A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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#61
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@disgusted
I disagree. What would you expect from a living, thinking, rational, logical Being? 

You would expect to find life coming from life, as living beings producing other living beings is all you ever witness.
Therefore your imaginary god cannot be living, well said. From what living being did your god come?
How can an eternal Being come from anything? He always is, a necessary Being transcending time. Thus, life comes from the living! No contradiction there. 

You would expect to find reasons for the creation. You find laws of nature that are expressed by mathematical formula and principles that are DISCOVERED, not put there by us thinking it. 
Are you serious, I mean really?
Are you? You have a universe without meaning, intention, or purpose, and you cannot explain why it is here with any certainty because you don't have what is needed for certainty, yet you pontificate your silly ideas. 



The reason your mythical god created the universe is because he wanted to create the laws of the universe? Are you serious? I mean really serious? Your god indulges in meaningless tomfoolery? WOW. 
He had a purpose in creating the universe. Your worldview has no purpose for the universe, thus it is you who are engaged in the tomfoolery, for ultimately what does it matter, it's meaningless, and I do not take stock in anything you say since your bias and prejudice is asserted into everything you say - everything, IMO.  

I take very little stock of what you say as worthwhile. It is a philosophy of despair and despondency, IMO. I see you as offering nothing positive; you no compassion for the most helpless. You want to diminish and tear apart their lives, dispose of them at any cost on the whims of a woman's thumbs down, arena type decision.


#62
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Still has me blocked, but still responds to me. Ah, the stupidity. 
#63
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@PGA2.0
How can an eternal Being come from anything?
Because something can't come from nothing, that is one of the theists strongest assertions when it comes to opining on origins.

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@disgusted
I usually start with one of two arguments for God because I think they are most effective, the argument for morality and the argument for prophecy as a revelation from God. 
Your first argument is destroyed by all of the IPSS writings you worship.0-1
Assertion without a shred of proof for your position, as usual. This is Beginners Guide to Argumentation, 101. 

Your second argument loses all credibility by the prophesy and it's alleged fulfillment existing in a book filled with fiction and fantasy, a book of lies. 
Again, nothing but a contentious statement.

I would also argue that the proof for the Christian or biblical God is far and superior to any other worldview, including the atheistic or naturalistic one. 
It is a fact of life that gods are the creation of mankind, they never existed before mankind invented them.

With all but One. And here you are, placing yourself as "god" declaring what is and is not without any reasonable or logical demonstration that what you say can be trusted. 

#65
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@Goldtop
How can an eternal Being come from anything?
Because something can't come from nothing, that is one of the theists strongest assertions when it comes to opining on origins.

Logically speaking, explain to me how when you have nothing (not a thing, zero, zilch) something comes from this void of things. 

So, I have a good case that it is impossible. What you are speaking of is self-creation, something that has no EXISTENCE creating itself out of nothing. Please demonstrate this is possible and where do you witness it happening? 

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@Goldtop
Well, what I believe is not what you say I believe. If you don't believe me, what then? It seems only that you hate me without a cause.


#67
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@PGA2.0
How can an eternal Being come from anything? He always is, a necessary Being transcending time. Thus, life comes from the living! No contradiction there. 

Prove that the god created by IPSS is eternal, your entire life is built on the writings of the IPSS. Fancy relying on their ignorance and superstition.


Are you? You have a universe without meaning, intention, or purpose, and you cannot explain why it is here with any certainty because you don't have what is needed for certainty, yet you pontificate your silly ideas. 
We actually share the same universe but in your mind your universe is different because you have a man made god who created it for the sole purpose of creating the laws that govern it. How very sad.

He had a purpose in creating the universe.

How do you know?


Your worldview has no purpose for the universe, thus it is you who are engaged in the tomfoolery, for ultimately what does it matter, it's meaningless, and I do not take stock in anything you say since your bias and prejudice is asserted into everything you say - everything, IMO.  
And here it is your abject fear of death writ large. "I'm too important to just die, I deserve better, there must be something after this, I must have a purpose for evolving like everything else on this planet but I'm better than everything else. They die but I can't I'm important I deserve to live forever in paradise, I can't just die I can't." You don't take any stock in what I say because it's true and the truth is you will die like everything else that has evolved on this planet, you can't allow yourself to even approach that truth because it means that to this universe you are not special at all, you live and you die and you are once again unaware because you no longer exist. That scares the bejesus out of ya.

#68
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@PGA2.0
I disagree. What would you expect from a living, thinking, rational, logical Being? 

You would expect to find life coming from life, as living beings producing other living beings is all you ever witness.
Therefore your imaginary god cannot be living, well said. From what living being did your god come?

