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@keithprosser
The questions give me a framework... I'm giving it serious consideration. It's not a 5 minute job though!
Same with my reply to your seventy sevens question.
A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God
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1,007
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@keithprosser
Socialism, coming to a theatre near you!One of the most beautiful sights in nature! The point being it is produced by each bird obeying the same simple, fixed rule. The complexity that can arise from the simple is too rarely appreciated.
Kind of like the daily commute on the freeways of LA (exit right!).
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@3RU7AL
Your quoted undocumented immigrant felonies number is 300,000 out of an estimated 11,000,000 total undocumented immigrants.What percentage of 11,000,000 is 300,000?2.73% [LINK] - So, realistically, you're freaking out because of 2.73%? What about the other 97.27% that are non-murder-rapist-drug-dealers?About 8.6% of the adult population (of the United States) has a felony conviction. [LINK]By this measure it is 3.15018315018315% more fair to say that ALL UNITED STATES CITIZENS ARE VIOLENT CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So what do you suggest? Shall we let the violent criminals off like you propose we let the illegal immigrants off? How about we abolish all laws and have anarchy?
What about those who have been affected by these criminals? Their lives have been changed. Do you want to forget about their rights to justice?
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@3RU7AL
And everyone forgets that during WW2 the Unites States was begging Mexicans to cross the border to work in factories, and then, just a few years after the war, mass deportations began.Legally?My point is that "legally" is 100% arbitrary. It's not a "moral issue" like "murder" for example.
It is when people are murdered or killed or abused by illegal immigrants that would not have been affected if they had not come across your border.
There is nothing in either Leviticus or the Ten Commandments that says, "don't move to another country if your situation becomes desperate".
They built walls to protect themselves from those who would do them harm.
And don't you think that something like helping the Unites States win WW2 should perhaps be acknowledged and rewarded??????
What does that have to do with illegal immigration? They came into the States legally. What about the line of people wanting to come to your country legally that is denied because illegal immigrants take priority?
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@PGA2.0
@3RU7AL
If you live in texas, you welcome strangers from Oregon 1500 miles away and turn guns on strangers from Chihuahua 10 miles away.
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@3RU7AL
My responsibility is to know what is right and wrong.For yourself. Which would appear to be "the ten commandments", which doesn't mention immigrants or minorities or male homosexuals or terrorists.
Some things stem from those moral laws, like love for others, love for God; others are mentioned in both testaments as wrong before God.
If I meet a homosexual person I still recognize they are made in the image and likeness of God [although marred by the Fall]"Marred by the Fall" like literally everyone on planet earth.
True.
and deserve dignity and respect from me just like God has shown to me, but I do not see the sexual act between gay people as right per the biblical teaching.Do you have an opinion on each and every sexual act?
I haven't thought about everyone, to my knowledge.
Do you believe that married (hetero) couples who engage in certain types of (not strictly reproductive) sexual acts should also be banned from the church?
No, what they do in private is between them and God.
Repentant terrorists - I am all for second chances, just like I have been given one. That does not mean that a society should leave wrongful acts unpunished.Nobody is suggesting they should go "scott-free". The question is whether or not there is any path-to-redemption (have their day in court). The frightening thing is that it appears that we are now "stripping people of their birth-right citizenship" without due process, and with no path-to-redemption. I was always told that we were born with inalienable rights. If you can legally strip a person of all legal recourse and legal rights without even charging them with a crime, then I believe we have a very serious problem on our hands.
Yes, I believe in a path to redemption.
Who has been stripped of their birth-right citizenship?
Inalienable - the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Then what about the unborn? Do you grant them the same rights?
The problem is that we don't have the right to go anywhere we like without first receiving an invitation because when we do that we infringe upon the rights of others.
Do you have any "non-traditional" or "non-mainstream" beliefs? Well, just wait until someone who self-identifies as an "atheist" (for example) or someone from your group or "methodist" or "buddhist" or "gun owner" or "SUV owner" commits a heinous crime somewhere that makes it into the 6 o'clock news everywhere and then, BAM, "atheists" (or your group) will be capriciously stripped of their citizenship at will and nobody will even bat-an-eyelash.
