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@Earth
Yeah, I'm thinking that might be what happened.
Debate Mafia DP2
Posts
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Total:
180
Voting Owen.
I have voted for Owen as well.
Already voted Owen as well. We’ll have tomorrow to discuss the final match of the DP, just a heads up that I’ll be flying home part of that day.
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@Earth
Could be possible I pissed it away on Wylted.
Nope I got confirmation that it lasts on you the whole day phase through every vote.
apparently sensor only counts players not votes, so nevermind. only way to prove earth would be to have him counter vote against three votes and see if it ends in a tie
Owen was eliminated. He bribed campus security with a couple bucks and they let him stay for a bit. He may continue talking in thread for the rest of the day.
The match Casey vs Bullish has begun.
Submit votes via PM within 24 hours from the next player post.
May have to replace out. I'm going out of town on Wednesday and probably won't be posting til Saturday/Sunday
My work day is about to start, I'll talk more later. Voted Bullish for obvious reasons.
Between flights. Given how one-sided that last match was, I figured there was little point to using my Sensor.
As for this match, I’m still not sure which way I’m leaning. I’ll have to participate in some discussion of it when I get home.
vote casey 👍
Do we even wanna bother confirming my role
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@Bullish
I believe your role does what you say it does. It just doesn't town confirm you. With roles like mine and Luna's, I don't think it would necessarily be unbalanced in the hands of scum.
Everyone pls vote for casey, They are scummier than me. I'll concede 1 point and that is my role doesn't confirm me as town. That being said it's not inherently scummy either.
Vote thief on the other hand is inherently scummy because it takes away town's primary power to achieve victory. Vote thieving shouldn't be used on anyone unless they are known scum, and if they are known scum we should just lynch them instead of playing games with stealing votes. Vote thief is like roleblocker, it's not affiliation confimative, but it leans scum.
Casey is probably the defining vote in lynching Pie instead of Owen on DP1. It's basically consensus at this point Owen is scum. Owen looks like he gave up. Casey was on a scummy wagon.
Casey is also defending vader for no reason, including calling vader our "towniest player". Vader's role could also totally be scum, and his usage of his role was pretty anti-town. I think it's possible the scum team is vader casey owen. That's probably why they RB'd whiteflame, it would have been game over if we got 0 scum on that wagon.
I'm basically town's only active player since Wylted got lynched. I pushed everyone on the sensor plan. Even though it failed it was a town move.
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@Casey_Risk
I believe your role does what you say it does. It just doesn't town confirm you. With roles like mine and Luna's, I don't think it would necessarily be unbalanced in the hands of scum.
That holds true for both of you, though, right? I get your argument about a scum Popular being plausible, I just don’t think it shifts the narrative in your favor.
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@whiteflame
Okay, got a little bit of time on my break to respond to people.
That holds true for both of you, though, right? I get your argument about a scum Popular being plausible, I just don’t think it shifts the narrative in your favor.
Yeah, fair enough, I'm just pointing out that Popular is not inherently town. Austin is a big believer in the idea that role confirmation ≠ affiliation confirmation, and he's said that's part of his design philosophy in the past.
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@Bullish
Vote thief on the other hand is inherently scummy because it takes away town's primary power to achieve victory. Vote thieving shouldn't be used on anyone unless they are known scum, and if they are known scum we should just lynch them instead of playing games with stealing votes. Vote thief is like roleblocker, it's not affiliation confimative, but it leans scum.
You're right that it's traditionally a scum role, but Austin has made it town before. Also, I didn't use my role last night. I waived, as I already said.
Casey is probably the defining vote in lynching Pie instead of Owen on DP1. It's basically consensus at this point Owen is scum. Owen looks like he gave up. Casey was on a scummy wagon.
I know that my vote makes me seem a bit scummy, and I realized that at the time as well, but I think I've explained my reasoning behind it fairly well. I believed Wylted was town and agreed with his reasoning. On the other hand, I think Pie voting for himself was a stupid move, unless he really was the Godfather, in which case it was a genius move. Knowing Pie, I can't discount the latter at all.
On the other hand, if you think he was town, he sussed you. Personally, I'm not convinced you're scum, but I do think that out of everyone currently alive, you're probably the most likely to be scum.
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@Bullish
Casey is also defending vader for no reason, including calling vader our "towniest player". Vader's role could also totally be scum, and his usage of his role was pretty anti-town. I think it's possible the scum team is vader casey owen. That's probably why they RB'd whiteflame, it would have been game over if we got 0 scum on that wagon.
I don't know why you're so hung up on Vader. I think you're the only one who really susses him rn. Pretty much everyone was townreading him DP1, and he used his role exactly how he said he would. The fact that it turned out to hurt the town is a weak point against him in light of that. Townies do things that hurt the town all the time. You have to find a way to separate that from actual scummy behavior, and behaviorally speaking, I can't find a good reason to scumread him. Plus, I think his role is just very unlikely to go to scum in general. It just feels like it would be too powerful in the hands of the mafia.
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@Bullish
@Casey_Risk
I just got back from a very long set of delayed flights, so I’m home at last, but tired enough that I’m still trying to get my thoughts together on this match.
