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@Mopac
You are the proof of your nihilism.
Can't answer questions honestly so you lie. Poor thing.
Another classic: Intercessory Prayer and Efficacy
Posts
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204
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@Mopac
why not admit (reluctantly) that disgusted has a point and promise to get back to him? it's ok not to have everything at your fingertips.
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@keithprosser
No he can't because god sees him in hell and god is all knowing.'Ralph' does not know his fate. He can choose to be Christian at any time, as can you.
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@keithprosser
I don't need to admit anything of the sort.
Disgusted is not interested in understanding anything, he is a nihilist. After watching him for so long, you'd have to be blind not to notice.
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@disgusted
You are assuming god cannot know ahead of time what a person with true free-will will choose. Agreed that is impossible for humans but
"Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matt 19:26).
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@Mopac
Disgusted is not interested in understanding anything, he is a nihilist. After watching him for so long, you'd have to be blind not to notice.
Gus is always in 'Attack!' mode! But i'd be disappointed if you think that theodicy and the 'problem of evil' aren't valid topics for debate.
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@keithprosser
There is no problem of evil. The problem is in people who have a morality based off an arbitrary sense of aesthetics rather than purity of heart.
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@Mopac
Fortuntely there are orthodox websites that do understand issues you seem blind to.There is no problem of evil. The problem is in people who have a morality based off an arbitrary sense of aesthetics rather than purity of heart.
"God and we ourselves are still engaged in a massive cosmic struggle. The Cross and Resurrection ended Satan’s sovereignty over the world and over our individual destinies. Yet the struggle continues, just as sin continues"
"theodicy is particularly a problem for the Abrahamic monotheisms, all of which maintain that there is only one God and that this God is both
omnibenevolent and omnipotent. If these tenets are held to be so, theodicy becomes a particular difficulty"
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@keithprosser
I don't believe that you posting irrelevent and inappropriate "sources" gives legitimacy to your alleged problem of evil.
I see no problem. It isn't because I'm blind. It's because you are blind that you see the problem of evil. You don't know what evil is. If you did, you'd know that denying God is evil.
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@keithprosser
I am only using the teachings of Mop's religion, his god is all knowing. My argument has consistently allowed for his god to know the past, present and future simultaneously, ergo if god sees Fred in hell there is no chance that Fred will not be in hell because god sees him there. God sees Fred in hell before he creates Fred but goes ahead and creates him anyway, he creates Fred for the sole purpose of torturing him for eternity.You are assuming god cannot know ahead of time what a person with true free-will will choose. Agreed that is impossible for humans but"Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matt 19:26).
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@disgusted
he creates Fred for the sole purpose of torturing him for eternity
Perhaps God created Fred to give Ralph some company!
I tried my best to get a proper theist (ok, mopac) to engage but I've given up.
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@keithprosser
You aren't going to accept what the church teaches, so what then will you accept?
As far as I can see, you will only accept the denial of free will or the denial of God's omniscience.
And really, these are retroactive justifications for denying God, even though you claim to believe in The Ultimate Reality, which is God.
From the Epistle of James The Just, Brother of Jesus.
"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
It is better to choose The Truth, which is life than sin which is death.
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@keithprosser
Oh c'mon Keith, you've heard Mopac repeat "God is the Ultimate Reality" only a few thousand times, surely you want to read him post those words a few thousand times more, right?
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@Mopac
i'm not sure you get what gus accusing you of.
The argument is that omniscience and omnibenevolence are logical contradictory. it is not gus's idea - its been argued over for 2000 years! It's got nothing to do with any teaching; it's about the concepts of omniscience and omnibenevolence being incompatible. Think of it as trivial pedantry or a semantic quibble!
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@Goldtop
If mopac stops who's left?
I never thought i'd miss Ethang!
Ethang5 wrote: I live in Africa where I run Bibles to countries which outlaw the possession of Bibles. Been doing it for more than 15 years to many countries. I have 3 children.
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@keithprosser
The more you engage Mopac, the more chance you'll always remain alone here. Mopac is one of the reasons why this forum is empty, he dominates it and others with his insanity and repeating mantras. Anyone coming here to check out this forum will see this and run away because they will observe a severe lack of any intelligence.
It's primarily the fault of the admins who have yet to figure out how to run a forum and the fault of anyone who engages Mopac such that he keeps posting here.
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@Goldtop
You reak of insecurity.
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@keithprosser
I am familiar with the so called problem of evil. The Church fathers ironed this issue out before the heterodox revived the argument through their ignorance.
I am giving you the real answer, as I am Gus. You already know Gus won't accept any answer that doesn't involve total capitulation to his irrational and superstitious aversion to God. You don't have to be dragged down to his level.
On kind of an aside, I recommend the book of Job.
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@Mopac
You wreak of insanity.
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@Goldtop
It's a good thing for me that I am too crazy to notice.
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@Goldtop
@Mopac
@disgusted
Plantinga has petty good answer for disgusted.
