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@WisdomofAges
So why did you change your name? I liked 'vi_spex' better.
Parables: The Way to Heaven
Posts
Total:
437
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I do not think any 'ultimate reality' exists. I don't think there is any single entity or force with power over all of reality. I think reality is affected by numerous different forces, causes and effects, etc.
Without God, there are no forces, causes, and effects. These forces do not exist independently of God.
None of these things you mention would be there unless they existed, and if they exist God precedes them. All existence is preceded by God, The Eternally Existing One.
You do not think that The Ultimate Reality exists, but by saying so you are saying that nothing is ultimately real. That is nihilism.
And as for the rest of your post, there is nothing to address until we settle tgis matter, as I have repeatedly said. And the matter won't be settled until you are more sure of God's existence than even the existence of yourself. If you can't be that certain, YOU DON'T GET IT.
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@Mopac
Your claims carry no weight and all you have are claims.
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@disgusted
Nothing carries weight to a nihilist except personal whim.
And as for the rest of your post, there is nothing to address until we settle tgis matter, as I have repeatedly said. And the matter won't be settled until you are more sure of God's existence than even the existence of yourself. If you can't be that certain, YOU DON'T GET IT.
I think if somebody was telling you about (insert literally anything here) and you asked them to go into detail and describe (insert aforementioned anything here) because you wanted to decide whether you agreed with them on that then you would be justifiably unimpressed if they simply gave you a basic definition then said "I cannot go into any more detail until you state that you agree with me regarding this thing."
I will say it a fifth time, I fully accept your definition of God being "The supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality". Surely there is more about your belief that you could tell me if you so chose to do so beyond a few basic definitions. Saying that you are unable to say anymore until after I agree that everything you say is correct seems a bit absurd.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you don't believe The Ultimate Reality exists, you don't actually understand the concept.
So you say you accept the definition, but I don't believe you actually understand it properly.
That which is truly real. This is the proper way of understanding the concept. And surely, this is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality.
So if you are in doubt about this, we aren't going to get anywhere talking about these other things. I would rather address one superstition at a time.
If you don't believe The Ultimate Reality exists, you don't actually understand the concept.So you say you accept the definition, but I don't believe you actually understand it properly.
The fact that I disagree with one small part of what you believe automatically means I don't understand your point then? That seems a bit close-minded. Have you considered the possibility that I do understand this point and I am genuinely incorrect? That seems much more likely.
It is hard to say for sure which of those two possibilities are actually the case if you refuse to do anything more than give a basic definition unless I proclaim that I will agree with whatever you say before you say it.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I find it hard to believe that someone can honestly say That Which is Truly Real doesn't exist and understand what they are saying.
if you refuse to do anything more than give a basic definition unless I proclaim that I will agree with whatever you say before you say it.
I am doing no such thing, and I certainly am not going to respect any argument to the contrary. Until we are on the same page about what is meant by God, I am not going to waste my time talking about these other things.
And why should I when you are currently adopting a position that to my worldview is translated into "Nothing is real, the truth is a lie!". You must agree that I would be foolish to even try to reason with someone who adopts such an unreasonable position.
And of course, it is my hope that you aren't truly so depraved, but are simply uninformed about the subject matter. That is what I am here for, to educate. I would appreciate it if you gave me the benefit of the doubt about this.
I find it hard to believe that someone can honestly say That Which is Truly Real doesn't exist and understand what they are saying.
So god is reality too then? This is a divergence from what you have been saying up to this point. Up until now you have just said he is the ultimate reality. If he is both ultimate reality and reality then you should have said so before.
I already said dozens of times that I believe reality exists/is real. You know this. There is not a single sentence I have said that indicates otherwise. Not one.
I don't think that there is a single entity or force pulling all the strings but obviously I believe reality exists. I could be incorrect on either of those points but if you refuse to say anything more until I proffess to be "More sure of [The ultimate realities] existence than even the existence of [myself]" then I don't understand how you intend to show me that I am.
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@Mopac
You possess a nonexistent understanding of reality, everything is personal whim the Gods invented by man don't exist.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I have been very consistent that God is Reality as it Truly is in Actuality, and I have been very consistent about this because I know what I am talking about. You are talking about a god. I am talking about God. There is a difference.
I am not demanding that you accept what I say. I am saying that if you don't believe God exists, this is what needs to be discussed.
So how can you even entertain the idea that reality might not exist? The fact that you are having an experience at all demonstrates that there is some form of reality. I can't say it makes sense to question the existence of reality.
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@Mopac
So how can you even entertain the idea that reality might not exist? The fact that you are having an experience at all demonstrates that there is some form of reality. I can't say it makes sense to question the existence of reality.
I already said dozens of times that I believe reality exists/is real. You know this. There is not a single sentence I have said that indicates otherwise. Not one.