I’ll give my choice before I head to bed, but for now, suffice it to say that whichever of you survives this DP likely isn’t surviving the next one anyway. I’m townreading everyone else in this game and I think that’s a common sentiment. So regardless of who I choose, I’m good saying that I’ll lead a vote against the other next DP.
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@Earth
@Lunatic
@Bullish
@Casey_Risk
Alright, so here's my thinking:
I prefer to lynch Casey this DP over Bullish.
That comes down to mechanics. I think both of them have given their actual roles since they are role confirmable and they're either just giving them straight up as town or using them to get some towncred as scum. With Bullish, that effect is going to taper off, and even if it doesn't, it's not going to have a meaningful effect on future DPs given that the vote difference is probably going to be significantly more than would be covered by the Popular role. By contrast, I can see the Vote Thief being a real problem since it could significantly alter the vote balance in the game.
There's not a lot to behaviorally drive me in either direction.
Bullish's early decision to sheep Luna and his stated ignorance of the theme don't do him any favors, but they set me off mainly as gutreads and I haven't seen any substantial flags since. I do find Bullish's sussing of Vader to be a very strange choice considering he was so widely townread in DP1 that he got nominated to be entirely excluded from these matches this DP, but I also have a hard time scumreading something so obviously weird.
When Casey started off this match by calling out Bullish's participation in the elimination of Owen last match, that initially set me off due to the aforementioned exchange between Savant and Bullish, but when I pointed that out, Casey acknowledged it in a way that largely made it null to me. I can see the case Bullish is making on the vote on Pie, who WyIted found was innocent. I understand the basis for that vote, even if I disagreed with it and it proved more problematic with hindsight.
I'll hold off on voting until we've had more discussion (and frankly, I'd really like to hear more from Luna and Earth, who are still around but haven't contributed much during this match), but that's where I'm leaning.
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@whiteflame
I’ll give my choice before I head to bed, but for now, suffice it to say that whichever of you survives this DP likely isn’t surviving the next one anyway.
Yeah, fair enough, I think you're probably right about that. I'd still prefer to stay alive until tomorrow just because it's better for the town to have a town voice contributing than a scum one. Not that I think Bullish is definitely scum, but he might be, and I know for a fact that I'm town.
Also, just something I want to put out there because I forgot about it before, but I can also steal the vote of a dead player. I can steal Owen's vote tonight if I'm alive and no one has any objections.
honestly the only reason I’d punch bullish here is because he said he wasn’t gonna participate in the savant lynch but did anyway, but literally everyone else seems to excuse that so I guess I’m missing something?! Idk. I agree that vote thief in general is more scummy of a role though, and it’s true that bullish has been active though I don’t know if that’s indication he is town or just passionate mafia. I’m still not convinced pie was town so the argument about Casey voting for pie doesn’t sway me.
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@Casey_Risk
Also, just something I want to put out there because I forgot about it before, but I can also steal the vote of a dead player. I can steal Owen's vote tonight if I'm alive and no one has any objections.
I like the idea, but this isn't something we'll be able to verify. If we do end up voting Bullish, then this is the optimal way to go to prevent a scum vote.
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@Lunatic
honestly the only reason I’d punch bullish here is because he said he wasn’t gonna participate in the savant lynch but did anyway, but literally everyone else seems to excuse that so I guess I’m missing something?! Idk.
As I mentioned to Casey earlier, look back at the end of the DP, particularly posts 133, 134 and 136. These were all posted before the match ended, and Bullish posted in response to all that. I'd be a lot more sus of Bullish if he'd stuck to his guns at that point and hadn't posted a vote on Savant, since that was the last word from him.
I’m still not convinced pie was town so the argument about Casey voting for pie doesn’t sway me.
All I have to go on for this is that WyIted said he was town based on his role. He could have manipulated that result. Regardless, I don't think ex post facto results change what I think was a justifiable reason at the time for Casey to select Pie for elimination.
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@Casey_Risk
Well... this might very well be the last word of the DP on the matter since it doesn't seem like Earth is going to contribute to any discussion of this match. Part of the problem with this setup is that we lose so many people so rapidly that it comes down to whoever remains to keep up discussion, which is even harder with Vader stepping out and Owen and Earth apparently absent. Everyone who is dead still has to be involved to make this work, but they can't contribute, so the people remaining in the game necessarily wield a lot of opportunity to influence the vote. Maybe I should be directing more of these posts at dead players, but I just have to assume that they're paying attention and voting accordingly.
I'm fine with the vote going against Bullish if people want to go that way, but mine will go on Casey this DP for reasons I've already stated. Casey, if you do end up surviving this match, the choice to use your role on Owen should be a given.
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@whiteflame
Yeah, it's unfortunate how low engagement this game has been. I don't think anyone expected it to be as experimental as it is, which is probably a contributing factor.
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@Casey_Risk
Yeah, it's unfortunate how low engagement this game has been. I don't think anyone expected it to be as experimental as it is, which is probably a contributing factor.
Yeah, I suspect that's the case. It's cool to try something new, but investment seems particularly low in this design.
Casey was eliminated.
Submit night actions within 24 hours (I will end night sooner if all players with applicable night actions submit before the deadline).
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@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
Note that I might extend night to find a replacement for Vader, depending on this is possible.
Please close thread, thanks