Who is the real tough guy?

Author: Greyparrot

Posts

Total: 148
Topic's author
#91
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,223
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Probably Russia again, lol.

At least the Ukrainians are sticking in there
Sticking in the ground maybe. Or perhaps they have to wait for the spring thaw to count the bodies.

Well I guess Russia is laughing about the stupidity of it all just like America laughed at all the dead Japanese in WW2 when they refused to surrender.
#92
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@WyIted
Haiti has not the strength,
But it 'is in their interest to speak and act as their strength allows, for their benefit.

Peace is fine, but I do not have confidence in 'Trump or 'Russia's 'peace.

I think America should have tried to make more do with and strengthening of UN Peace Forces,
I think the 'world should have united more and intervened more in certain situations such as the Rwandan genocide.
I think UN Peace Forces and units sent by nations in various police peace keeping actions should all be volunteers.

I think some American police wars have been stupid, greed, overextensions of the high ranking members of American government.

I 'do think Europe could do more itself.
#93
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 7,107
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@FLRW
Russia would be weaker with that extra land. It's just a bad ideal to hold all of that
#94
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 7,107
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Lemming
If your are being sincere about America strength wouldn't it be more logically consistent for you to want to keep Europe weak. Europe having some power would grant them more autonomy and weaken America's influence. It wouldn't be logically inconsistent for me because I believe in non interventionism but it seems it would be for you
Topic's author
#95
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,223
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Lemming
“There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others.”
Yes, and Ukraine should definitely postpone this one and sign a cease fire. Absolutely.

There are degrees to losing a war. Some degrees are unrecoverable.

I 'do think Europe could do more itself.
Yes, and this is how the peace will last. When the European appeasement ends.
#96
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,300
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
You should go there and fight.
#97
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Greyparrot
The Czech children 'not dying in 'war 'was the 'problem.
As they simply died in so called 'peace after,
The 'betrayal of Czechoslovakia Munich Agreement, the lack of mettle and lack understanding of the need of sacrifice by the betrayers 'was the problem. 

"During the occupation, between 294,000[1] to 320,000[2] citizens were murdered, the majority of them Jews.[3] Reprisal killings were especially harsh after the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, including the infamous Lidice massacre. Large numbers were drafted for slave labour in Germany."

The betrayers were 'fine to sacrifice the Czechs, but this did not save them from Hitler's war.
. . .

Which Japanese deaths in particular?

If their deaths prevented Russia from occupying all of Japan,
Prevented a worse situation for Japan after the war,
Prevented their Emperor from being tried,
No. They were not 'meaningless.

I think many of their deaths and lives in various situations could have been better used,
'Some of the situations, the Japanese might have been better off surrendering, other situations, better off fighting.

The fallen are not forgotten,
The pride one feels in fellow countrymen of iron, is not lessened by their dying.
It can inspire, whether those who knew them yesterday, or those who know of them 100 years hence.

#98
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Greyparrot
@WyIted
Yes it would,
However I think Europe is 'strengthened to a degree by being able to focus their budgets on nonmilitary matters.
While America is weakened some if it shoulders entire burden,
Burden is still 'necessary in my eyes.

American and European values have a number of similarities,
It is not bad to have them as allies, even if they increase their military influence.

'Possible a ceasefire at current moment is to Ukraine's advantage, but I am doubtful.

#99
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 393
Posts: 12,384
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Lemming
If you want for USA to be powerful forever, it would be logical for USA to be allies with Russia and China and North Korea.

Europe other than France is mostly useless.
#100
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 7,107
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Lemming
American and European values have a number of similarities,
It is not bad to have them as allies, even if they increase their military influence.
I am seeing a lot of people arrested for memes in those European countries and some shenanigans to keep anti establishment politicians out of power after they get the needed votes to get in. I am not sure these countries are too far from being Nazi Germany. 

Ukraine also seemed to do some anti Democratic things as well, for example censoring news stations and banning some Christian churches. 

Is this just about Realpolitik and ignoring the evil done in European nations? We certainly aren't holding any higher principles .
#101
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Best.Korea
@WyIted
I think honor among thieves can be shaky, and thus working with thieves is better avoided.