My fight is not a physical fight but a spiritual one. I do not believe in taking a life or inflicting harm on others unless in self-defence.
Where would the justice be in that?Indeed.But it is not my job to dispense justice but to show the love of Christ to every person in treating them with love and respect, but also to act justly.That sounds reasonable.Now, I shamefully fall short of these qualities often. That is why I am so thankful for what Jesus has done for me - unmerited grace, something I do not deserve yet God mercifully gave!I know a lot of christians are very kind-hearted and friendly people. I just can't figure out why so many of them aren't.
Because they don't live the life they know they should. (inconsistent)
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@keithprosser
If you live in texas, you welcome strangers from Oregon 1500 miles away and turn guns on strangers from Chihuahua 10 miles away.
Those in Oregon come legally. Do you think you could cross over to Mexico illegally?
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@keithprosser
If you live in texas, you welcome strangers from Oregon 1500 miles away and turn guns on strangers from Chihuahua 10 miles away.
Good point. And I guess EU citizens that are able to travel to and from neighboring countries freely are now going to cause a continent wide crime spree like the world has never seen!
French can drive to Germany on a whim!
Italians can fly into London whenever they want!
Oh the horror!! Oh the humanity!!!
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@PGA2.0
Those in Oregon come legally. Do you think you could cross over to Mexico illegally?
Did the Spanish Conquistadors enter South America legally?
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@3RU7AL
Those in Oregon come legally. Do you think you could cross over to Mexico illegally?Did the Spanish Conquistadors enter South America legally?
They entered as conquistadors (conquerors) who take what is others and make it their own. They then establish their own laws and displace the previous laws of the land to suit their purposes.
Regarding just entering a city as you pleased, walled gates could also serve as a checkpoint against just anyone entering a city.
One of the earliest known references to paperwork that served in a role similar to that of a passport is found in the Hebrew Bible. Nehemiah 2:7–9, dating from approximately 450 BC, states that Nehemiah, an official serving King Artaxerxes I of Persia, asked permission to travel to Judea; the king granted leave and gave him a letter "to the governors beyond the river" requesting safe passage for him as he traveled through their lands.
Passports were an important part of the Chinese bureaucracy as early as the Western Han, if not in the Qin Dynasty. They required such details as age, height, and bodily features.[4] These passports (zhuan) determined a person's ability to move throughout imperial counties and through points of control. Even children needed passports, but those of one year or less who were in their mother's care might not have needed them.[4]
In the medieval Islamic Caliphate, a form of passport was the bara'a, a receipt for taxes paid. Only people who paid their zakah (for Muslims) or jizya (for dhimmis) taxes were permitted to travel to different regions of the Caliphate; thus, the bara'a receipt was a "traveler's basic passport."[5]
Etymological sources show that the term "passport" is from a medieval document that was required in order to pass through the gate (or "porte") of a city wall or to pass through a territory.[6][7] In medieval Europe, such documents were issued to foreign travelers by local authorities (as opposed to local citizens, as is the modern practice) and generally contained a list of towns and cities the document holder was permitted to enter or pass through. On the whole, documents were not required for travel to sea ports, which were considered open trading points, but documents were required to travel inland from sea ports.[8]
King Henry V of England is credited with having invented what some consider the first passport in the modern sense, as a means of helping his subjects prove who they were in foreign lands. The earliest reference to these documents is found in a 1414 Act of Parliament.[9][10] In 1540, granting travel documents in England became a role of the Privy Council of England, and it was around this time that the term "passport" was used. In 1794, issuing British passports became the job of the Office of the Secretary of State.[9] The 1548 Imperial Diet of Augsburg required the public to hold imperial documents for travel, at the risk of permanent exile.[11]
Passports were an important part of the Chinese bureaucracy as early as the Western Han, if not in the Qin Dynasty. They required such details as age, height, and bodily features.[4] These passports (zhuan) determined a person's ability to move throughout imperial counties and through points of control. Even children needed passports, but those of one year or less who were in their mother's care might not have needed them.[4]
