Explaining why the alt right hates Indians and why the tech right loves them

Author: WyIted
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#1
WyIted
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There is some divide between the alt right and the tech right lately as indicated by a recent x post by Elon Musk


So the alt right hates indians because well you know they take all the jobs. 

Some might not understand why the tech right likes indians. Well the tech right is Indians. 

Many people don't realize this but Vivek Ramaswamy is Indian as are all of Musks employees as is JD Vance's wife. I hop this clears up why this divide exists for those of you who run in liberal circles and are unaware of this divide
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@ILikePie5
If you want to chime in on the current divide between the tech right and the alt right for no particular reason than feel free to do so. 
#3
Dr.Franklin
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This has absolutely nothing to do with Indians themselves and definitely not prom or jocks as Vivek was complaining about, but rather the complete destruction of the white middle class and replacement with H1-B's who are willing to be underpaid and overworked at the expense of American talent. 

If they really cared about getting talent into the country then there would be programs for Eastern European universities, whose students do remarkably well in STEM. But I haven't seen a lick of discourse about that because European work culture doesn't jive with the stated goal of Musk and co. which is to get "motivated" engineers, i.e corporate slaves.

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lacr3000
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@WyIted
This is an extremely specific online problem I had no clue the alt right hated Indian people
#5
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@WyIted
recent x post by Elon Musk
We're surprised that someone born in another country is hiring people from other countries? May as well say all of Elon Musk's American employees are stealing jobs from South Africans.
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@Dr.Franklin
underpaid and overworked
Compared to conditions in India, the wages they get in America are very good. If you value the white middle class more than foreigners, then say that. Don't pretend like you're going on some moral crusade on behalf of foreign laborers.
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I value the white middle class more than foreigners. Period.
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@WyIted
It's not very "America First", is it? Do you think Trump will do something about this divide? It seems like, from a MAGA perspective, the techbro-right opening the doors (wider) for foreign workers to replace American workers could be a slippery-slope into other industries.  And the techbro CEO's have a lot of incentive to see this through, they don't seem very concerned with "American First."
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@Savant
recent x post by Elon Musk
We're surprised that someone born in another country is hiring people from other countries? May as well say all of Elon Musk's American employees are stealing jobs from South Africans
Exactly, Elon Musk made all his money in America. Now he wants to tell Americans how to live.
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#10
WyIted
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It's not very "America First", is it? Do you think Trump will do something about this divide?
I don't think he will. It's natural to have a lot of divide in such a diverse group of people. Musk was brought on for a specific purpose and Musk and Rrump are ideologically similar when it comes to what he was brought on board for
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@Dr.Franklin
I value the white middle class more than foreigners. Period.
There's the "working class unity" I keep hearing about. Abandoned at the drop of a hat.
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@Shila
Elon Musk made all his money in America. Now he wants to tell Americans how to live.
He hasn't prevented any American from applying for a job or even working for another company.

Americans made money working for Musk. Now they want to tell him who to hire.
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#13
WyIted
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I think there is a fair criticism that these H1b1 visas drive down wages to a certain extent. 

If we think about America's best interest than maybe creating brain drain in developing nations helps us as a whole. 

However you always hear about the inferiority of Indian labor. Like try hiring an Indian web developer on fiverr and an American one and the Indian one will typically give inferior results. So does this apply to those who get the H1B1 Visas as well. Are we importing inferior labor? If we are than is it going to harm our infrastructure?

Somebody in Elon's comments posted his job postings for Jr engineers as well and they seemed to average around 80k. American Engineers our of college are typically making 6 figures, so it raises the question. Is there actually a shortage of engineers when you hear of grads struggling to get work? Or is this really about undercutting the market and hiring Indians who don't know better for 80k to do an inferior job to Americans who would cost you 150k? 
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@Savant
Elon Musk made all his money in America. Now he wants to tell Americans how to live.

He hasn't prevented any American from applying for a job or even working for another company.
Americans made money working for Musk. Now they want to tell him who to hire.
Elon Musk has laid off more than 6,000 people at Twitter since taking over the company, he told the BBC in a rare interview late Tuesday.
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@WyIted
I think there is a fair criticism that these H1b1 visas drive down wages to a certain extent. 
A lot of recent studies have challenged this assumption in the fields where immigrants work [1] [2]. And wages tend to go up in fields dominated by natives due to complements in production. Plus, most Americans own stock or benefit from lower prices, so driving down wages isn't a bad or good thing for everyone, it depends on what your field is. Then there's the long-term benefit of economies of scale and increased aggregate demand.