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@ludofl3x
This is another one I always enjoy, though I admit it's largely a monotheist / Abrahamic question. If your version of god is all knowing, and has a plan, what would be the point of prayer? If, for example, you have a relative who gets diagnosed with an illness, would you pray for them to get better? It seems praying for god to do his will is pointless, he's going to do it anyway. If you're praying for the illness to cure, aren't you asking god to change his plan? If you don't expect him to change his plan, and he's going to either cure or not cure anyway, aren't you hoping the unchangeable god changes its mind? I guess I just don't understand how this is supposed to work. Of course if you think god can change his mind, or that he doesn't have a full plan< i get that praying would seem like a sensible idea, but otherwise I don't get it.I limit it to intercessory prayer, but if you like, some people think prayer is simply to praise his name. Why does god need or want people to do that?
Yes, God knows all things and will do what he wants. And if that was all there was to it, then prayer would probably be redundant. But that is not all there is to it. God is also our Father. We are his children. We have a relationship. This means talking to each other. And it also means listening to each other. My children often ask me for things which they know I would give them without asking me. They often ask me for things which they know I wont give them. Do I want my children to stop talking to me? Or asking me? I like to give abundantly when I can. Sometimes I could give, but I choose not too - for all sorts of reason - often because I want them to work it out themselves or because I want them to grow up a bit.
In the bible, God tells us to pray to him. He also tells us to ask him for things. There is a sense of comfort too when we do seek his advice - a knowledge that he knows that we have not forgotten to ask him. Prayer of course is the ultimate sense of dependency upon someone else.
Does God change his mind? That is a great question. I suppose we have to ask why would God change his mind? Would it be wrong for God to change his mind? After all, if he knows all things and he knows what is best, surely changing his mind would demonstrate / prove he either does not know everything, or that sometimes a better plan has to come into place? But is that true? Sometimes I change my mind, not because children have provided more information or because they have a better idea, but sometimes just so that they might know my plan was better. Sometimes it is because their plan is just as valid as mine and it really does not matter which plan takes place. Sometimes I just want to give them the sense that I have listened to them.
I don't believe that God learns new things. He knows all things. So if God changes his mind - which I think the bible talks about in certain circumstances - it is not because of new information or because humanity has proved him wrong. Sometimes it is in order for humanity to realise that God really is not as mean and horrible as they think. Consider the example of Abraham with the town of Sodom and Gomorra. It could be argued that Abraham negotiated God from destroying the city absolutely to not destroying it if there were 10 good people in it. Why did God allow this perceived negotiation? Whose benefit was it for? Was there any new information that arose for God to change his mind?
It could also be argued that God changed his mind when he threatened to destroy all of Israel to Moses after the Israelites decided to worship the golden calf. What changed his mind? Was it new information? Was it something else?
Prayer is in my view a demonstration of my utter dependence on God. He does listen. HE always answers. Often it is about changing me - and my perspective.
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@keithprosser
Nothing at all to do with my argument. My argument can be summed up as god's omniscience makes god evil.
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@Tradesecret
If your god knows all then he knows that he changed his mind and therefore did not change his mind at all. What he knows is what exists .
God: A rock will fall on that car
human: god don't let that rock fall on the car.
Result rock doesn't fall on car.
God knows all and therefore knows that rock doesn't fall on car, it was never going to otherwise god would not know all.
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@disgusted
What is your point?
That is in complete agreement with what I said wrote.
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@Tradesecret
Did your god know that the rock didn't fall on the car?
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@disgusted
How does omniscience make God evil? Omniscience is knowing all things that can be known. Of course we can argue that knowing means "intimacy" such as the Adam knew Eve and they had a child. This of course is the core meaning - not sex - but intimacy. God planned all things and brings all things to pass. This would include the freewill for people to commit heinous and evil acts. This is one of the reasons the church talks about first and second causes.
It is to clarify our position. We know nothing can occur without the foreknowledge and purpose of God. Sometimes we call this the hidden will of God. We also know that God is not responsible for sin. And we know that God has a revealed will - which we can read about in the bible which reveals his view on things he wishes for us to know.
We cannot understand his hidden will. We know his revealed will. We know that his hidden will always comes to pass. Yet, we are to comply with his revealed will.
Does this present problems for the church and Christianity? Absolutely. Does this make it wrong? Of course not. Does it make God evil? No. Just because God knows something evil is about to happen and could prevent it from happening but chooses not to, does not make God evil. How can we possibly know God's motivations for anything except what he has revealed? In any event, to say he could stop it from happening also in one sense denies that he is the one who brings all things to pass.
God could have created a world where everybody did not sin and did what was good. But he did not for his own reasons. (Actually he did create a world without sin and where everyone did what was good, yet man's first decision - was to do evil) I take the view that despite the fact that I cannot explain it - that his motivations were holy and in accordance with his own desires and interests. Given his obviously altogether higher wisdom and power than me - I am ok with this. There is little I could do about it anyway. Yet, I do not need to commence with the notion that somehow this makes him evil. I certainly don't have a higher opinion about myself than I need to.
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@disgusted
I don't know - why don't you ask him? Perhaps he might answer you - one who is so mighty and clever with your words.
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@Tradesecret
How does omniscience make God evil?
Now this is a hypothetical based on your claim that god KNOWS everything so don't go and get all confused.
[God knows that you (generic) are in hell, god knows this before he creates you, obviously the only reason for your creation is to torture you for eternity.]
That's EVIL