In the medieval Islamic Caliphate, a form of passport was the bara'a, a receipt for taxes paid. Only people who paid their zakah (for Muslims) or jizya (for dhimmis) taxes were permitted to travel to different regions of the Caliphate; thus, the bara'a receipt was a "traveler's basic passport."[5]
Etymological sources show that the term "passport" is from a medieval document that was required in order to pass through the gate (or "porte") of a city wall or to pass through a territory.[6][7] In medieval Europe, such documents were issued to foreign travelers by local authorities (as opposed to local citizens, as is the modern practice) and generally contained a list of towns and cities the document holder was permitted to enter or pass through. On the whole, documents were not required for travel to sea ports, which were considered open trading points, but documents were required to travel inland from sea ports.[8]
King Henry V of England is credited with having invented what some consider the first passport in the modern sense, as a means of helping his subjects prove who they were in foreign lands. The earliest reference to these documents is found in a 1414 Act of Parliament.[9][10] In 1540, granting travel documents in England became a role of the Privy Council of England, and it was around this time that the term "passport" was used. In 1794, issuing British passports became the job of the Office of the Secretary of State.[9] The 1548 Imperial Diet of Augsburg required the public to hold imperial documents for travel, at the risk of permanent exile.[11]
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@keithprosser
Using the Ptolemaic dating system? What makes you think it is accurate?I didn't intend to imply there is any limit or constraint on what or how you present things. I'd just like to see the case laid out clearly so we all know the score.
I'm setting up a new thread for the purpose of presenting the evidence. It will probably take me a week or so to complete this. I will lay down to reasonable approaches to understanding the seventy sevens, one literal and the other based on an approximate timeline.
Do you think that you do not want to believe despite the evidence because you do not want to be accountable to God but want to do your own thing? Do you think that your own mind holds the keys to life and you will discover them unaided by God?Can we deal with that at later date?
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@PGA2.0
How many 3yr old drug dealers do you think should be killed per year?
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@PGA2.0
With socialism, the government forces me to do this.
With socialism, the government forces me to do what Jesus ordered me to do. Bastards.
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@disgusted
With socialism, the government forces me to do this.With socialism, the government forces me to do what Jesus ordered me to do. Bastards.
God knows that there is evil in this world and He allows us to defend against evil. We are to be a light against it, to shine our lights on it and expose it.
We, as Christians are to live by the law of the land, but we are to pray for justice and peace. The bringing in of billions of dollars of drugs into your country every year is a problem that needs to be addressed. The amount of money it cost that could be used for more productive means is denied by such ruthless lawlessness that used your southern border. We, as Christians, are not opposed to people coming into our countries for a better life, but we want it done lawfully, not ILLEGALLY.
Socialism is evil. It does not give equal rights, it gives big government the right (by a few) to determine what everyone else will do. The opposition is suppressed. Those who oppose big government are demonized. It wastes its money. It creates government programs that are useless. It suppresses incentives to get ahead. It kills wealth. It robs for the middle class and kills it. Everywhere it is allowed to fester it destroys. And those who do not recognize its evil fall into its traps and its propaganda.
We, as Christians are to live by the law of the land, but we are to pray for justice and peace. The bringing in of billions of dollars of drugs into your country every year is a problem that needs to be addressed. The amount of money it cost that could be used for more productive means is denied by such ruthless lawlessness that used your southern border. We, as Christians, are not opposed to people coming into our countries for a better life, but we want it done lawfully, not ILLEGALLY.
Socialism is evil. It does not give equal rights, it gives big government the right (by a few) to determine what everyone else will do. The opposition is suppressed. Those who oppose big government are demonized. It wastes its money. It creates government programs that are useless. It suppresses incentives to get ahead. It kills wealth. It robs for the middle class and kills it. Everywhere it is allowed to fester it destroys. And those who do not recognize its evil fall into its traps and its propaganda.