How can an eternal Being come from anything? He always is, a necessary Being transcending time. Thus, life comes from the living! No contradiction there. 

So your god can't be living given the definitions you gave above.


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#69
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@PGA2.0
What would you expect from a living, thinking, rational, logical Being? You would expect to find reasons for the creation. You find laws of nature that are expressed by mathematical formula and principles that are DISCOVERED, not put there by us thinking it. You would expect to find life coming from life, not from the non-living, as living beings producing other living beings is all you ever witness. You would expect morality to originate from a moral Being. That is just the drop in the bucket. 

If this were a rational, living, thinking, logical being that created the universe, you mean? I guess I'd expect to find evidence of any of the adjectives you've used. What's the "rationale" in the idea that eventually, and without question, the Andromeda galaxy will collide with ours is tens of millions of years and literally rip everything in BOTH galaxies to shreds? What's the "thinking" behind extinctions happening at a 99% rate for all species? What's the "living" bing you're describing doing creating giagnitc and insurmountable distances between us and our nearest neighbors? Or the logic is perhaps not having neighbors at all? The fact that all of these natural phenomena are present directly contradicts the description you provide. Wait, let me guess, we know not his holy purpose. EXCEPT YOU ARE SAYING YOU DO, and it's Earth. Why I'm even engaging you on science is questionable, maybe I'll quit it, because if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve, you clearly do not care about evidence or science or really anything that isn't what you already think. 

No, we don't put NATURAL LAWS in nature, yes, we derive them, but I'm pretty sure what I said we put there is meaning. Why, exactly, would I expect morality to originate from a moral being? And more to the point and the topic, why is that moral being the character in a book that's less than 2000 years old? You understand that your biblical prophesy argument also presumes the god of the bible is true, so before you get there (essentially a "this BOOK is true because") you should get to how you identified that before the book, the god in it existed as and behaved as described (I know God created the universe and it wasn't Cronos because...).

With all but One.
Bald faced special pleading. 

And here you are, placing yourself as "god" declaring what is and is not without any reasonable or logical demonstration that what you say can be trusted. 
Said the guy trying to say the reason god can exist without being created is because he's eternal or exists outside of space and time. If god can be eternal, can you demonstrate that the stuff that makes up the universe is NOT eternal? What's the logical demonstration you would use to show "this character in a book is real, and he somehow exists without the two things that are absolutely required for ANYTHING to exist: space (for something to occupy) and time (for the span of existence). It's all special pleading, special knowledge garbage. I wonder what you might have been like if you hadn't dedicated so much brainpower to undergirding some fairy tale for I don't know whose benefit. Yours, of course. 
#70
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@Mopac
The Ultimate Reality is God, and I challenge you to find anything else worthier of being callled God. You can't, there is nothing greater. No amount of sophistry or mental gymnastics is going to override what is truly reality.
This is not currently in dispute.
#71
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@disgusted
So your god can't be living given the definitions you gave above.
Excellent point.
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@keithprosser
I am sure I specifically stated Odin did not use thunderbolts.
I spilled my coffee...
#73
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@3RU7AL
It really shouldn't be.

#74
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@Mopac
Well, what I believe is not what you say I believe. If you don't believe me, what then?
You could try shoving a cucumber up your ass, then I might believe you.

It seems only that you hate me without a cause.
Don't be silly, I could think of a half dozen causes off the top of my head and a great deal more given some thought.

As usual, the sick, demented Christian who brings the hatred pretends to act the victim.
#75
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@disgusted
How can an eternal Being come from anything? He always is, a necessary Being transcending time. Thus, life comes from the living! No contradiction there. 

Prove that the god created by IPSS is eternal, your entire life is built on the writings of the IPSS. Fancy relying on their ignorance and superstition.
BS. My life is built on the credible testimony of the Bible with transcends the ANE and still applies in its message today; that is there is one way for a person to experience a right relationship with God and humanity without that relationship the person is answerable to God by their merit - what they do. 



Are you? You have a universe without meaning, intention, or purpose, and you cannot explain why it is here with any certainty because you don't have what is needed for certainty, yet you pontificate your silly ideas. 
We actually share the same universe but in your mind your universe is different because you have a man made god who created it for the sole purpose of creating the laws that govern it. How very sad.
It is your claim that the biblical God is made up, not mine. You choose to believe this so believe what you want. You are welcome to your belief. Death will be the determiner of whether you are right or wrong. 


He had a purpose in creating the universe. 

How do you know?
Because it is reasonable to believe based on the biblical revelation and what we see. It makes sense. It has corroborating evidence.



