Parables: The Way to Heaven

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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@Mopac
Okay, that description of the trinity is pretty much what I am familiar with. It definately comes across more clearly when you speak directly to me rather than through a proxy.

So, how confident are you that what you just described is accurate?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
As this is what I believe, I would say pretty confident.
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@Mopac
Would you be willing to put a number on it, perhaps from 1 to 10 or 1 to 100? It is not necessary that you do so, just curious.

But more importantly, my next question. Why do you believe what you have described to be true?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Oh, I wouldn't put a number on it.


I believe what I believe because it is really obvious to me that faith in The Truth is better in every conceivable way than faith in vain things. It seems obvious to me that The Truth is what makes one free, and that salvation is only in The Truth.

I look around me at the things that make life for the pagans, and I cannot say I envy them for putting their faith in lying vanities. It seems to me that this only leads to mental illness, dissatisfaction with living, slavery to the passions, the moral decay of society, and descent into tyranny as the love for many waxes cold and people become increasingly more self absorbed and detached from reality.

I look at the society around me, and I am very concerned. I do not envy the people who are caught up in this delusion. It is a road to hell. 


I have chosen The Truth because it is superior in every way.

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You're soooooooooooo lucky you picked the correct religious group to join.
Good game.
Good game.

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I believe what I believe because it is really obvious to me that faith in The Truth is better in every conceivable way than faith in vain things.

So you believe what you described because you think it is true and you wish to believe true things. That does not answer my question. I would like to know why it is that you think what you described in post 150 is true.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Fuck you, bigot. 
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I think witchy is mad cos she didn't.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
My faith isn't in true things, it is in The Truth itself.

There is a difference.

My God is The Truth itself. The God of Truth.


The Truth is the most perfect image of The Ultimate Reality. From my faith in The Truth, works manifest themself. 

I worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

This is how we as people relate to God, through The Trinity.



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@Mopac
Your opinion is lovely but you know what they say about opinions.
Good luck with that.
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This is how we as people relate to God, through The Trinity.

(1/2)


The only source I have to know what you believe, in other words to know what it is that you think is true, is the words which you type. Therefore if I wish to know in detail what you believe, in other words what you think to be true, regarding the trinity my best source is post 150 of this thread, for that is the post where you finally detailed in part what you believe.

So, in post 150 you detailed several things which you believe to be true. You said there "I believe God spoke the cosmos into existence, I believe that God exists in three persons we call the father, the son, and the holy spirit and we call this the trinity, and also these other things" and because you wrote these things in post 150 I believe that you surely think these things to be true.

So, if a person were to say "God spoke the cosmos into existence, God exists in three persons called the father, the son, and the holy spirit this is called the trinity, and also these other things" then you would surely say in your mind "This is true, and this person speaks the truth on this matter" and you would surely not say in your mind "this is false, and this person speaks falsely on this matter." and this is because you believe these things to be true, as detailed in post 150.

This person would then walk away.

Furthermore, we could speak to a different person, though not the same person that just walked away, and ask them to tell us one or more things that they believe to be true. This person could then say something like "I believe that the sky is blue." and after they said this I could say "The sky is blue" and this person would surely say in their mind "This is true, and Discipulus speaks the truth on this matter" and this person would surely not say in their mind "this is false, and Discipulus speaks falsely on this matter." and this is because this person believes the sky to be blue, as he detailed The first time I asked him.

Furthermore, I could wonder why this person thinks the sky is blue. If I did so I would probably first ask them "Why do you believe the sky is blue?" Then they might ask me what I mean in asking this, so I could ask precisely the same exact question in different words by asking "What is the reason that you believe the sky to be blue?" or I could ask "What causes you to think the sky is blue?" and his answer to all these questions would be the same or similar, for surely all of these questions are the same question but differently worded.


Also, as I am a simple and plain-speaking man, if I asked to this person "Why do you believe the sky is blue?" It could not be said that what I really mean is "I do not think your belief is accurate, how would you justify it to me?" After all, these two questions are different in the same way that the three questions previously compared were the same. Therefore because I am a simple and plain-speaking man, if I ask the first my intent is that the first is answered, and not the second. Furthermore, it is possible for me to ask this question even if I believe the other person to be correct.

So, if this person chose to answer my question rather than to walk away or to do some other thing, which they might do, there are many things they might say. They might say "I have seen the sky, and I have seen it to be blue." They may also say "I have seen pictures of the sky, and I have seen them to be blue, and I believe these pictures to be accurate."

