Jesus = Fact

Author: 3RU7AL

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#151
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@Mopac
To use a parable, it is kind of like explaining going down a waterslide to a kid. It just doesn't do the experience justice. So i bring the child to the top of the big water slide, and they are too scared to go down. I am trying to coax a child into going down a waterslide so they can experience it for themselves, but they lack the faith to go through with it. I am not going to force the child down the waterslide. They refuse, and never know what it is like to go down the waterslide.
What a marvelously apt metaphor.

I find your insistence to filter everything through a logical framework to be crippling and not truly rational. I am sure that in your current state of mind, such an assertion must be truly baffling.
You should probably try to use a term other than "truly rational" since "rational" simply means "logical".  You could probably say something like, "unwise" which is somewhat more amorphous.

I'm sure that in your current state of mind, logic must be truly baffling.
#152
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@3RU7AL
No, I very intentionally used the word irrational because I knew it would jostle you a bit.

And I mean it!

It might be odd for you to think of me as a logical person, but I am a great deal more rational in my thinking that you can perhaps see at the moment.





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#153
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@Mopac
It might be odd for you to think of me as a logical person, but I am a great deal more rational in my thinking that you can perhaps see at the moment.
Well, we do seem to agree on "NTURTTGgTS" = "Noumenon, The Ultimate Reality, The Truth, [G]god, The Source".

And I believe we've pinpointed our divergence at "faith".
#154
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@PGA2.0
We have 19 EXTRA-BIBLICAL accounts or mentions of Jesus available to us today. That is in addition to the biblical accounts and the accounts of the early church fathers. 
I've done some digging to see where the number 19 comes from, and it seems that you must be including writings dating from hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.   In general the writers are telling their readers what it is that Christians believe; the writer does does not believe it himself.  

Typical is a letter written by Pliny the Younger to Trajan in AD 112 concerned with the treatment of Christians who recant.   The existence of Christianity is not in dispute, but Pliny's letter does not imply jesus could raise the dead or turn water into wine.  AD 112 is actually one of theearlier dates of such 'corroborative' material!

Without being sure what the 19 accounts are I can't discuss them.

As to OT prophesy, I think it is more reasonable to suppose that people can read (and copy from) the ancient texts than to suppose people could see into the future.



 
 


#155
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@3RU7AL
You yourself have faith, as do all. Not everyone likes to admit it, because secular religion has made it into a dirty word, and that is the religion that is being programmed into the population in these days. There was a time when socialism was understood as a religion, but that isn't very palatable to a society that identifies with another religion. So it is snuck in through other means.


That is why today, more than ever there is a great sympathy and embrqcing of socialism in the west. The people who run the UN are socialists. The schools have been teaching socialism since the 60s at least. It is a secular religion.

And if that seems way out there for you, feel free to ignore it.

But you certainly do have faith, you are just programmed to not acknowledge it. 
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#156
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@Mopac
But you certainly do have faith, you are just programmed to not acknowledge it. 
I have no blind faith.
#157
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@3RU7AL
Neither would I say that my faith is blind, but rather one of sincere conviction.
#158
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@Mopac
The waterslide exists. You are telling the child from atop a cliff with a hundred foot sheer drop that it's a waterslide.
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@Mopac
Isn't it strange that socialism ie a belief in equality of all, care for others, respect for your fellow man is allegedly what your god taught, but you hate that.
#160
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@disgusted
Socialism is a sneaky way for the elite to consolidate all wealth and power while enslaving the population. It is nothing but deceit. It tends to be very attractive to the lawless and wicked. Very attractive to materialists.


No idealogy in the history of mankind has lead to the death of more people, and in such a short amount of time. In socialist country, all are equally worthless.

Atheism and socialism go hand in hand which is why mass murdering Christians and persecuting the church is usually on the agenda of socialist countries.











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@Mopac
Americans are so indoctrinated by the capitalists laughing themselves to death. you just described the capitalists society you live in, but Americans are educated to a level of ignorance that is unassailable.
#162
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@disgusted
I am not a capitalist, but I understand that capitalism is a theory of how economics works while socialism is how billionaires trick people who think they are fighting them into making them even more powerful.

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@Mopac
Proof positive that you know nothing.
#164
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@disgusted
Keep telling yourself that, commie.
#165
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@disgusted
You have to ber in mind that the orthodox church suffered the sort of persecution under communism that the Jews did under Nazism.   mopac is not likely to be well-disposed to the left.

Historically socialism has always mutated into totalitarianism.  Every time socialism has been attempted it was hijacked by totalitarians who sold repression as a means to the end of establishing the socialist ideal; what happened next was that maintaining totalitarianism became an end in itself.  The regime uses the rhetoric of socialism to ensure the masses cannot and do not challenge the power of the elite - the very opposite of the 'spirit' of socialism.

   


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@Mopac
Commie says the deluded frightened numpty. that's fuckin' funny.
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#167
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@Mopac
Neither would I say that my faith is blind, but rather one of sincere conviction.
I have never doubted your sincerity.