Is there actually a shortage of engineers when you hear of grads struggling to get work?
No, nor is a surplus an inevitable consequence of immigration. The number of jobs is not fixed, and there's no visible cap on innovation besides the labor force. There's no reason companies can't keep inventing new technology for the foreseeable future, or that people can't start companies to match the increase in labor.

Elon Musk has laid off more than 6,000 people at Twitter
And they can still apply to work at another company. Elon isn't preventing that.
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@Savant
USA = Greatest number of migrants

USA = Greatest in technology

Migrants bring in money, labor, some even start buisnesses of their own. Most importantly, they bring in knowledge which USA needs for technological advancement.

Maybe if USA had high IQ like Japan, maybe it wouldnt need migrants, but as it stands right now, USA needs migrants due to both knowledge and low birth rates.
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@Best.Korea
USA = Greatest number of migrants

USA = Greatest in technology

Migrants bring in money, labor, some even start buisnesses of their own. Most importantly, they bring in knowledge which USA needs for technological advancement.

Maybe if USA had high IQ like Japan, maybe it wouldnt need migrants, but as it stands right now, USA needs migrants due to both knowledge and low birth rates.
Elon Musk is a good example of how migrants are making America prosperous.
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WyIted
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@Savant
A lot of recent studies have challenged this assumption in the fields where immigrants work
I'd have to actually dig into the details of that to completely buy it. I have seen several studies the other direction as well. You say these are recent though and most of the studies I have memorized (the abstracts anyway) are probably several years old. 

I tend to agree with the Marxists though on some of these overlapping economic conclusions. Such as the phrase "labor shortages", typically means "I don't like having to pay high salaries and provide good working conditions" . I saw the word shortage a lot before their was a mass influx and a subsequent wage depression of software engineers. The same thing has happened in Trucking and with Nursing, though their wages remained stagnat as a result, and weren't lowered like with software engineers. If you consider inflation than as soon as the trucking and nursing industry made an effort to lower the average age of drivers and strongly encourage Haitians women into nursing than the wages were reduced. 

There are so many industries though that this may be limited to just the few I pay attention to. If the H1B1 visas are stuff like nuclear engineer and heart surgeon, I could see those very specialized areas not having an impact on average salary. 

most Americans own stock or benefit from lower prices, so driving down wages isn't a bad or good thing for everyone, it depends on what your field is.
I am going into Cyber security so I just don't want to compete with more people TBH, but yes it's a mixed bag as far as winners and losers are concerned

Then there's the long-term benefit of economies of scale and increased aggregate demand.
I just know supply and demand. I know economists tend to think things can grow indefinitely and I disagree. I usually just look at supply and demand and my gut tells me that is all I need to know.  Lower the supply of workers and then demand usually increases so price comes up in my paycheck. Increase demands for jobs and when employees outnumber jobs than salaries are low. 

I assume that's why housing prices are rising. An increase of the population due to immigration since we are below replacement levels, means more demand for less supply so now it cost 500k to move into a shack
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I assume that's why housing prices are rising. An increase of the population due to immigration since we are below replacement levels, means more demand for less supply so now it cost 500k to move into a shack

Assuming their take-home wages are around 21% of the economic value of what they produce for the businesses they work for – like workers in similar entry-level jobs in restaurants and construction – then immigrants added a total of $2.2 trillion to the U.S. economy yearly.
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@WyIted
I just know supply and demand. I know economists tend to think things can grow indefinitely and I disagree.
This is probably our biggest point of disagreement. With just supply and demand, how do you account for long-term growth, development of technology over time, etc? Why are workers much more efficient today than in centuries past? In the short-term, you can optimize the allocation of widgets, but some allocations allow for more technological growth and efficiency in the future.

