A Simple Question about the Current US Economy

Author: Math_Enthusiast

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@Math_Enthusiast
Well I would hope mathematicians wouldn't be saying arbitrarily "this number is too large" without proof

For a non-mathematician, the concept of wealth generation being an exponential function is like speaking a foreign language.
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My proposals of professional investors aside, I think it's important to highlight just how massive 402 billion (Musk's net worth) actually is. A lot of people don't seem to understand just how much bigger billions, let alone hundreds of billions are than mere millions. Let's start with this:

  • One thousand seconds is 16 minutes and 40 seconds.
  • One million seconds is 11 days, 13 hours, 46 minutes, and 40 seconds.
  • One billion seconds is over 31 years and 8 months.
  • One hundred billion seconds is 3169 years.
  • Elon Musk's net worth, 402 billion dollars, in seconds, would be 12739 years. The human era–the period for which humans have been the dominant species on Earth–is estimated at around 12000 years, with the holocene calendar putting us in the year 12025.
This means that if you earned a dollar every second it would only take you 11 days to become a millionaire, you would make a few billion dollars in your lifetime, but to reach Musk's net worth you would have to be some kind of immortal being who started earning one dollar every second before mankind was even the dominant species on planet Earth, certainly long before those dollars that you were earning even existed. I really want to emphasize those numbers: 11 days to become a millionaire, 31 years to become a billionaire, 12739 years to match Elon Musk.
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@Math_Enthusiast
We would still have people like Elon Musk making investments and independently deciding how companies are run. 
You continue to make contradictory prescriptions:

“Only the government would make investments.”
“We would still have people like Musk making investments.”

Would you be able to outline exactly what it is you are prescribing? I need more than “Musk can keep doing what he’s doing. He will just be accumulating wealth at a more humane and reasonable rate.” (Not an exact quote)

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@Math_Enthusiast
This means that if you earned a dollar every second..
This is a linear function. Can you use a realistic function and calculate wealth generation with an exponential function?
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Lines are a good way to measure things. Yes, interest compounds. Gold star GP, you're very bright. 
Math_Enthusiast
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@Greyparrot
Well I would hope mathematicians wouldn't be saying arbitrarily "this number is too large" without proof

For a non-mathematician, the concept of wealth generation being an exponential function is like speaking a foreign language.

Math is a very abstract and rigorous field that doesn't generally deal with political questions. We are talking about a significant impact on the quality of people's lives while you are effectively asking how many grains of sand must be collected to mathematically constitute a "mound". "Large" isn't a well-defined term, and it doesn't need to be for one person having 1.61% of the US GDP in their hands to start having a significant negative impact on the rest of us.
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@Math_Enthusiast
Yes, and removing the incentives for the wealth generation that benefits an entire society of consumers can have devastating consequences for those who are in the middle of the bell curve, and much less consequence for those living at the extremes who can, as they say, just take their ball and go home.

It's the middle of that bell curve that suffers when you try to flatten it. Or as you put it "a significant negative impact"
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@Math_Enthusiast
  • Elon Musk's net worth, 402 billion dollars, in seconds, would be 12739 years. The human era–the period for which humans have been the dominant species on Earth–is estimated at around 12000 years, with the holocene calendar putting us in the year 12025.
How long will Elon Musk live with all those seconds added to his wealth?
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@cristo71
I believe economic policies should be more focused on providing opportunities for upward mobility and support for those struggling, rather than trying to equalize wealth by rewarding non-producers and punishing producers. There's no reason why we can't allow both individual success and collective well-being to coexist.
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@Greyparrot
This is a linear function. Can you use a realistic function and calculate wealth generation with an exponential function?
This wasn't intended to be a realistic way in which one might accumulate wealth. No one magically gets a dollar every second without doing anything. Also, the "dollar a second" thought experiment aside, the following are facts: one million seconds is about 11.5 days, one billion seconds is about 31 years and 8 months, one hundred billion seconds is over the length of the human era. I am not going to distort those objective facts by putting them on a logarithmic scale. I might also add that buying power does not function on a logarithmic scale. Ten times the money has ten times the buying power.
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@Math_Enthusiast
Ten times the money has ten times the buying power.
But Elon Musk did not buy Tesla orSpaceX. He created those companies.
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@cristo71

You continue to make contradictory prescriptions:

“Only the government would make investments.”
“We would still have people like Musk making investments.”

Would you be able to outline exactly what it is you are prescribing? I need more than “Musk can keep doing what he’s doing. He will just be accumulating wealth at a more humane and reasonable rate.” (Not an exact quote)
The underlined quote is not direct, and is misleading, since it implies that I would have only politicians be able to invest, something which I never said, so before I proceed, I will replace this with a statement that actually represents my beliefs:

"Only government employed professional investors would make investments."
"We would still have people like Musk making investments."

These statements aren't contradictory if people like Musk were government employees.
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@Shila
How long will Elon Musk live with all those seconds added to his wealth?

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. This was just a thought experiment comparing scale of wealth to scale of time. I'm not sure what Musk's life span or "adding seconds to wealth" has to do with this.

