Democrats cave? What's your take on the CR?

Author: Double_R

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#1
Double_R
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With a number of Senate democrats voting to close debate on the republican CR and allowing the government to stay open many of them are getting torched from the left. I am trying to figure out why.

The arguments I hear over and over are that the democrats are supposed to fight, not lay down. They say the republicans used this CR to make harmful cuts and the democrats gave in to them without anything in return. I have a few problems with this.

First of all, if the government shuts down my understanding is that this will give Trump full latitude to decide which government programs are essential, basically giving him and Musk free reign to cut whatever they want with no legal recourse. And if the government shuts down how does it reopen? No one seems to know.

Secondly, the politics of this would be terrible for the democrats. They do not get to claim the republicans shut the government down when they are literally the ones who voted against keeping the government open. They will get blamed for the shut down. And at a time where Trump and the damage he is causing is making headlines everywhere, this is the perfect opening republicans need to blame the democrats for Trump's failings.

The way I see it, until the mid terms the democrats have two jobs; stop or slow the republicans substantively, and get out of the way politically. Voting to shut down the government accomplishes the opposite in both.

What am I missing here?
#2
ILikePie5
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@Double_R
You’re not missing anything. It’s just facts over feelings
#3
Shila
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@Double_R
The way I see it, until the mid terms the democrats have two jobs; stop or slow the republicans substantively, and get out of the way politically. Voting to shut down the government accomplishes the opposite in both.

What am I missing here?
Trump logic.
#4
FLRW
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Stupid Republicans are 30 percent of the population. Stupid Democrats are 30 percent of the population. 
It is time for a new political party for the smart 40 percent.
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@Double_R
Yes, that is accurate.
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@FLRW
So do you agree with Schumer and the defectors, or AOC and the house Dems?
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@ILikePie5
You’re not missing anything. It’s just facts over feelings
Oddly enough, it seems we agree. The democrats have no leverage here, but it seems that thought is just too grim to accept so they have to appeal to vague terms like "fight" and "stand up" which in this situation really doesn't mean a thing.
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@Double_R

I agree with Schumer.
#9
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What authority would trump have to start slashing spending if the government shut down? Hed have pretext and excuses but no actual authority.

If the government shut down maybe the dems would be blamed since they r a minority party resisting the majority. But maybe the public would view it as trump has been exceeding his authority and causing dysfunction and trump was bein trump an throwing a hissy fit till he gets his way. I wouldnt assume the public would view it one way or another, but I guess half the population approves of trump now, so maybe it'd be split down partisan lines
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@Double_R
See my last post
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@Double_R
The arguments I hear over and over are that the democrats are supposed to fight, not lay down. They say the republicans used this CR to make harmful cuts and the democrats gave in to them without anything in return. I have a few problems with this.
The alleged cuts [Medicare, Social Security] are claimed by Democrats, but unsubstantiated by Trump or Musk. They are not cutting into those programs, other than those who are collecting benefits for people who have been dead for years upon years. That's called fraud. Get it? Trump has constantly and consistently said "No cuts.  Why don't you believe it?. They are cutting waste and abuse, such as funding education loans, which individuals have taken out with the assurance they, personally, will pay them back, and now feel [by Biden's promises] they are entitled. Also cutting the nonsenses of USAID payments, like condoms for Gaza? The sexual culture of hookers in Bozoland? 

if the government shuts down my understanding is that this will give Trump full latitude to decide which government programs are essential, basically giving him and Musk free reign to cut whatever they want with no legal recourse. And if the government shuts down how does it reopen? No one seems to know.
The Executive has no power to defund programs that are the territory f the Legislature [Congress] and Judicial [Supreme Court], does he? No, he doesn't. Miss your high school civics classes? Do you know how many times the government t has shutdown over CRs in the past? Too numerous to count. What make3s this one different? And as it happens, Shhoofly caved on his threat to shutdown on Friday last, so it isn't happening, anyway.

the politics of this would be terrible for the democrats. They do not get to claim the republicans shut the government down when they are literally the ones who voted against keeping the government open. They will get blamed for the shut down. And at a time where Trump and the damage he is causing is making headlines everywhere, this is the perfect opening republicans need to blame the democrats for Trump's failings.
What damage is Trump actually causing? Show me. The say-so is not sufficient for further response.