Your worldview has no purpose for the universe, thus it is you who are engaged in the tomfoolery, for ultimately what does it matter, it's meaningless, and I do not take stock in anything you say since your bias and prejudice is asserted into everything you say - everything, IMO.  
And here it is your abject fear of death writ large. "I'm too important to just die, I deserve better, there must be something after this, I must have a purpose for evolving like everything else on this planet but I'm better than everything else. They die but I can't I'm important I deserve to live forever in paradise, I can't just die I can't." You don't take any stock in what I say because it's true and the truth is you will die like everything else that has evolved on this planet, you can't allow yourself to even approach that truth because it means that to this universe you are not special at all, you live and you die and you are once again unaware because you no longer exist. That scares the bejesus out of ya.
Here again, you treat physical death as if it is the end of our existence - your choice. That is not the way I see life. I believe you have convinced yourself that all you have is here and now based on your limited knowledge and a specific worldview belief. Your belief system denies God. Thus, you are not open to God and afterlife. I think you feel it is in your best interest to deny God.

Romans 1 reveals that denying God leaves people unaccountable and available to practice a sinful lifestyle. After years of dialog with you, I realize you do not want to change your belief system because you, just like the persons described in Romans, want to do your own thing. 

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


#76
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@Goldtop
You told me to shove a vegetable up my bum, and you refuse to show me charity.

You also can think of several reasons to hate me.

I can't help but believe that you accusing me of bringing hatred is a projection of yourself.


#77
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@disgusted
I disagree. What would you expect from a living, thinking, rational, logical Being? 

You would expect to find life coming from life, as living beings producing other living beings is all you ever witness.
Therefore your imaginary god cannot be living, well said. From what living being did your god come?

How can an eternal Being come from anything? He always is, a necessary Being transcending time. Thus, life comes from the living! No contradiction there. 

So your god can't be living given the definitions you gave above.

The difference is in speaking about someone that has a beginning as opposed to Someone who does not. He is the necessary Being that all other beings derive their existence from. He is self-sustaining. We are not. 

Again, you FAILED to answer the question because you can't hear or understand what people are asking you. Your worldview stops you from understanding. Being eternal and the Creator then all life that begins comes from Him.

If you were eternal, how could you have a beginning? Answer that question.  


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#78
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@PGA2.0
If you were eternal, how could you have a beginning? Answer that question.  
Can you demonstrate that this being is eternal? Failing that, can you demonstrate that the universe in one form or another itself isn't eternal? No one says a word about god until about 5000 years ago. Up until then, he wasn't there, other gods were. 

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@ludofl3x

Can you demonstrate that this being is eternal? Failing that, can you demonstrate that the universe in one form or another itself isn't eternal? No one says a word about god until about 5000 years ago. Up until then, he wasn't there, other gods were. 


If the universe is eternal, then God of course would be eternal, because the universe does not precede existence. If the universe did in fact have a beginning, God is still eternal because existence precedes time.

Existence precedes conception of existence, so to say that God didn't exist before God was said to exist is a fallacy.




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#80
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@Mopac
You've already said you can't demonstrate the logic that gets from amorphous consciousness that no longer interacts with the universe it consciously created, to your orthodox version of the god of the bible. You didnt' SAY as much you've demonstrated it, I guess to be more precise. There's really no reason to hang around in this thread unless you've changed your mind or discovered some way to demonstrate it.

To clarify: even if I grant your insipid Ultimate Reality created the universe, at what point do you say "And this Ultimate Reality could be Thanos, it could be Zeus, it could be Allah, or it could be Jesus, but because of "                                                            " I know it's definitely the guy behind the orthodx stuff I like." What's the decision tree you follow? Hint: if it includes the bible, you're doing it wrong. As you point out, if god existed before the bible ever spoke about him, you should be able to demonstrate this WITHOUT THE BIBLE's help. 
#81
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@ludofl3x
I defined God as The Ultimate Reality. You are the one that defined God as "amorphous consciousness".


You,  a God denier do not get to define what we believe.

I could connect the dots for you, but historically those who wished to enter the church, Catechumans, would have to be educated over a period of sometimes 3 years. You won't even accept what I do tell you, and you want me to teach you anything? This is clearly foolishness.

You don't really want me to teach you Christianity, you want to dismiss what you think is Christianity. 


The God we believe in is The Ultimate Reality. That is what we acknowledge as God. 

If you don't believe that, I can't show you how it is the case.







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#82
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@Mopac
I defined God as The Ultimate Reality. You are the one that defined God as "amorphous consciousness".
No, I just said there was an amorphous consciousness that created the universe, and asked YOU to show me how you can get from there to bible god. 