I assume that's why housing prices are rising. An increase of the population due to immigration since we are below replacement levels, means more demand for less supply so now it cost 500k to move into a shack
I'll concede that as a case where the market doesn't adapt as fast in the short-term if the housing market isn't managed well. That said, there are countries that manage to sustain the increase, Israel being one of them. And again, it's a mixed bag in terms of winners and losers. Long-term population growth allows cheaper labor for construction and more apartments/houses/living quarters to be built as a result. And people who own homes can get a better price for them in the short-term. If the value of real estate plummets, there will also be winners and losers, and people will complain that the economy is doing terribly. I know you can cherry-pick the effects of immigration (especially short-term) and find negative impacts for some people, I'm just not convinced those impacts remain negative in the aggregate.
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I'm not a marxist
#22
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@Dr.Franklin
Sure. When it comes to economic disputes, everyone's got a different idea of what the "teams" are. Just don't expect the white middle class to be as loyal to you as you are to them.
#23
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@Savant
. If the value of real estate plummets, there will also be winners and losers, and people will complain that the economy is doing terribly. I know you can cherry-pick the effects of immigration (especially short-term) and find negative impacts for some people, I'm just not convinced those impacts remain negative in the aggregate.
Immigrants drive up the demand for housing. Thereby creating a shortage of availability and hence followed by price increases.
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#24
WyIted
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I am a big supporter of Israel but they have been expanding into Palestinian territories which could explain why housing has decreased. They are a very social aggressive people. Like I would never move where I am unwanted but the Jews are just aggressive like that. When I was in Ohio it was funny there was just like almost this Jewish Island surrounded by nothing but ghetto. Whites would have just moved away. Anyway, I think that may explain their housing situation a bit. Just pushing outwards with a complete disregard for their own safety.

This is probably our biggest point of disagreement. With just supply and demand, how do you account for long-term growth, development of technology over time, etc? Why are workers much more efficient today than in centuries past? In the short-term, you can optimize the allocation of widgets, but some allocations allow for more technological growth and efficiency in the future.
I think we agree here actually. On those points. I just don't know that we should be assuming that growth is permanent. We are seeing the end of Moores law but they are making some adjustments in AI that seem to be continuing Moores law for a while. I am not sure how long that can last. 

Some of my background is in Marxism and they talk about how flooding labor for example in American agriculture can actually stifle technological development in those areas because the market pressures to need those advancements just go away. 

I also am keeping my arguments very narrow. I haven't really taken a position other than that I believe H1B1s can depress wages, due to supply and demand. 

I haven't taken a position on whether we should do anything to alter those programs. I am not sure if they bring more good than harm. My gut tells me it helps the United States but harms India for example, to steal all their best talent. It's definitely good for us in the short term, but I also would like to see other countries prosper. 

I also wonder about how many people like me that slip through the Cracks. I have a 160 IQ but am a highschool drop out and had to work 2 jobs to support a family. What if instead of H1B1s there could have been some program to recognize somebody like that who could theoretically cure cancer. 

Lets also not forget that people like me can be very dangerous. Stupid people can be dangerous sure, but that danger is limited. If we have a shortage of talent then could it be better for society to start banging on doors in the ghetto and then forcing everyone to take an IQ test and then being precise about what we train these people in, and we can be because their options are limited. 

I Don't know it's just thought experiments at the moment
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@Shila
shortage of availability and hence followed by price increases
If the price increase reaches equilibrium it's not technically a shortage. That aside, why is a lower price "better" overall? It's better for buyers, sure, but also worse for sellers.
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@WyIted
My gut tells me it helps the United States but harms India for example, to steal all their best talent
Visa incentives in the past have actually helped developing countries by encouraging more people in those countries to pursue higher-paying careers. For example, a US visa expansion for medical professionals resulted in an increase in the number of nurses in the Philippines. One analysis found a similar effect in India's IT industry due to the H-1B visa. Workers can also be more efficient in richer countries.
#27
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@Savant
If the price increase reaches equilibrium it's not technically a shortage. That aside, why is a lower price "better" overall? It's better for buyers, sure, but also worse for sellers.
Demand for housing contributes to the economy.
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@Shila
That would be a positive effect of immigration. From your comments, I'm not sure what your position is, so we might agree.
#29
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@Savant
That would be a positive effect of immigration. From your comments, I'm not sure what your position is, so we might agree.

immigrants added a total of $2.2 trillion to the U.S. economy yearly. They are a great asset.
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@Shila
If you include the U.S.-born children of immigrants, immigrants constitute about 28%.of USA population.

Illegals only support social security, which is slated to run out of money anyway.