But Elon Musk did not buy Tesla orSpaceX. He created those companies.
You have made a true statement. It is beyond me how said statement is intended to counter my argument, though.
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@Math_Enthusiast
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. This was just a thought experiment comparing scale of wealth to scale of time. I'm not sure what Musk's life span or "adding seconds to wealth" has to do with this.
If you are comparing scale of wealth to scale of time. How much time does Elon Musk have when you compare it to his scale of wealth?
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@Greyparrot
There's no reason why we can't allow both individual success and collective well-being to coexist.
Limited resources. This is my entire issue with the current state of our economy: We have limited resources, and yet some people get to have private jets, and others, possibly of equal or greater intelligence, never even have the chance to get of the ground. Statistically speaking, of the 38 million Americans under the poverty line, at least one of them has the innate intelligence necessary to make some incredibly good investments, and yet you suggest that we shouldn't redirect the giant flow of wealth that billionaires have at their disposal to those 38 million Americans. You talk about the need for a strong incentive, but having the resources necessary to do something is a prerequisite for being motivated to do it.
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@Shila
If you are comparing scale of wealth to scale of time. How much time does Elon Musk have when you compare it to his scale of wealth?
Your wording is a little strange, but I'm assuming that you are asking what amount of time corresponds to Musk's quantity of wealth in my chosen scale. The answer to that is 12739 years, which was included in the original post.
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@Math_Enthusiast
having the resources necessary to do something is a prerequisite for being motivated to do it
Well, yes.

If you are born rich, it is almost impossible not to be rich for whole life.

Investments arent even a risk if you distribute investments properly. Its basically impossible for every company you invest in to fail unless you pick failing companies on purpose. Then there are basically guaranteed success options like gold which rises in value of at least 10% per year, so basically your money invested in gold more than doubles over 10 years.
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@Math_Enthusiast
If you are comparing scale of wealth to scale of time. How much time does Elon Musk have when you compare it to his scale of wealth?
Your wording is a little strange, but I'm assuming that you are asking what amount of time corresponds to Musk's quantity of wealth in my chosen scale. The answer to that is 12739 years, which was included in the original post.
What is the significance of that 12739 years when he will only live the normal lifespan?
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@Shila
What is the significance of that 12739 years when he will only live the normal lifespan?
12739 years is 402 billion seconds, and Elon Musk's net worth is 402 billion dollars. This isn't about his lifespan.
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@Math_Enthusiast
What is the significance of that 12739 years when he will only live the normal lifespan?
12739 years is 402 billion seconds, and Elon Musk's net worth is 402 billion dollars. This isn't about his lifespan.
So he cannot add 402 billion seconds to his life even though your calculation says it’s possible to convert his billions into years.
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@Math_Enthusiast
innovation is never a limited resource. Ever.
Shila
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innovation is never a limited resource. Ever.
But it has some limitations like it cannot extend a billionaires life.
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@Shila
So he cannot add 402 billion seconds to his life even though your calculation says it’s possible to convert his billions into years.
My calculation says that 12739 years is 402 billion seconds. It also says that you would therefore need 12739 years to reach Elon Musk's net worth if you theoretically made one dollar every second. It does not say that Musk can buy additional seconds to add to his lifespan.
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@Math_Enthusiast
So he cannot add 402 billion seconds to his life even though your calculation says it’s possible to convert his billions into years.
My calculation says that 12739 years is 402 billion seconds. It also says that you would therefore need 12739 years to reach Elon Musk's net worth if you theoretically made one dollar every second. It does not say that Musk can buy additional seconds to add to his lifespan.
But you said he was ahead by 12739 years. Now you are saying he cannot buy additional seconds to add to his lifespan. Is it because he is already ahead by 12739 years?
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@Math_Enthusiast
"Only government employed professional investors would make investments."
"We would still have people like Musk making investments."

These statements aren't contradictory if people like Musk were government employees.
Hmm… and if people like Musk don’t wish to be government employees?
Where does the investment capital come from?

And again:

Would you be able to outline exactly what it is you are prescribing? I need more than “Musk can keep doing what he’s doing. He will just be accumulating wealth at a more humane and reasonable rate.” (Not an exact quote)
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@Greyparrot
innovation is never a limited resource. Ever.
I was not referring to innovation. I was referring to material resources.
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@Math_Enthusiast
And the value of finite material resources relies solely on innovation, which is a limitless resource.

Example, an acre of farm 100 years ago produced x amount of food. today it produces 100x amount of food. 100 years from now, it could be 1000x
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And the value of finite material resources relies solely on innovation, which is a limitless resource.

Example, an acre of farm 100 years ago produced x amount of food. today it produces 100x amount of food. 100 years from now, it could be 1000x
Agriculture is not a natural resource. Land and water are.
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@Shila
But you said he was ahead by 12739 years.
This is blatantly false.
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@cristo71
Hmm… and if people like Musk don’t wish to be government employees?
Then instead of doing something that they are incredibly good at and therefore likely earning a very good salary they can get a job that they are bad at and earn a much smaller salary.

Where does the investment capital come from?
Taxpayers.

Would you be able to outline exactly what it is you are prescribing? I need more than “Musk can keep doing what he’s doing. He will just be accumulating wealth at a more humane and reasonable rate.” (Not an exact quote)
I said this in post #12:

I believe that people should be employed to make good investments, and the resulting large quantities of wealth should be controlled by the government and used for public interest. Is this fair to the investors? Well, they aren't doing anything more important than, say, doctors, so yes, it is absolutely fair, and the current "free market" system isn't fair to those who struggle to get enough to eat while Elon Musk buys private jets with money that could have fed hundreds of children for almost two decades.