I'm asking you to tell me why you believe what you believe. You're not able to, you just say "because," only with a lot more smoke and mirrors. You have not even attempted to do so, you simply say "This is what I believe." I say "I got that, what I'm trying to understand is why you think yours is right and someone else's is wrong." 

If you don't believe that, I can't show you how it is the case. 

Sometimes people say the quiet part out loud.

#83
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@Mopac
You never offer or show charity, so you deserve any. You do show hatred, intolerance and deceit to us when you call us names, and tell us we're nothing more than murderous scum and we should all fall to our knees in your presence, yet YOU claim to be the victim here.

So, this is all about your projection of hatred onto us, not the other way round, nitwit.
#84
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@Goldtop
I see you are giving me a fine example to follow. I shoukd strive to be more like you.

#85
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@ludofl3x
I don't know what you expect to get from me, but I don't appreciate you accusing me of being intentionally difficult. That is certainly not my intention. No smoke and mirrors. 


Do I really need to explain why I believe that The Ultimate Reality is God? Can you show me anything greater? Of course you can't. Isn't that reason enough?
But this is also what the church teaches, and everything about what the church teaches has to do with purifying the heart towards God, who is The Truth, and taking care of orphans, widows, and the destitute. 

So what can be said against any of this?

I can say atheism is wrong because it denies God, The Truth.
I can say Islam is wrong because the Koran expresses an ignorance of Christian theology, not recognizing the Jesus we believe and also claiming that we believe Mary is part of the trinity.
I can say Judaism is wrong because they rejected Jesus, and didn't get on board with The Church, which is truly Israel.
I can say every other church that calls itself Christian is wrong because they attempt to divide the body of Christ by deviating from the church founded by Jesus and The Apostles. They are not Orthodox. There is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.



And I can also say that there are bits and pieces of the truth in all the varying traditions of the world, but true religion in this day and age takes the form of Orthodox Catholic Christianity.

And if you want to talk in detail about any of this, please make it one thing at a time, I only have 15 minute breaks.









#86
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@Mopac
You continue to deceive, you have no intention of being like me or like anyone else here, you have stated you are here to educate us, you have called us all morons and idiots and murderous scum, we are not fit to lick your boot as far as you're concerned.

It is YOU who demands all of us to be just like you, and not more like you, but exactly like you; bat shit crazy.
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@ludofl3x
Thanks for your post. I appreciate someone who is a deep thinker. I will have to break it down since there is a lot to digest here. Each of your paragraphs can be greatly expanded upon.  
#88
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@Goldtop
If I have offended you, I am sorry.

Now lets put it all behind us and reason together.





#89
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@PGA2.0
BS. My life is built on the credible testimony of the Bible with transcends the ANE and still applies in its message today; that is there is one way for a person to experience a right relationship with God and humanity without that relationship the person is answerable to God by their merit - what they do. 
There is nothing credible written by the IPSS, in fact they lie regularly when they "quote" their god. You've been at great pains to tell me how the OT no longer applies so the above statement must be just another godist lie. To have a relationship with any god only requires the exercise of a persons imagination just like you do.
Because it is reasonable to believe based on the biblical revelation and what we see
So you don't know you just imagine it to be so, have you ever counted up the explanations you give because you imagine that is the answer?

Here again, you treat physical death as if it is the end of our existence - your choice. That is not the way I see life. I believe you have convinced yourself that all you have is here and now based on your limited knowledge and a specific worldview belief. Your belief system denies God. Thus, you are not open to God and afterlife. I think you feel it is in your best interest to deny God.

Death is the end, placing a meaningless descriptor before the word is the result of your abject fear of death, it's pathetic to see a grownup do that and it's not a choice it's inevitable. You are so afraid of death that you have almost convinced yourself that it won't happen to you, that is gargantuan fear. All gods are the creation of men, they don't exist for me to deny them. The hubris of someone who believes in an afterlife is unbelievable. Keep pretending.

Why do you continue to present the yabberings of the IPSS?
#90
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@PGA2.0
The difference is in speaking about someone that has a beginning as opposed to Someone who does not. He is the necessary Being that all other beings derive their existence from. He is self-sustaining. We are not. 
That distinction is never mentioned in your claims regarding life, your god does not fit any of definitions you give for living and yet you claim it is living.
Again, you FAILED to answer the question because you can't hear or understand what people are asking you. Your worldview stops you from understanding. Being eternal and the Creator then all life that begins comes from Him.
What question did I fail to answer? Prove your claim of a creator is factual and not just a figment of the IPSS imagination.
If you were eternal, how could you have a beginning? Answer that question.  
You have never seen life come from non life and from this you conclude that it cannot happen. You have never seen eternal life so to be consistent you must conclude that eternal life cannot exist.