I don't think that there is a single entity or force pulling all the strings but obviously I believe reality exists. I could be incorrect on either of those points but if you refuse to say anything more until I proffess to be "More sure of [The ultimate realities] existence than even the existence of [myself]" then I don't understand how you intend to show me that I am.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I understand that you believe reality exists. However, you say you could be wrong about this.
I am saying there can be no reasonable room for doubt about this. Reality certainly exists. Can we agree on that?
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@Mopac
I am saying there can be no reasonable room for doubt about this. Reality certainly exists. Can we agree on that?
I am highly certain that reality exists. There is a large amount of evidence to support the conclusion that reality exists and none at all (that I am aware of) to say that it does not. That is why I believe reality is... real, for lack of a better term.
As I always have been with with everything else in my life I am willing to change my mind if new information comes to light which contradicts what I believe but as of yet there is no information that I am aware of to suggest that reality does not exist.
If you or anyone else says that they posses such evidence I would of course be willing to hear them out just like if anyone says they think I am wrong about anything else, but if nobody challenges that belief of mine or they do so and I find their reasoning flawed I will continue to believe that reality is real.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I understand that you are very sure about the existence of reality, but please, lets dwell on this for a bit.
Any evidence that could be presented to undermine the existence of reality would be self defeating.
"It is reality that there is no reality!"
Now in nearly every case, I would agree with you that it is good to be open to the possibility that one's views may be in error. However, this is one of those things that I would say it is not reasonable to have doubts about. Reality by necessity must exist. There is no sophistry that can undermine this.
Can you agree on this, or do you have any reasonable objections?
Can you agree on this, or do you have any reasonable objections?
Based on what I currently know yes of course I agree that there is no doubt that reality exists. That is why I never expressed any such doubt. I would currently rate my confidence level that reality is real at 100%, which is a position I very rarely take on anything. The idea that there never can be any such doubt... That might very well be the case, I can't say for sure though. Let me explain:
I am unable to imagine any scenario that would convince me that there is no reality. This makes my belief that reality exists almost unique since for most of the rest of my beliefs I can at least imagine a specific piece of evidence that would cause me to discard said belief. As an example I would no longer believe that the person I call father is my father if we arranged a paternity test and the test results showed us to be unrelated.
I believe the person I call father is my father and I do not think that arranging such a test would lead to this result, but I am still able to entertain the hypothetical scenario in my mind. I am able to conceive of this scenario, but it has never happened so I continue to believe that the person I call my father is indeed my father based on the evidence avaliable to me. For the majority of things that I believe there is something I could imagine would hypothetically change my mind and this is a good thing. It helps to avoid mindsets where incorrect things may be believed for incorrect reasons.
UInlike most of my other beliefs I cannot imagine any scenario which would challenge my belief that reality is real. There are numerous possibilities for why this might be the case. Perhaps such a hypothetical scenario that would convince me that there is no reality does not exist even hypothetically, perhaps such a scenario does exist and I have not thought hard enough about it, perhaps such a scenario exists but I am unable to conceive of it due to mental limitations, perhaps something else entirely. I have my own opinion on which of these is most likely but that is not important for this conversation and I cannot say for sure anyway. I can only say that if such a scenario does exist it would involve a lot more than 'sophistry'... The evidence is too concrete for any mere words to convince me otherwise.
No matter which of these explanations is accurate I have looked at the facts of the matter and arrived at the conclusion that reality is real. As mentioned before in previous posts and at the top of this post there is currently no doubt whatsoever in my mind regarding the reality of reality. Maybe in the future such doubt will be possible but if you are going to agree with me that reality is real (which would certainly be a reasonable position to take) then that future will not occur in this conversation, if at all.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Reality is one of those things that cannot be disproven. At best, you can prove that how you perceive reality is not real.
The Ultimate Reality would be reality as it truly is, as opposed to how reality is perceived.
There is nothing with a greater authority, control, influence, capacity, physical might, the ability to produce effect, etc than Reality as it Truly is in Actuality. The Ultimate Reality. The Supreme Being.
And to maybe jump ahead a bit to further relate this to the Orthodox conception of God as The Trinity, the most perfect image of God is The Truth. The acting force that enlivens everything is The Holy Spirit.
And so we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three hypostases, One Ousa or homousa. Three Persons, co-eternal, undivided, One God. And it is a mystery.
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@Mopac
Reality is one of those things that cannot be disproven. At best, you can prove that how you perceive reality is not real.
Yeah, you and I are probably correct about that. I certainly believe that an objective reality exists and you seem to as well. Whether we are right or not though I don't think going back and forth about something we both agree so strongly on is likely to result in an interesting conversation.
And to maybe jump ahead a bit to further relate this to the Orthodox conception of God as The Trinity, the most perfect image of God is The Truth. The acting force that enlivens everything is The Holy Spirit.
