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zedvictor4
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@DavidAZZ
Deception, suggestion and preconditioning.

I work in the healthcare industry, and faked illness is common.

Even Doctors are easily duped.

And if someone wants to believe in miracles, it wouldn't be difficult to dupe them. 


Fatima, Lourdes, Knock.

All big business.

And plenty of fools ready to part with their money.
DavidAZZ
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@zedvictor4
I work in the healthcare industry, 
Curious to know what you do in the field.

And if someone wants to believe in miracles, it wouldn't be difficult to dupe them.
So you are claiming this girl walked on a cane for months just to dupe people?
Shila
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@DavidAZZ
Another is that I saw the medical documents of an unborn baby's ultrasound that the doctor said the baby didn't have any kidneys.  The church prayed and the kid developed kidneys.  Another is an old lady in the church was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and was given 4 months max to live.  That was 2 years ago.  These can be explained away by someone who is skeptical but there are many more that don't involve medical issues but I use medical miracles since they can defy science.
If you are credible then those are medical miracles.
zedvictor4
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@DavidAZZ
People fake illness for a variety of reasons, and the use of props like walking aids and neck collars is popular.

I'm guessing that she didn't have a bad leg at all.

Just waited for the right moment to become the centre of attention and recover miraculously.
Stephen
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@DavidAZZ
What was the content of your rushed and mumbled prayer while also being  busy and preoccupied with your sound system?
Like I said, I used to run the sound equipment for the church so at the time, I had to use the same sound equipment from the church building out at the camp site.  So I was rushing right after service to start wrapping up cords, microphones, speakers, the soundboard, etc.  The next service was the next night at the camp, so I needed everything in order so I didn't have to make a trip back into town if I forgot something.  

You appear to have missed  my question. I asked for the content of the prayer you said for the girls leg.

Shila
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@zedvictor4
People fake illness for a variety of reasons, and the use of props like walking aids and neck collars is popular.

I'm guessing that she didn't have a bad leg at all.

Just waited for the right moment to become the centre of attention and recover miraculously.
This might explain why the people were not impressed by Jesus’s miracles.
John 10 :32-34 Jesus said, “At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?” They replied, “We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy!
SethBrown
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@WyIted
Well the biggest grain of salt to swallow when it comes to the miracle at Fatima is the variance in reporting. An Italian priest by the name of 
De Marchi made a collection of numerous reportings from people at the event writing about what they saw and collected them in his book (6) here are the reportings;

"The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceedingly swift and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat." —  Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the Catholic newspaper Ordem. (1)

"The silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy grey light, was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds [.. The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands [...] people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they." —  Reporter for the Lisbon newspaper O Dia. (2)

"The sun's disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body, for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl when suddenly a clamor was heard from all the people. The sun, whirling, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was terrible." —  De Marchi attributes this description to Almeida Garrett, Professor of Natural Sciences at Coimbra University.(6) Theologian Father Stanley L. Jaki wrote that it was actually given by José Almeida Garrett, a young lawyer, and is often mistakenly attributed to his father, a professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra,[3] named Gonçalo de Almeida Garrett.[4] (would like to note that it is understood if you want to discredit this account due to the disputing of source)

"As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendor. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent firewheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colors of the rainbow and sending forth multicolored flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes. The immense multitude, overcome by the evidence of such a tremendous prodigy, threw themselves on their knees." —  Manuel Formigão, a professor at the seminary at Santarém, and a priest. (6)