#12
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@FLRW
Stupid Republicans... Stupid Democrats... 
How does creating a new party make 60% of us suddenly smarter? I agree, some Repubs are stupid, and so are some Demos. But all of them? No. And, being an Indie, I do not agree we're all smart, either...
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@fauxlaw
Stupid Republicans... Stupid Democrats... 
How does creating a new party make 60% of us suddenly smarter? I agree, some Repubs are stupid, and so are some Demos. But all of them? No. And, being an Indie, I do not agree we're all smart, either...
That is why America is stuck with a two stupid party system and the other parties are left out.
#14
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Secondly, the politics of this would be terrible for the democrats. They do not get to claim the republicans shut the government down when they are literally the ones who voted against keeping the government open. They will get blamed for the shut down.
Agreed. Every time Republicans demanded a shutdown over the past 10 years they took immense flak for it. There's no reason why Democrats should be insulated from the consequences when it's their turn to attempt the same.
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#15
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@n8nrgim
What authority would trump have to start slashing spending if the government shut down?
When the government shuts down, funding for all non essential programs are immediately halted. In that situation the executive branch gains full authority to determine if any essential program is actually "non-essential" and stop funding for that as well. Normally Congress holds that power but if there's no Congress, it all defaults to the executive.

But maybe the public would view it as trump has been exceeding his authority and causing dysfunction and trump was bein trump an throwing a hissy fit till he gets his way. I wouldnt assume the public would view it one way or another, but I guess half the population approves of trump now, so maybe it'd be split down partisan lines
That's the argument the democrats would make but it will fail. Again, republicans voted to keep the government open, democrats voted to shut it down. They're not winning that argument. And we've seen this many times before. Every time the government shuts down it's the party voting against it that gets the majority of the blame.

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#16
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@fauxlaw
The alleged cuts [Medicare, Social Security] are claimed by Democrats, but unsubstantiated by Trump or Musk. They are not cutting into those programs, other than those who are collecting benefits for people who have been dead for years upon years. That's called fraud.
That's called a lie. They have yet to provide a single shred of evidence that any of that is happening, and common sense already tells us it's not. Multiple experts on the social security system have explained why the system operates the way it does so these claims already smack of egregious ignorance at best, and if such fraud was actually happening people would be getting arrested.

Trump has constantly and consistently said "No cuts.  Why don't you believe it?
Because he's the most pathological liar in the history of American politics. Also, see above.

They are cutting waste and abuse, such as funding education loans, which individuals have taken out with the assurance they, personally, will pay them back, and now feel [by Biden's promises] they are entitled.
Then it's Congress's job to slash funding, not by executive fiat.

Also cutting the nonsenses of USAID payments, like condoms for Gaza?
Now you're just demonstrating your dishonesty. I already posted the fact check for you in the last thread and you ignored that entirely only to bring it back up here.

There were no $50 million in condoms sent to Gaza. That is a lie told to you by liars who lie because they know gullible people like you will believe this garbage.

What damage is Trump actually causing? Show me.
Why? Until you can figure out that we did not send $50 million in condoms to Gaza there's no reason for me to waste my time showing you anything.

#17
ILikePie5
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@Double_R
Oddly enough, it seems we agree. The democrats have no leverage here, but it seems that thought is just too grim to accept so they have to appeal to vague terms like "fight" and "stand up" which in this situation really doesn't mean a thing.
Schumer played this correctly. 7 years ago, I wouldn’t disagreed with you. 7 years ago the establishment media had enough influence to hammer home the fact that this was a GOP shutdown, even if it wasn’t. They would never have played clips of blatant hypocrisy. The media picture has changed in 7 years. Dems can no longer hide behind the MSM. They have to face voters, who actually funny enough disagree with Schumer. Same issue Republicans had with McConnell. It’s good to see Dem voters see the pain we felt. I feel bad for Democratic voters tbh with you
#18
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@ILikePie5
It's a bloodbath.
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@Double_R
There is a Gaza in Africa.