Perhaps I think these reasons are sound, but that does not matter. Perhaps I think these reasons are unsound, but that too does not matter. Perhaps this person thinks their own reasons to be sound or unsound, but even this is irrelevant to this question. The only thing I am requesting from them is an honest description of the cause for which the effect is their belief.
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(2/2)

Therefore I ask to you, why do you believe these things that you describe in post 150 to be true? That God spoke the cosmos into existence, God exists in three persons called the father, the son, and the holy spirit this is called the trinity, and also these other things? I wish to know the reason that you believe these things.

And if I were to ask "Why do you think god exists?" Then this would be a different matter entirely, as your answer would be "My definition of God is that God is truth and I believe the truth." or some similar answer, in different words.

However, this is not my question. My question is "Why do you believe these things that you describe in post 150 to be true?" For surely you do believe these things unless you were lying when you said that you did, which I think is unlikely.

And surely it is obvious that saying that 'the definition of God is that god is truth' does not lead by necessity to the conclusion that God spoke the cosmos into existence, God exists in three persons called the father, the son, and the holy spirit this is called the trinity, and also those other things.

Surely then it must be obvious that if someone believes either of these to be the case then there must be some  factor which causes them to do so. Also, since the first does not lead by necessity to the there must be some additional factor or factors seperate from the first that causes a person which accepts both to accept the second, and surely it must be obvious that these additional factors are what I refer to when I ask the question "Why do you believe these things you have said regarding the trinity?", and that asking this question is precisely the same as asking you to expound upon what these additional factors are, but using slightly different wording.

So, if you choose to answer my question there are many things you might say. You might say "I believe the trinity description I have given is accurate because I have faith that it is so." You may also say "I have heard this description from a reliable source, and I think they were correct in saying this is the way it is." There are countless other possibilities for what you might say, and I do not know which you would say and I do not claim that you will or will not say one of these or any other thing. This is because I cannot read your mind. Furthermore, if I knew the answer to this question there would be no need for me to ask it. That is why I am asking you this question.

You should also know that just like with the Hindu who previously believed the sky to be blue (I did not mention they were a Hindu before because it was irrelevant, but I am mentioning it now although it is still irrelevant) that perhaps I will think the reasons you will give are sound, but that does not matter. Perhaps I will think these reasons are unsound, but that too does not matter. Perhaps you think your own reasons to be sound or unsound, but even this is irrelevant to this question. The only thing I am requesting from you is an honest description of the cause for which the effect is your belief in the accuracy of post 150.

Furthermore, it is the same with you as with the person that thought the sky was blue in another way. That is to say that as I am a simple and plain-speaking man, in asking you "Why do you believe that God spoke the cosmos into existence, God exists in three persons called the father, the son, and the holy spirit this is called the trinity, and also these other things?" It can not be said that what I really mean is "I do not think your belief is accurate, how would you justify it to me?" After all, these two questions are different, just as was said previously. Therefore because I am a simple and plain-speaking man, if I ask the first my intent is that the first is answered, and not the second. Furthermore, it is possible for me to ask this question even if I believe you to be correct.

Therefore, having said these things I will ask once again: Why do you believe the description of the trinity that you gave in post 150 is an accurate description of God, and not an innaccurate one? I wish to know the reason that this is what you think in your mind. To everything there is cause and effect. We see the effect where you believe post 150 to be an accurate description of god, so what then is the cause that matches up with this effect? That is my question.


Furthermore I will remind you once again that I am not asking "Why do you believe in god?" because this question is different from what I am asking, and it is not the same or similar, and it is something you have already answered.

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@Discipulus_Didicit
Realize that the answer to the question comes from properly understanding the concepts involved, and once understood it is really evident. 

So to even stay topical, a little parable!


Say you are presented with a map, but you have never seen a map before. You don't know what a map is. As that is the case, the map is fairly useless for you. However, if you knew the map in truth, you would know that it represents a territory. Having knowledge of the map, you can now use it to navigate the unfamiliar territory depicted on the map.


The Son is like the map

The Holy Spirit is like true knowledge of the map.

The Father is like the territory.

The Faith is like using the map with knowledge to navigate the territory.





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@Mopac
You still have not answered my question, and probably have not read all of posts 161 and 162.

I will rephrase my question yet again, the same question in different wording yet again:

How do you know that the map parable you just presented is accurate?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I actually did read all of the posts.

How do I know?

It is called epignosis. I have experiential knowledge. Revelation. 


It really isn't something that is easily transmitted.


Can you accept that we, being human beings, do not deal with The Ultimate Reality directly, but instead deal with representations of reality?

Our experience is constructed based on our senses taking away pieces of information from the whole. Our experience is largely a constructed one. But it does come from somewhere. It is a source. If we had the whole thing we would be omniscient. We are not omniscient. The fact that we learn things, make errors in judgement, guess wrong, sincerely believe we are right and then later find we are wrong are all evidences of this. To admit this is to admit sin. 