"I feel incapable of describing what I saw. I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes. Looking like a ball of snow, revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zig-zag, menacing the earth. Terrified, I ran and hid myself among the people, who were weeping and expecting the end of the world at any moment." —  Rev. Joaquim Lourenço, describing his boyhood experience in Alburitel, 18 kilometres (11 mi) from Fátima.(5)
(should be noted I excluded an account from a Afonso Lopes Vieira since it didn’t give any details over the event)
Here we can see the eye witnesses disagree on numerous things including the color, the sound (some described a sound and others omitted it, although this is expected with eye-witnesses accounts) this seems to be a mass-hallucination to me
Work cited: 
1 - De Marchi 1952b: 147
2 - De Marchi 1952b: 143
3 - Donal Anthony Foley. Marian Apparitions, the Bible, and the Modern World. Gracewing Publishing; 2002. ISBN 978-0-85244-313-2. pp. 404–.
4 - História da ciência na Universidade de Coimbra: 1772–1933. Imprensa da Universidade de Coimbra / Coimbra University Press; 2013. ISBN 978-989-26-0609-5. pp. 15–.
5 - De Marchi 1952b: 149
6- De Marchi 1952b: 143

Shila
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@SethBrown
Here we can see the eye witnesses disagree on numerous things including the color, the sound (some described a sound and others omitted it, although this is expected with eye-witnesses accounts) this seems to be a mass-hallucination to me.
What was revealed to them was based on their faith. The stronger the faith the more detailed the showing.
SethBrown
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@Shila
Well I ask how you came across this knowledge, and how is this claim falsifiable? It’s simply not falsifiable soo it’s not a valid hypothesis
Shila
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@SethBrown
Well I ask how you came across this knowledge, and how is this claim falsifiable? It’s simply not falsifiable soo it’s not a valid hypothesis
This is taken from the Bible. The stronger the faith in Jesus the better he was understood.
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@Shila
Okay and how is this claim falsifiable? And I don’t think understanding is equivalent to what you see in a hallucination 
Shila
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@SethBrown
Okay and how is this claim falsifiable? And I don’t think understanding is equivalent to what you see in a hallucination 
The individual eyewitness accounts are not falsifiable because the stronger their faith more was revealed to them. Faith is an individual experience.
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@Shila
I’m not asking if the eye-witnesses are falsifiable, I’m asking if the claim “what they saw were dependent on their faith” is falsifiable
Shila
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@SethBrown
I’m not asking if the eye-witnesses are falsifiable, I’m asking if the claim “what they saw were dependent on their faith” is falsifiable
They all described it as a miracle. Therefore faith was involved. Faith is an individual thing.
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@Shila
Shila I’m not asking if what they described is falsifiable. The statement you made “What was revealed to them was based on their faith.” is that falsifiable?
Shila
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@SethBrown
Shila I’m not asking if what they described is falsifiable. The statement you made “What was revealed to them was based on their faith.” is that falsifiable?
Faith is an individual thing. How can you prove it clouds their judgement?
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@Shila
Shila please re-read my question, that wasn’t what I was asking 
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@SethBrown
Shila please re-read my question, that wasn’t what I was asking 

Shila I’m not asking if what they described is falsifiable. The statement you made “What was revealed to them was based on their faith.” is that falsifiable?
What was revealed to them was based on their faith. Faith is an individual thing. How can you prove it clouds their judgement?
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@Shila
Saying you can’t prove it isn’t the same as saying it’s falsifiable, science doesn’t prove anything, instead it falsifies different hypothesis until it finds a hypothesis it can’t falsify. But then for a hypothesis to be considered you have to point out a way it could be falsified.
Shila
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@SethBrown
Saying you can’t prove it isn’t the same as saying it’s falsifiable, science doesn’t prove anything, instead it falsifies different hypothesis until it finds a hypothesis it can’t falsify. But then for a hypothesis to be considered you have to point out a way it could be falsified.