Regardless, we can stop wasting all of the billions lost overseas, whatever the excuse is for the expenditure and whatever the destination, and Americans will not be harmed at all.
#20
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@Shila
the other parties are left out.
How are other parties left out? In very election, I see other partly candidates running  for office, and some even win. I've even vortex for them Ona few occasions, being an Indie. So, what "left out?" Open your eyes. Is it you limiting your own view of the ballot, and its results?
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@Double_R
if such fraud was actually happening people would be getting arrested.
One is  arrested when the people responsible for receiving the payments every month are actually found. All we know at present is that the money is leaving the treasury to what may be an illegit address that the Treasury doesn't know is fraudulent. When DOGE figures it out, the money will stop, and the people responsible will be held to account. Remember you've had a DOJ for the last 4 years that only weaponized justice. Don't expect this stuff to resolve in the day Rome was built.

Because he's the most pathological liar in the history of American politics. 
More bullshyte. Trump is accused of telling 30,000 lies in his term. Psychology Today published an article some 15 years ago [neaning it's probably worse today] that the average person lies 20 times daily. Over four years, plus leap year, that amounts to about the same number with rounding Trump is merely average, no worse than you or me, and what some call "lies" are not deceptive, the real key to a lie. 

Then it's Congress's job to slash funding, not by executive fiat.
Glad you recognize that. But they manage to keep it up, don't they, because they use all their time trying to be DOJ - investigating.

Why? Until you can figure out that 
You just played the same game, boyo.

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@fauxlaw
the other parties are left out.
How are other parties left out? In very election, I see other partly candidates running  for office, and some even win. I've even vortex for them Ona few occasions, being an Indie. So, what "left out?" Open your eyes. Is it you limiting your own view of the ballot, and its results?
A minority party has no say in governing.
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#23
Double_R
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@fauxlaw
One is  arrested when the people responsible for receiving the payments every month are actually found. All we know at present is that the money is leaving the treasury to what may be an illegit address that the Treasury doesn't know is fraudulent.
Translation: "We have no evidence that any of this is actually happening, but we have faith it is because the Trump administration told us so".

When DOGE figures it out, the money will stop, and the people responsible will be held to account.
And when will this be exactly? At what point will reality hit after no one gets arrested?

Remember you've had a DOJ for the last 4 years that only weaponized justice.
The DOJ was never weaponized. You guys cannot provide a single example of weaponization, it's always the same nonsense where you simply point to a republican getting arrested and then without even examining what they were arrested for or the evidence just claim the arest itself is the proof. It's intellectually depraved nonsense.

Trump is accused of telling 30,000 lies in his term. Psychology Today published an article some 15 years ago [neaning it's probably worse today] that the average person lies 20 times daily. Over four years, plus leap year, that amounts to about the same number with rounding Trump is merely average, no worse than you or me
The average person isn't talking to the entire nation every day. They're not being questioned by the press about their decisions which are impacting the lives of over 300 million people at home and 8 billion globally.

Moreover, the 30k lies Trump told is just the accounting of his public statements. The psychology today article is talking about every interaction with every person all throughout the day. That is an entirely different thing. If we added all the lies Trump told behind closed doors and to his wife and kids that number would be astronomically higher given his demonstrated disregard for any tether to reality.

This is such a disingenuous argument.


Then it's Congress's job to slash funding, not by executive fiat.
Glad you recognize that.
I'm not the one bragging that the president I voted for is slashing government spending without any regard to what Congress appropriated.

Why? Until you can figure out that 
You just played the same game, boyo.
I'm playing the game of reality where facts matter. You're playing the game of repeating spoonfed talking points as if they were fact, then ignoring the fact checks just to keep repeating the same lies.

There was no $50 million shipment of condoms to Gaza. Are you ready to admit that?

#24
Mharman
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Wait, we almost had a government shutdown that gave Elon Musk the ability to cut govt programs even further, and it was thwarted at the last second? DAMMIT!!!
#25
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@fauxlaw
First, radical Democrats scream for a government shutdown, and now Democrat judges are trying to turn planes full of Venezuelan terrorists around to romp around the USA.

