Why are people against whippings for crimes?

Author: RemyBrown

Posts

Total: 25
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 342
2
2
4
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
2
2
4
All I've heard from people is that it's cruel punishment (whether a punishment happens to be unusual is irrelevant if it's not unjustly cruel).

What I would argue is cruel punishment is forcing the taxpayer to pay for the living expenses of Person A (who did something bad) because Person A did something bad (totally out of the taxpayer's control).

So I'd rather whip them.  Saving taxpayer money (indefinite) matters more than reducing prisoner pain (short term and recoverable).  If I punch you, then you will recover  If I steal $500 from you, then you will always be $500 poorer than if I never stole the $500 from you.

Saving money matters more than reducing suffering.  To disagree with this is leftist; otherwise how are libertarians different from leftists on anything economic?  
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@RemyBrown
Eh, the best way to deal with crime is to prevent it.

Also, most criminals would prefer whipping to prison due to butt rape which happens sometimes in prison.

Whipping hurts, but butt rape hurts too.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,146
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Best.Korea
Eh, the best way to deal with crime is to prevent it.

Also, most criminals would prefer whipping to prison due to butt rape which happens sometimes in prison.

Whipping hurts, but butt rape hurts too.
So butt rape should be a bigger deterrent than whipping?
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 342
2
2
4
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
2
2
4
-->
@Best.Korea
Fine; I'm not a sadist for Adulterers and DUI holders; I don't enjoy their pain; I can tolerate them being in pain (to save money).

But whippings produces pain for 3 days; jail produces pain for 3 months.
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 2,116
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@RemyBrown
They can still reoffend.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@RemyBrown
I’m all for improvements to our criminal justice system, but I don’t think this is the alternative we should be looking at. I have a feeling it won’t help reform criminals either. Seems pretty cruel and unusual for all but the most heinous of crimes.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Mharman
I’m all for improvements to our criminal justice system
Everyone is for improvements. I have never heard someone say he doesnt want improvements.

Yet no improvements happen. Conclusion: everyone is delusional or liar.

Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Savant
They can still reoffend.
They can reoffend in prison too, usually in form of butt rape or beating or theft.

Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Shila
So butt rape should be a bigger deterrent than whipping?
Deterrent theory is scientifically unproven. Countries which have harsh punishments are even doing worse in terms of preventing crime than countries with weak sentences.

If deterrent theory was true, then when country introduces harsher punishments, you would see a proportional reduction in rate of new offenders, but you dont see that.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@Best.Korea
I’m not gonna bother dealing with you.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Mharman
Pleasure.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@RemyBrown
I’m going to research private prisons. They make up 8% of US prisons and I have a feeling they are better at everything compared to public prisons.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,146
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Best.Korea
Deterrent theory is scientifically unproven. Countries which have harsh punishments are even doing worse in terms of preventing crime than countries with weak sentences.

If deterrent theory was true, then when country introduces harsher punishments, you would see a proportional reduction in rate of new offenders, but you dont see that.
How effective is deterrence?


General deterrence

What does the evidence say? The short version: There's very little evidence that general deterrence works, likely because most people don't expect to be caught if they break the law and don't know what the punishment will be if they are caught.

Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 2,116
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@Best.Korea
They can do those things out of prison, too, but they're not surrounded by armed guards.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,841
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Shila
How effective is deterrence?
If we bring back the guillotine, that is a deterrent, with the guillotine there are very few repeat offenders.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 5,900
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
The Problem

The criminal justice system in the United States disproportionately harms many marginalized communities. African Americans at just below 13% of the population according to the census 2022 census, are approximately 40% of the United States prison population (Walmsley, 2003) most of which are men.
There are those who may argue that if a population of people violate more laws than the general population, that those people should be punished at a disproportionate rate. However, this misses the point that these disproportionate sentences have devastating effects on not just the inmates themselves, but to those close to them and by extension society.

There are about 3 black men for every 5 black women in society (Maciag 2019). These gender imbalances can be devastating to the communities that experience them. Women in communities with large male emigration are negatively affected by taking on the roles traditionally placed on males, and increasing their anxiety (Ullah, 2017).

When fathers are arrested it has even worse effects than emigration, because emigration also typically comes with an increase in household income and more regular communication. Single mothers are significantly more likely to live in poverty (census 2022) and face half the annual income of 2 parent households according to statistics gathered by payscale.com.

Fatherless homes are statistically more likely to result in children with behavioral issues and criminal behavior (Weaver and Schofield, 2015), children that are abused (Alan Daly, 2007), and that suffer academically (Potter, 2010). This positive correlation with fatherless homes and its effects on creating children statistically more likely to become criminals who go on to create fatherless homes, creates a circular feedback loop.

It's not just women and children who are harmed by losing so many men from their communities. We all likely have seen the firsthand effects of crime, or at least seen the effects on those close to us. Anything we can do to interrupt the feedback loop of incarceration creating criminals would benefit society.
The criminals themselves are harmed in the current system. As much as we need to punish people who break the law, we also need to create a system that better allows those same criminals to become better citizens, to be better fathers, and better husbands.
When a person goes to prison for any significant length of time, it leaves a gap in their employment history that is hard to overcome. A person receiving a 5-year prison sentence will not be able to financially support their family while in prison, cannot gain new skills in their chosen field and that is on top of the stigma of having a criminal record.