For 'me, a 'large part is Realpolitik, yes.
I dislike drafting American lives or wallets into moral crusades.

Some Realpolitik world situations are 'similar to moral crusades, but are not completely so.
Wanting to hold other nations to 'degrees of honor and morality, I think has value in stability and reducing possible damage to America.

I view Total War or a lack of the Geneva Convention being commonly practiced by other countries for instance,
As bad for America, because it could be used against our troops.
. . .

I don't care for 'all European laws or practices,
But it is a matter of taking and encouraging what values one 'can in others.

American actions in the past and current is often not 'ideal,
We have had the draft before, have invaded other countries, propped up Dictators before, have had less than ideal civic situations during wartime.

But I think we try, and should 'continue trying to improve.
Both for practical and moral reasons.
#102
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 393
Posts: 12,384
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Lemming
I think honor among thieves can be shaky, and thus working with thieves is better avoided.
If you are afraid of thieves who can hurt you, logic will tell you that you shouldnt work against those thieves, but rather, being an ally with them is much more beneficial than attacking them.
#103
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,696
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@WyIted
So, there a two ways to  totally duck out of a skirmish with Mr Putin.

1. Let down all your allies of the past 75 years or so, and jump into bed with Mr Putin and kiss his arse.

2. Encourage the Ukrainians to take up the skirmish, but keep it at a safe distance, and get some rare earth thrown in for your troubles.


#104
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Best.Korea
Not if not attacking them, leads to them being everywhere.

It is also a common understanding between law abiding individuals in a community, to aid each other against thieves.
One must perform necessary upkeep to alliances.

Thus attacking thieves is often a must.
(Though not 'always)
#105
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,696
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Well I doubt that the relatives of the 27000000 dead Russians and the 407000 dead Americans laughed much either.

But let's be honest, the Russian elite has never given a toss about the death of cannon fodder. 

And I doubt that MR Trump does either.


#106
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 393
Posts: 12,384
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Lemming
Not if not attacking them, leads to them being everywhere
Attacking those who can destroy you is suicide, and not any safe move.

You are not fighting against some unarmed civilians in Iraq anymore.

You are fighting against nuclear superpowers of China and Russia which already outpower you in all ways.

So unless you want constant wars with them which will eventually result in total war, you might as well make peace.

Besides, lets not pretend that USA and Europe are some good guys.

You are all bad guys here, so dont pretend you are doing anyone a favor by pushing Ukrainians into death so you can feel morally superior.
Topic's author
#107
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,223
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Let down all your allies of the past 75 years or so
Russia was an ally 75 Years ago. England was against USA up until the Great War. Allies can change. Nations don't need to engage in suicide pacts.

As Wylted said, with all the fascism coming out of Germany and the undemocracy in Ukraine, we are actually closer now to Russia than any of those countries.
#108
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 3,208
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Savant
That's what everyone thought about Germany in the 1930s.
Germany didn't have nukes, so they could be conquered.
We have nukes and all it took to conquer the US was a charlatan who's only weapons were lies and conspiracy theories.  


#109
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,696
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Yep, closer to Russia, closer to North Korea.

So whilst Donald is sucking Vlads dick, Kim will be able to fuck Donalds arse.

HaHa and you think that Russia is democratic.
#110
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 2,695
4
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
4
7
6
-->
@Sidewalker
We have nukes and all it took to conquer the US was a charlatan who's only weapons were lies and conspiracy theories.
Leadership change is different. The country's still around, and we've had worse presidents before.
Topic's author
#111
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,223
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Apparently the zelensky cock has lost all the flavor.
#112
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,310
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

OMG, is that  Greyputin ?
Topic's author
#113
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,223
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Lemming
Which Japanese deaths in particular?

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, those were necessary deaths, no?
#114
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Greyparrot
@Best.Korea
Self defense and community defense against thieves is not suicide.
Rather it is ignoring crime, that leads to a communities ruin.

Iraq was not a superpower, no.

Ukraine has been fighting for 'some time now, despite the 'superpower of Russia.