I doubt your evidence.
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#168
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@Mopac
Capitalism is how billionaires trick people who think they are fighting them into making them even more powerful.
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#169
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@Mopac
Capitalism is a sneaky way for the elite to consolidate all wealth and power while enslaving the population. It is nothing but deceit. It tends to be very attractive to the lawless and wicked. Very attractive to materialists.
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#170
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@Mopac
Was the Jesus was a capitalist? - [Supply Side Jesus]
#171
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@3RU7AL
What do you need evidence of?


If you want to see clearly, take account the tool you are using to measure, make sure it is clean and in good condition.

Purify the heart.


#172
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@3RU7AL
As I said, I am not a capitalist. Obviously, Jesus was not a capitalist.

Socialism does not exist independent of capitalism. They are not opposites. Capitalism is a theory of how economics works. Socialism is a consolidation of power and  authority to the state. 

You want to sell all your things andlive in common on a commune? Our monastics do that! But they choose to do it. No one has a choice in socialist country. It is state enforced. And because Marx had a negative opinion of religion that seems to be shared by the adherents of socialism, socialist countries are overwhelmingly atheistic and are responsible for the murders of so many Christians that even the holocaust looks tiny in comparison. But on that note, a Nazi is a national socialist! 

As I said, this is the religion the powers that be are indoctrinating people with.


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#173
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@Mopac
Atheism and socialism go hand in hand which is why mass murdering Christians and persecuting the church is usually on the agenda of socialist countries.
A great many Theistic regimes killed their share of Christians as well, including other Christians.

For example, in 1564 Spanish Catholics killed French Huguenot Protestants in Florida specifically for not converting to Catholicism.

However, when Menéndez then demanded that they give up their Protestant faith and accept Catholicism, they refused. 111 Frenchmen were killed. Only sixteen were spared - a few who professed being Catholic, some impressed Breton sailors, and four artisans needed at St. Augustine.
Two weeks later the sequence of events was repeated. More French survivors appeared at the inlet, including Jean Ribault. On October 12 Ribault and his men surrendered and met their fate, again refusing to give up their faith. This time 134 were killed. From that time, the inlet was called Matanzas -- meaning "slaughters" in Spanish. [LINK]

Many Christians in general were killed. Ever hear of the Waldenses, the Paulicians, the Hutterites, Mennonites, Anabaptists, Moravians, Montanists, or Donatists? For 1500 years Catholocism has brutally slaughtered those who followed Jesus pacifistically while claiming the Bible as their sole rule of faith. 

Maybe it's the ones being killed while dying peacefully who are the true continuers of the Christian faith that all the apostles including Paul and Barnabas died for (save John, who died in prison), even as like Jesus, they forgave their enemies. [LINK]

The schisms of the Middle Ages and especially the Protestant Reformation, sometimes provoked severe conflicts between Christian denominations to the point of persecuting each other.

In the 20th century, Christians were persecuted by various governments including the Islamic Ottoman Empire in the form of the Armenian Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide and the Greek Genocide, as well as by atheistic states such as the Soviet Union and North Korea. [wiki]
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#174
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@Mopac
What do you need evidence of?If you want to see clearly, take account the tool you are using to measure, make sure it is clean and in good condition.Purify the heart.
I need to see your evidence of a link between noumenon and the "YHWH".

All of your "purify your heart and mind" stuff sounds exactly like the Bardo Thodol.

The Tibetan Taoists "purify their hearts and minds" all day and all night and they don't worship the "YHWH".
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#175
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@keithprosser
Historically socialism has always mutated into totalitarianism.
Historically, all societies have been a mix of socialism and capitalism.

Even in ancient monarchies where all land was owned by the king, people still made stuff and traded goods and services.
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#176
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@Mopac
Socialism does not exist independent of capitalism. They are not opposites.
Well stated.
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#177
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@disgusted
The waterslide exists. You are telling the child from atop a cliff with a hundred foot sheer drop that it's a waterslide.
Which cliff was it again?  How do you know this works, have you done it yourself?  Do I go head-first or feet-first?  Do I tuck my knees?  Do I have to scream, "Save Me Lordy" while I'm falling?  Can I jump later?  Can I change my mind half way down?
#178
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@3RU7AL
The church does not condone the murder and persecution of people for their beliefs. You attribute the actions of heretics to the church. You also attribute the actions of governments that persecuted the church at times to the church. This is a type of identity fallacy. Regardless, this is a deflectionary tactic to obscure the fact that socialist countries are by nature the enemy of the church because they consider religion to be a form of oppression equal to or greater than the guy who owns the sweat shop.

Noumenon is not God. The Ultimate Reality is God. YHWH refers to The Eternally Existing One. The Ultimate Reality. 

You speak without understanding. You are arguing against purifying the heart not because you know better. 

How is this even defensible? It should be an evident truth that information in the hands of a crooked mind is not going to be perceived as clearly as the same information to a straight mind.


And when I refer to the heart, this goes even beyond the mind but to the very intentions of a person.
#179
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Maybe it's the ones being killed while dying peacefully who are the true continuers of the Christian faith

One of the nicknames of The Orthodox Church is the church of martyrs.


Because we don't do the killing, we are the ones being killed.

Even persecuted by the heretics you mentioned.



#180
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@3RU7AL
I disagree - I think socialism and capitalism are opposites but no actual society has ever operated either exclusively or in pure form.  In the UK we have private ownership and landlordism but we also have the NHS.