Democrats must feel no pulse on the American populace. That's a beat going on only in their heads.
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@Shila
There is no official or comprehensive audit specifically analyzing how many of Trump's 30,573 false or misleading statements turned out to be true. The Washington Post's Fact Checker categorized them as false or misleading at the time based on available evidence. However, many claims initially labeled misleading could have later been validated or partially corroborated as more information emerged.
For example:
  • COVID-19 lab leak theory: Trump suggested COVID-19 may have originated from a lab in Wuhan. Initially dismissed as a conspiracy, it later became a plausible theory investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.
  • Spying on his campaign: Trump claimed his campaign was spied on. Initially denied by media outlets, later evidence from the Durham report revealed FBI misconduct, partially validating his claim.
  • Hunter Biden’s laptop: Trump’s claim about Hunter Biden’s laptop was initially dismissed as disinformation but was later confirmed as authentic by major news outlets. Trump's misleading statements fact checked by WAPO about the 51 agencies were also found to be verifiably true after the authentication of the laptop.
While fact-checkers have documented many false or misleading statements made by former President Donald Trump, some of his claims regarding the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Steele dossier have proven to be mostly valid. The Steele dossier, commissioned during the 2016 presidential campaign, alleged Trump had ties to Russia. However, many of its claims were later discredited or remained unverified. The primary source for the dossier admitted that much of the speculative information was portrayed as fact, creating a false impression.

Additionally, Newsbusters and Media Research Center have tracked CNN and found around 5 obvious misleading statements on average per day rising to an average of 15 misleading statements per day when adding in statements with subtle bias. MSNBC ranked much higher in daily misleading statements. And as we know, the number one misleading statement heard from CNN and MSNBC was the statement repeated over 30,000 times that Biden was mentally fit. 30,000 instances as a cumulative total across all corporate left-wing media, multiple outlets, and numerous personalities repeating similar talking points over a two-year period. That is the big lie that cost the Democrats the election and cost corporate left wing media over half of their audience.
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#27
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@Greyparrot
and now Democrat judges are trying to turn planes full of Venezuelan terrorists around to romp around the USA.
The Trump administration has yet to provid evidence to anyone that any of these individuals are terrorists, they just called them that as an excuse to invoke emergency powers that were never intended to be used in such a frivolous way.

Given the administration's proven and repeated lack of regard for the truth when it comes to touting their accomplishments, anyone who takes their claims at face value is either grossly ignorant or a downright moron.

And by the way, the individuals at issue were already in US custody, so even if everything the administration is alleging regarding how dangerous these individuals are, that still doesn't justify deporting them before this issue could be adjudicated.

Democrats must feel no pulse on the American populace.
What democrats feel begins with a regard for reality, which is often nuanced. These individuals may be dangerous, but there is this thing in America we call due process and that kind of matters. What this judge ruled is that there is no indication their due process was respected and that the government has an obligation to abide by it before taking drastic action against someone in this country. It's kind of a common sense notion, or at least it used to be before Trump took a wrecking ball to our national IQ.

*Queued the usual GP response; cherry pick one sentence, ignore the rest, them reply with some version of "oh yeah well lots of people agree with me"*
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#28
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@Greyparrot
Additionally, Newsbusters and Media Research Center have tracked CNN and found around 5 obvious misleading statements on average per day rising to an average of 15 misleading statements per day when adding in statements with subtle bias. MSNBC ranked much higher in daily misleading statements.
What a stupid comparison. Even if these numbers are accurate, you're (well obviously you didn't write this) comparing a 24 hour news network that does nothing but report on world events all day long everyday and does so with multiple hosts, pundits and guests all with different points of view to one man as if to suggest it's all the same. That's absurd.
#29
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@Double_R
I see you don't dispute the big lie repeated ad infinitum about Biden's cognizance.
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@Double_R
It's kind of a common sense notion, or at least it used to be...
Hard X for doubt noting the deafening silence on the left when Biden pissed all over a scotus ruling regarding school loans when they clearly said only Congress had the authority...

Contrast that with a radical leftist judge intervening in matters of the executive authority regarding national defense.