We are dealing with representations of reality, not reality itself.

And we are using the medium of creation, as we are created beings in creation, to express The Uncreated. It should be apparent that there is a certain absurdity in this.

And believe it or not, all this has a lot to do with why there is a Trinity, because God The Father is manifested in creation through The Son and The Holy Spirit.

And we know The Ultimate Reality through an image. The Word. The Word is God. When God is realized, it is by The Holy Spirit that shows how we know God through The Word.


I am doing my best to explain, but simply apprehending these things mentally is like looking at a shadow. 



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@Mopac
It is called epignosis. I have experiential knowledge. Revelation.
This may very well finally start to answer my 'question of why'... let us just be sure though, so as to avoid an incorrect assumption on my part leading to an incorrect conclusion.

Therefore, just to clarify... Are you saying here that you believe in the trinity and all the things detailed in post 150 and here as a result of experiential knowledge? If so, please clarify a bit on what you mean by that.

Can you accept that we, being human beings, do not deal with The Ultimate Reality directly, but instead deal with representations of reality?

Our experience is constructed based on our senses taking away pieces of information from the whole. Our experience is largely a constructed one. But it does come from somewhere. It is a source. If we had the whole thing we would be omniscient. We are not omniscient. The fact that we learn things, make errors in judgement, guess wrong, sincerely believe we are right and then later find we are wrong are all evidences of this. To admit this is to admit sin. 

We are dealing with representations of reality, not reality itself.
Simple enough concept... and sure, I could potentially agree with this with little fuss depending on the definitions used. I am not currently trying to figure out whether what you are saying is accurate though, I am first trying to discover why it is that you think it is accurate.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I suppose experiential knowledge would be the answer.

And really, I think once again it is worth noting that these mysteries of the faith are intended to be experienced. Mysteries to us are not things to be solved, but experienced.

To give an example, one of our sacred mysteries is the eucharist. You may know it as the lord's supper or communion in what is called Christianity in the west if you are familiar with it at all. Well, the word eucharist is Greek for "Thanksgiving". Thanksgiving is something to be lived and experienced, simply grasping it intellectually is not the same thing. 







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@Mopac
I suppose experiential knowledge would be the answer.

...

To give an example, one of our sacred mysteries is the Eucharist.
Okay, definitely answers my question. Thank you.

My interpretation of this is that you had or possibly continue to have an experience or a collection of experiences that led you to the conclusion. If this interpretation of your words is wrong please tell me so and provide a bit more detail so I can get it right.

This next question is relevant only if the above assumption is correct, naturally.

I would like to know whether this is your only reason for believing this particular description of god is accurate. What I mean is, hypothetically speaking, what if you never had that experience or experiences that you had but still had access to all the other information which you have gained throughout your life? would you still arrive at the same conclusion?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It was actually the culmination of all my experiences along with the grace of God that lead me to Orthodoxy. 

The Orthodox Church in America is kind of a hidden gem, it isn't really that big here.

But I am talking about God not god, and I know that no description of God can be exhaustive, and we even know that in our faith.

What I can tell you is that worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth is worshipping God through the trinity. That is what it means.






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@Mopac
It was actually the culmination of all my experiences along with the grace of God that lead me to Orthodoxy. 

If you did not have all the same experiences that you refer to here, would you still believe the same as you do now?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I don't know.

That would be a speculation into things that are not real.



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@Mopac
That would be a speculation into things that are not real.

Yes, obviously. That is why it is called a hypothetical.

Are you against hypothetical questions on principal?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
In general, I don't think coulda shoulda woulda postulations are useful.

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@Discipulus_Didicit
I think it is important to understand that behind the outward manifestations of the faith is something very simple.

It is Truth worship.
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@Mopac
We can leave it at these personal experiences being the basis of your conclusion and continue to the next step, then.

Would you be comfortable sharing a brief description of these experiences? If not, we can still continue but you would have to forgive me if I made an incorrect assumption or two on some minor details going forward.
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@Mopac
You have an icon you call truth.
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@Mopac
It is Truth worship.
We atheists seek truth and are suspicious of people who claim to already have it.


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@Discipulus_Didicit
I think that Truth worship stands on its own.

But really, it was Truth worship that ended up leading me to Orthodoxy, because this is the essence of the faith. It was nice to find the church that has been doing it for 2000 years. They have quite the library of material built up over that period.


And my experience is as personal as anyone's walk.
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@keithprosser
There are no "we atheists".

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@Mopac
I couldn't say 'You atheists', could I?