That is not what science says.
Increasingly, there is a tendency to assume that anything not scientifically proven is inherently false. According to the scientific method, a phenomenon is not considered scientific unless it is testable through empirical experimentation, which then determines its truth or falsity.
SethBrown
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@Shila
Yes there seems to be a tendency to deny anything not “scientifically proven” (although note as I stated earlier science doesn’t prove anything, simply because that’s not what science is, proving a mathematical idea, instead science either accepts or rejects ideas) 
a phenomenon is not considered scientific unless it is testable through empirical experimentation, which then determines its truth or falsity.
No a hypothesis is not considered scientific unless it is testable through empirical experimentation. Although the empirical experimentation doesn’t prove the hypothesis true or false, instead it simply either proves the hypothesis wrong or the hypothesis withstands through the experimentation and then after quite a few attempts to reject a hypothesis that have failed then that hypothesis is more accredited as likely to be true. Gravity isn’t even really “proven” yet it is just about as close to proven as any hypothesis can be in a scientific framework, which is why it’s called a theory. (Which I would also like to specify that a scientific theory isn’t the same thing as what a layman might mean when he says theory, instead a scientific theory is a hypothesis supported by an extremely large amount of empirical evidence, not just like someone throwing around a theory about their favorite tv show that has nothing or very little to back it up 
Shila
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@SethBrown
Gravity isn’t even really “proven” yet it is just about as close to proven as any hypothesis can be in a scientific framework, which is why it’s called a theory.What is the scientific proof for gravity?
An apple falling from a tree! That's all the proof you need – indeed everything falling to the ground tells us that gravity exists.
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@Shila
An apple falling from a tree doesn’t prove gravity, it simply proves that apples fall from trees, we don’t need science to prove that. What science does is it hypothesizes why it falls from the tree, not if it falls from the tree. And one of the hypothesis, and the most accepted one is gravity and that’s because it’s a hypothesis that has evidence supporting it and has never been disproven or “torn down” by the scientific method.

Shila
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@SethBrown
An apple falling from a tree doesn’t prove gravity, it simply proves that apples fall from trees, we don’t need science to prove that. What science does is it hypothesizes why it falls from the tree, not if it falls from the tree. And one of the hypothesis, and the most accepted one is gravity and that’s because it’s a hypothesis that has evidence supporting it and has never been disproven or “torn down” by the scientific method.
A falling apple led to the discovery of gravity.

Newton's discovery
The first written account appears in notes on Newton's life collected by John Conduitt in 1726, the year of Newton's death. It states that: "he first thought of his system of gravitation which he hit upon by observing an apple fall from a tree". The event occurred in the late summer of 1666.

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@Shila
Yes it did lead to the discovery of gravity, but it wasn’t the Apple falling that gave us the main understanding of gravity, instead gravity was simply a hypothesis to explain the experienced phenomenon. And the reason gravity is a valid hypothesis is that it’s falsifiable and yet all the attempts to falsify it have failed so the hypothesis has stood.
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@SethBrown
Yes it did lead to the discovery of gravity, but it wasn’t the Apple falling that gave us the main understanding of gravity, instead gravity was simply a hypothesis to explain the experienced phenomenon. And the reason gravity is a valid hypothesis is that it’s falsifiable and yet all the attempts to falsify it have failed so the hypothesis has stood.
But that was all that Newton saw, a falling apple.

A falling apple led to the discovery of gravity.

Newton's discovery
The first written account appears in notes on Newton's life collected by John Conduitt in 1726, the year of Newton's death. It states that: "he first thought of his system of gravitation which he hit upon by observing an apple fall from a tree". The event occurred in the late summer of 1666.


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@Shila
But that was all that Newton saw, a falling apple.
Does not follow that the apple proved gravity, nothing has proved gravity. There has been evidence that supported but not proved
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@SethBrown
But that was all that Newton saw, a falling apple.
Does not follow that the apple proved gravity, nothing has proved gravity. There has been evidence that supported but not proved
A falling apple led to the discovery of gravity.

Newton's discovery
The first written account appears in notes on Newton's life collected by John Conduitt in 1726, the year of Newton's death. It states that: "he first thought of his system of gravitation which he hit upon by observing an apple fall from a tree". The event occurred in the late summer of 1666.

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@Stephen
You appear to have missed  my question. I asked for the content of the prayer you said for the girls leg.
You're right.  I did miss it.  Sorry.

You are asking what did I say and or actions when I prayed?


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@DavidAZZ
the content of the prayer