Amoranemix 28 :
How does does medisputing that the perception of who is responsible for the inglorious press conference depends on one’s viewpoint of Ukraine’s rights and the USA’s obligations (disputing that they are intereconnected) exemplify what you wrote?
Because one’spoint of view affects one’s perceptions. Doesn’t this basically describe your position on the matter?[16]
“If one sees continually helping Ukraine to repel an invader as “right” and being reluctant to continue helping Ukraine do that as “wrong,” then one will likely view Zelenskyy as the victim of an ambush by two boorish American leaders.”[17]
[16] My claim is that the oval office ambush was inappropriate, not that there is a perspective according to which it is inappropriate. It violates basic decency, etiquette and politeness, maturity, veracity and diplomatic conduct (which the aggressors are allegedly fans of).
[17] Probably, but I was arguing for how things are, not how they are viewed.
Amoranemix28 :
I am sure there are people believing most of the blame lies with Zelenskyy, but anything can be believed. Pick some preposterous nonsense and there are people believing it. I believe there is an objective truth and that these people are wrong.
I think that there was plenty of bad behavior to go around. Again, how one assigns the lion’s share of the blame depends on one’s point of view. You actually go even further by believing that you know what is objectively the case and that you possess the correct, objective view. To me, that is akin to saying, “I know that there are many gullible people who think milk chocolate is better, but the objective truth is that dark chocolate is clearly superior.”[18]
Iam only making reasonable assumptions. Of course if one had extravagant views like it being OK to spread misinformation in a press conference, then a different evaluation may be reached.
[18]There are to my knowledge no existing standards (like I have given for how to behave on press conferences with a guest) on which to base the superiority of milk chocolate. For example, they treated Zelenskyy inpolitely, but eating milk chocolate is not less polite than eating dark chocolate.
Amoranemix28 to Greyparrot :
[5] How does asking a question about Vance’s diplomacy nonsense qualify as an ambush?
[6] You are cherrypicking. Although I suspect your intention was to show fault with Zelensky, it illustrates, if you are right, the disingenuous intentions of the hosts: humiliate Zelenskyy. I am sure there are people who think that is appropriate, but are there brave enough to admit that is what they think?
Now, I agree itis not clear why Zelenskyy refuses a cease-fire, but he clearlydoesn’t trust Putin and a cease-fire would allow Russia to rearm.
It is unlikelythe hosts thought as you suggest that Zelenskyy would not accapt acease-fire under any circumstance, for that would be stupid of them.
Greyparrot:
[noresponse]
You forgot to answer my question and you aren't brave enough apparently.
Amoranemix 11 to Greyparrot:
[4] That is incorrect. I don’t assume the USA owes Zelensky and yet that seemed like bullying to me.
[5] What a relief knowing that we are free to continue the war if we are against peace. I feel a lot better now.
Greyparrot:
[no respone]
Amoranemix28 :
So there is no dispute that Zelenskyy’s treatment was inappropriate. It’s justthat some people prefer not the draw attention to that fact.
Greyparrot33 :
There is no response because the EU position is clear. Either they will either offer no cease fire because they do not trust Putin or they will fail to broker a deal with Putin because he does not trust Europe to keep to cease fires as they had broken since 2014 (look up all minsk ceasefire agreements the west violated).[19]
If Zelenskyywants to pursue that "diplomatic" path with the EU, then hecan have his everlasting war.[20]
[19] As is usual with cease-fire agreements, that one was not respected. I heard the Russians broke it most, but I suppose you can argue the opposite. How is that supposed to qualify as a reason not to respond?
[20] Trump and Vance, contrary to what they pretend, don’t really believe Zelenskyy wants a prolonged war. They probably suspects he wants the Russians to leave his country in peace.
Amoranemix 28 :
Nice selective quoting, especially since the part you omitted is relevant.
[6] You are mistaken. Zelenskyy does not demand that kind of “diplomacy”. Zelenskyy asks for help defending his country against invasion. However, it is the kind of “diplomacy” Putin, Trump’s coveted role model, uses.
[7] Why do you selectively criticize Zelenskyy, given that Trump and Vance had much more to be criticized for?
Why are you not criticizing Russia for using that kind of “diplomacy”? Putin didn’t ask anyone’s permission for using the kind of “diplomacy” Vance and other Trump fans blame Zelenskyy for wanting to use, he just uses it without interruption since 2014.
Greyparrot:
[no respone]
Youforgot to answer my questions.
Amoranemix28 :
[11] Has it escaped you that Putin has blamed Zelenskyy and Ukrainian nationalists a lot? And NATO for expanding eastward? Indeed, he used it as an excuse to invade.
[12] Ok, so you and Trump not blaming Putin and you warning against blaming anyone would be consistent with not wanting to take the path to war, but why blame Zelensky then?
Of course, blaming does more than pave the path to war: it shows which side you are on.
[13] That is what Trump is aiming for as even before the negotiations he made concessions to Putin and none to Zelenskyy.
[14] You are mistaken. Military conflicts almost almost end with diplomacy.
[15] Why are you criticizing Zelenskyy again? It appears very difficult for you to hide your bias.
Greyparrot:
[no respone]
Youforgot to answer my questions.
I’ve searched for a cartoon satiring the effectiveness of diplomacyagainst brute force, but came up empty. So this will have to do:
Vladimir Putin: “The time is ripe to invade the Baltics.”
Top Russian general: “It’s too risky, Mr. President. They have gooddiplomats.”