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@PGA2.0
You mean like the Socialist Scandinavian countries. Embrace your indoctrinated ignorance and oppress the poor in opposition to what your Jesus taught.
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@PGA2.0
The bringing in of billions of dollars of drugs into your country every year is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Demonizing immigrants and building a wall will do nothing to stop drug smugglers.
"Well over 95% of the drugs are moving on the water via container ships, non-commercial vessels, pleasure boats, sail boats, fishing boats. They also have fast boats which try to outrun our law enforcement assets."
"We've seen growing use of self-propelled semi-submersibles (SPSSs) - low-profile vessels made out of marine-grade plywood [and] fibreglass with commercial engines. The smugglers spend up to a $1m (£665,000) to build one of these SPSSs for what is often just a one-way voyage. [LINK]
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@PGA2.0
The opposition is suppressed. Those who oppose big government are demonized.
This is true under any conceivable system of law regardless of ideology.
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@3RU7AL
It seems to me that pga is criticising fascism.
Mussolini wrote: "Fascist conception is for the State; and it is for the individual in so far as he coincides with the State" and
"Fascism [is] the precise negation of that doctrine which formed the basis of the so-called Scientific or Marxian Socialism"
I think it is arguable that historically nominally 'socialist' regimes have degenerated into facism - as George Orwell brilliantly parodied in Animal Farm. That it is prone to mutating into facism may be the fatal flaw of socialism, but socialists are not facists. Indeed true socialists are soon suppressed as when power passes into the hands of dictators who pay lip-service to the letter of socialism while having disdain for its spirit.
But this is not the right forum for this debate!
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@keithprosser
I think it is arguable that historically nominally 'socialist' regimes have degenerated into facism
It's also funny that Rome was established as a republic and then degenerated into a dictatorship as well.
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@3RU7AL
Perhaps its human nature... or simply it's just that dictators are more 'driven' than regular folk.
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@disgusted
You mean like the Socialist Scandinavian countries.
Many would argue that those societies have declined since socialism, as I already pointed out. I would agree.
How does looking after the poor coincide with ILLEGAL immigration? These people are breaking the laws of the land. Many are smuggling in illegal drugs and people. Terrorists can negotiate a crossing into your country unhindered. The cost to your country is billions of dollars every year.Embrace your indoctrinated ignorance and oppress the poor in opposition to what your Jesus taught.
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@3RU7AL
The bringing in of billions of dollars of drugs into your country every year is a problem that needs to be addressed.Demonizing immigrants and building a wall will do nothing to stop drug smugglers.
I do not demonize immigrants. I argue that ILLEGAL immigration is wrong. Can you go into any country you like whenever you want? Can you smuggle in illegal drugs?
The number of resources used would be greatly reduced with a wall, as the border agents have stated. They should know. They deal with these problems every day. They, enlarge, support Trump and his border policy.
"Well over 95% of the drugs are moving on the water via container ships, non-commercial vessels, pleasure boats, sail boats, fishing boats. They also have fast boats which try to outrun our law enforcement assets."
They also come in through miles and miles of an unfenced and unguarded border. Not only this, traffickers and illegal immigrants use these fenceless areas to get into your country.
Then the question becomes how much are you paying for illegal immigration and how much would a wall plus other means save your country?
If you want to be a lighthouse for illegality then you pay for it. Don't expect those who see it as wrong (which it is) to flip the bill for you.
"Californians bear an enormous fiscal burden as a result of an illegal alien population estimated at almost 3 million residents. The annual expenditure of state and local tax dollars on services for that population is $25.3 billion. That total amounts to a yearly burden of about $2,370 for a household headed by a U.S. citizen.