As I've stated earlier in places, I do no think appeasement is wise.
. . .

I don't think I've claimed America or Europe to be perfect,
But I think we hold to a number of values and laws that I prefer to those of some other places.

'Trying to do right in the now and future,
Is something good, not bad.
Even if we have some bad history.

Your thinking is that of two men with criminal pasts,
The first about to commit a murder and robbery, snarls at the second man who stops him,
"How dare you stop me or avoid such activity yourself?
How dare you try to be a better human being when you have once sinned?"

I do not advocate for America to engage in plunder or aggressive war.

I view it to America's benefit, as well as Ukraine's that they fight and do not surrender.
I also view it a just war against an aggressor.

For Japan, possibly.
Moreso when one considers their knowledge of the situation at the time.

I do not blame Britain for resisting Hitler,
I do not blame Japan for resisting the Allies, to gain better peace terms.
#115
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,696
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Nope, just testing nuclear weapons at a distance.

200000 civilians were just guinea pigs.

Was always going to be someone.

Clever stupid gene.
Topic's author
#116
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,223
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Well said.
#117
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 393
Posts: 12,384
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Lemming
Self defense and community defense against thieves is not suicide.
This isnt about self defense. USA isnt attacked. None of US important allies are attacked. This is about you trying to fight indirect war with more powerful superpowers and hoping to somehow win. So yes, it still stands that when thieves are stronger, trying to start war with them, fight them or attack them is suicide. This isnt 100 of you vs 10 of them. This is 10 of you vs 100 of them.

Ukraine has been fighting for 'some time now, despite the 'superpower of Russia.
No. Ukraine lost territory, and now the only way for you to defend whats left of Ukraine is to engage in attrition war which you are losing badly and wasting your military power and money to defend what cannot be successfully defended, enabling Russia to drain you.

I do not advocate for America to engage in plunder or aggressive war.
USA is right now doing genocide in Palestine and has killed more civilians in Palestine than Russia did in Ukraine. It also talks of invading some other countries.

So yeah, you can drop "we were bad a day ago, but now we are good" act.

Nobody is buying it.
#118
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,625
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Best.Korea
I thought we were specifically talking about thieves?
More broadly, Ukraine is practicing self defense, I'd say.

America and Europe has past agreements with Ukraine.
And an interest against such aggressions.

I do not consider Russia 10 times stronger than America.
. . .

I think Russia is doing worse in Ukraine than America.
I think Russia is worried about Ukraine war costs.
As Vietnam shows, territory on a map, isn't everything in war.
. . .

If you think Hamas are better people than America, well, I'll pass on discussing it.

I do not think Trump will be able to invade Canada or Greenland, he is not Dictator.
#119
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 393
Posts: 12,384
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Lemming
I thought we were specifically talking about thieves?
We are talking about Russia and USA, yes.

More broadly, Ukraine is practicing self defense, I'd say.
Thats not true. Ukraine would have more population if it didnt start an unwinnable war by bombing its own citizens in 2014.

America and Europe has past agreements with Ukraine.
And an interest against such aggressions
Ukraine is not an important ally. You dont get yourself killed over some irrelevant ally which you arent even sure if is really your ally. They can flip back to supporting Russia in the future. I mean, they were Russian anyway just 35 years ago.

I do not consider Russia 10 times stronger than America
Russia, China, Iran and North Korea have current military production rate 10 times that of entire NATO. Now add to that rest of BRICS which will turn to support Russia and China and abandon US dollar. Russian debt is only 14% of GDP, among lowest in the world.  USA debt is 128% of GDP, among highest in the world. USA was even forced to send Ukraine cluster bombs, because, to quote Biden: "we were running out of regular bombs". So if your leaders tell you that you are being drained that badly, what more do you need to know?
#120
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 393
Posts: 12,384
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Lemming
If you think Hamas are better people than America, well, I'll pass on discussing it.
No one mentioned Hamas.

As Vietnam shows, territory on a map, isn't everything in war.
The war only has 2 objectives: gain territory and gain military superiority and control to destroy enemy while you survive. Which one of these is Ukraine achieving?