed to watch this one movie for the rest of your life. This could work right? Bc you will space it out and play video games instead, you will do other hobbies and watch it once a week, once a month, once a year. However, over the years... you will know every line, you will be able to imagine every face, etc. Also, it will likely stop making your hairs stand, and those other excitements you got the first time. But how long will it take for you to not find enjoyment in this movie anymore and just stop watching it all together? It may not even happen in this life time, but remember, you are eternal in heaven... how many years would it take? Now, this is a nicer version and not what i felt when i experienced it. Imagine now that your only entertainment in this life will be this movie. How long will it take for that movie, your favorite, to become torture? Again, it may never become torture in this life... but lets times that by infinite... I am quite confident it will become torture.
If you can imagine my analogy above, you will be able to understand why i am afraid of becoming eternal in any sense of the word. Not only do i understand the above analogy... i've felt it. That's why i find humanity to be so brilliant. That is why i think death is the most brilliant creation an infinite consciousness could create. And my suspicions seem to be correct since in this world death will always be there. Even if we become machines and populate the entire universe.. death will always be there. It's the off switch, it's the button that changes the movie. That's why i see it as something very beautiful and i'm glad i will one day die. For Christian's to tell me well guess what... you'll die and become infinite with god is literally my worst nightmare.