Okay, that explains a very generalized idea of what you believe on one specifc point. The question is where you go from there. Are you going to go into more detail about what you believe in regards to this? Are you going talk about why you believe this, or would you rather go into detail about a different aspect of the theology first?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It is written in The Gospel according to St. John the Theologian...
"The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
To worship God in Spirit and in Truth is to worship God through The Holy Trinity.
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
So to abide in The Truth, which is The Son in The Trinity is how The Son can be fully divine and fully human.
As the Christian discipline is about abiding in The Truth, that is where everything comes from.
Jesus said "blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God", and so how we abide in The Truth is by purifying the heart or Nous. This is a lifelong practice.
At least in Orthodox Christianity, and I can not speak for the heterodox, Christianity is about worshipping God in spirit and truth through the active purifying of the heart.
Do you have any questions about anything I just said?
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@Mopac
I would say that a way for a non-orthodox to understand the concept of 'purity of heart' in Orthodoxy is to consider Matthew 5:28:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Thus the objective is not to avoid committing physical adultery; the goal is to not be tempted in the first place. That is to say 'purity of heart' is achieved when one one longer feels temptation.
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@keithprosser
The inability to be tempted could be seen as a fruit of a pure heart.
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@Mopac
That too... it's a bit 'chicken and egg' as I understand it.
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@keithprosser
Just because you can't be tempted doesn't mean you have a pure heart either.
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@Mopac
Please continue.Just because you can't be tempted doesn't mean you have a pure heart either.
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@keithprosser
Purity of heart has to do with how we relate to God, not anything else!
You can't tempt someone with sex who is averse to sex. Is someone who is not tempted by sex pure of heart for that reason alone? You cannot tempt someone with money who does not value money. Is someone who is not tempted by money pure of heart for that reason alone?
No.
And really, tempt might be a bad choice of words. You can be tempted without having a lust. Jesus was tempted in the desert, but he did not have lust.
A defiled heart is pulled to and fro by their lusts. Even if they do not act on their lusts, their lusts oppress them internally.
With purity of heart, there is a type of stillness.
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@Mopac
Do you have any questions about anything I just said?
Would it be possible to explain how you think the world works using only your own words instead of copy-pasting blocks of text?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Most of what I said was using my own words, so maybe you should read over it again.
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@Mopac
Most of what I said was using my own words, so maybe you should read over it again.
239/324 = 73.7% of the post was you quoting John and Jesus (1) Speaking for yourself was a request not a requirement, but like I said in post 113 I would value your own originality of thought much more than just repeating after things that other people said.
But anyway looking just at the parts of your post that are not taken from others mouths seems to simplify to "I believe in the trinity, which is the belief that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are the same and seperate. I also believe that the trinity should be worshiped. The proper method of doing this is through a process reffered to as 'purification of the heart'.
The purpose of this summary is to make sure we are on the same page before asking some questions I have. Please confirm.
(1) wordcounter.net
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@Mopac
Thus proving Jesus didn't have a pure heart. Oh dear.The inability to be tempted could be seen as a fruit of a pure heart.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What a bummer that this is what you got out of it. Oh well.
Let me put into my own words.
The Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Of one essence and undivided.
The Father is The Ultimate Reality
The Son and The Holy Spirit are how The Father is manifested in this world.
The Son is The Word of God. The Word of God is Truth. God spoke everything into existence. There was never a time when The Word did not exist, it is co-eternal with The Father, begotten, not made through The Father. Everything that was made was made through The Word. If something exists, The Truth is in it, and nothing can exist without there being Truth in it.
The Holy Spirit is the breath of life that enlivens all creation. It is The Spirit of Truth. It originates or proceeds from The Father, and like The Son is co-eternal, there never was a time when it did not exist.
So these three hypostases or persons as it is commonly translated, are homousa or of same substance/essence as it is commonly translated with eachother. It is One God of same substance and undivided.
The three persons are different manifestations of God. So still, one God. These persons don't really exist apart from each other.
So Jesus Christ is The Word or The Son of God made flesh in a hypostatic union. Fully Human, fully divine. The Christian discipline is about abiding in The Word, becoming One in Christ and becoming partakers of this divine essence and coheirs along with Christ. This is done through purifying the heart unto truth, because the ideal Christian is to become less so that The Truth becomes more manifested in themselves. This is done through purifying the heart, and that is the point of our religious discipline.
So we Christians are the body of Christ, and we are given our flesh through The Church which is The Virgin Mary.
Or as St Cyprian put it, and forgive me for using anothers words "You cannot have God for a father if you do not have the church for your mother."
And that Church is The Orthodox Catholic Church, and that is part of the mystery ad to why we revere Mary so much. She is the mother of all believers! The Church, and Jesus Christ gets his flesh from his mother, conceived of the holy spirit.
These are not easy things to explain, nor are they easy to grasp. I am doing my best. Do you have any questions?