Nearly half of those expenditures ($12.3 billion) result from the costs of K-12 education for the children of illegal aliens — both those illegally in the country and those born in the United States. Another major outlay ($2.1 billion) results from the need to provide supplemental English language instruction to Limited English Proficient students, many of whom are children of illegal aliens. Together, these educational costs are 57.1 percent of total expenditures.""We've seen growing use of self-propelled semi-submersibles (SPSSs) - low-profile vessels made out of marine-grade plywood [and] fibreglass with commercial engines. The smugglers spend up to a $1m (£665,000) to build one of these SPSSs for what is often just a one-way voyage. [LINK]
Illegal immigration has proven to be harmful to your country.
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@3RU7AL
The opposition is suppressed. Those who oppose big government are demonized.This is true under any conceivable system of law regardless of ideology.
At least they have their say. Under socialism, the practice has been to squash any opposition and deny freedom of speech. This is seen time and time again in these socialist countries. They use the media and educational systems masterfully, the same thing happening in your country now with the Democrats and you don't even recognize it. There is so much negative groupthink very few can think for themselves. I think Mark Levin's guest last night on Life, Liberty and Levin highlighted this very well. You guys are hoodwinked.
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@keithprosser
It seems to me that pga is criticising fascism.
Thanks for your input. Not only fascism but where socialism tends to lead. And the radical left in the Democrat Party is heading towards idiotic ideas.
Mussolini wrote: "Fascist conception is for the State; and it is for the individual in so far as he coincides with the State" and"Fascism [is] the precise negation of that doctrine which formed the basis of the so-called Scientific or Marxian Socialism"I think it is arguable that historically nominally 'socialist' regimes have degenerated into facism - as George Orwell brilliantly parodied in Animal Farm. That it is prone to mutating into facism may be the fatal flaw of socialism, but socialists are not facists. Indeed true socialists are soon suppressed as when power passes into the hands of dictators who pay lip-service to the letter of socialism while having disdain for its spirit.But this is not the right forum for this debate!
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@PGA2.0
The number of resources used would be greatly reduced with a wall, as the border agents have stated.
Citation please.
An unpatrolled, unmonitored wall is easily breached by either simple power tools and or chemicals and or common explosives.
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@PGA2.0
I take it you read the rest of my post? But perhaps we should stick to the OP. - religion has quite enough contention without bringing politics in!Not only fascism but where socialism tends to lead
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@PGA2.0
Illegal immigration has proven to be harmful to your country. [LINK]
This is pure fear-mongering, demonization, dehumanization, broad brush fallacy, and anecdotal evidence.
Your quoted undocumented immigrant felonies number is 300,000 out of an estimated 11,000,000 total undocumented immigrants.
What percentage of 11,000,000 is 300,000?
2.73% [LINK] - So, realistically, you're freaking out because of 2.73%? What about the other 97.27% that are non-murder-rapist-drug-dealers?
About 8.6% of the adult population (of the United States) has a felony conviction. [LINK]
By this measure it is 3.15018315018315 times more fair to say that ALL UNITED STATES CITIZENS ARE VIOLENT CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What about the other 97.27% that are non-murder-rapist-drug-dealers?
What about the other 97.27% that are non-murder-rapist-drug-dealers?
What about the other 97.27% that are non-murder-rapist-drug-dealers?
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@keithprosser
Eh, maybe, but isn't this where "the rubber meets the road" so to speak?religion has quite enough contention without bringing politics in!
We've established that DEISM =/= "YHWH" and now we've moved on to "YHWH" =/= conservative politics.
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@PGA2.0
If you live in texas, you welcome strangers from Oregon 1500 miles away and turn guns on strangers from Chihuahua 10 miles away.Those in Oregon come legally. Do you think you could cross over to Mexico illegally?
Not necessarily.
Visa overstays from Canada 93,035.
Visa overstays from Europe 123,729.
Visa overstays from Asia 56,674.
Combined total of 273,438. Start panicking now!!!!!!!!
Visa overstays from Mexico 42,114.
Visa overstays from South America 93,073.
Visa overstays from Central America 17,069.
Combined total of 152,256.
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@PGA2.0
You seem to equate wrong to God. How is it God's fault if the individual chooses?
On what auspicious date did you choose to be heterosexual?