If somebody made a decent income from their criminal activities, it may just make more sense to continue a life of crime. Even somebody who didn’t make good money from criminal activities has now acquired a network of criminals who can help them with tips, tricks and connections to people who can help them make a good living from crime. There is a reason that prison is often referred to as “Felon University”.

Thesis

Judicial corporal punishment would punish criminals without harming society by taking them from their families and communities. There is already a road map on how to implement judicial corporal punishment, and we can Americanize the system and implement it in a voluntary way to handle any ethical objections.

Course of Action

Judicial corporal punishment (JDC) is the caning of criminals (in this context). This is something already occurring in 28 countries, but most famously in Singapore. The American version of this practice will and should look different than it does in any other country, but we can look to Singapore as a bit of a guide, since they have done a lot of the work in implementing judicial corporal punishment (JDC), in an ethical way.

Judicial corporal punishment can take the place of sentencing, potentially saving taxpayers billions of dollars that go to into the criminal justice system. But more importantly it can prevent prison sentences that contribute to the feedback loop of criminality, and that contribute to the inmate himself getting involved in a miniature loop of criminality on a personal level as well, with so many options being lost due to doing time.
We are going to take the basics of the Singapore method and then expand them to fit our society. According to section 325 to section 332 in the Singapore criminal procedure code, caning can only be done a maximum of 24 strokes. The caning can only be done to a person between the ages of 18 and 50 and must be approved of by a medical professional.

In the U.S.A we should also have a medical professional on hand to supervise the caning and who has the ultimate authority on whether a caning should proceed, be stopped or be paused. This is to mitigate any immediate harms.

We also must make JDC a completely voluntary punishment and it would not be offered to criminals too dangerous to enter society, such as serial killers. It wouldn’t be offered to people too unhealthy to withstand the punishment. It is an option for those who made a mistake, deserve a second chance and who want to mitigate the harm their punishment causes to their family, their communities and themselves.

Challenges

One of the most common challenges to JDC, is that it violates the constitutional mandate that the government should not engage in cruel or unusual punishment. I would argue that punishing the family of the offender instead of just him is cruel and unusual punishment. I think a lot of people see long sentences for people who are addicted and need treatment for substance abuse as more cruel and unusual treatment for a medical condition than 5 lashes with a cane that is over in less than 10 minutes, the healing in about 2 weeks (Farrel). The current system is cruel and unusual punishment, for both the criminal and society.

I have heard rebuttals that say, Judicial corporal punishment is going to easy on offenders. Here are descriptions of the punishment from those who have suffered from it before:

"I stumbled to an adjacent room and plonked myself down. For the next three weeks (I) slept with my face down. (I) could neither eat or sleep properly. For the first week, I couldn't even sleep. The pain was unbearable. It took more than a month for the wounds to dry. My buttocks didn't look normal after that, with the skin drooping and the scars." (Sam)

Another person caned stated: "(After the caning) I couldn't sit down or lie on my back for a week. (Going to the toilet) was the worst of all [...] I could not squat or even bend my knees. I got scared every time I got the urge [...] I tried not eating but this did not work. I still had to go and I had to do this standing up, holding my buttocks wide apart. (This lasted) one week then things came back to normal." (Ah Seng - 5 strokes).

This punishment may be more humane than a long prison sentence, but it is still harmful enough to be a very strong deterrent to criminal activity and one that satisfies the public’s desire to punish criminal activities.

Another common rebuttal is that JDC isn’t a real deterrent because children having corporal punishment used on them often are less well behaved than children receiving alternative forms of punishment. Ignoring the fact that most studies cited confirming this view conflate abusive and non-abusive forms of corporal punishment, we can look at recidivism rates in countries that use JDC.

In the United States 50% of people released from prison will reoffend within their first 3 years out (Benecchi, 2021). While Singapore has a recidivism rate of about 20% according to statista.com. This recidivism rate is not special to Singapore as other societies that use JDC, such as Brunei and the United Arab Emirates have similar success. There may be other factors playing into recidivism rates in those countries, but I would have a hard time thinking that JDC could possibly make recidivism rates any worse than they currently are.

Most ethical concerns by critics of JDC have been mitigated by how the proposal has taken them into account and “Americanized” this form of corporal punishment. However, it is worth going over them more clearly here. It is argued that it can be medically dangerous. This has been mitigated by not only setting age limits, and having medical clearance but having a medical professional with ultimate authority on stand by while the punishments are being administered.

The ethical concern of putting somebody through such physical punishment is mitigated by the fact that this is completely voluntary. If somebody prefers 10 years in prison to 10 reminders of their crime in the form of scars, they are free to make that choice. This is not something meant to ever be forced.

Conclusion

The solution to the biggest problems caused by the current justice system is to add judicial corporal punishment to mitigate the current harms that play into the criminal feedback loop. There is already a system in place, getting fantastic results we can use.

There will be many strong skeptics and opponents to changing the criminal justice system in this radical way. Those claiming the punishment is too soft on the right side of the political spectrum will change their mind when challenged to voluntarily accept the punishment and certainly be happy when they see safer streets from the loop of criminality being interrupted. Those on the left inclined to see this sort of punishment as overly harsh, will most certainly change their mind when children no longer go without their father, and when social programs can be rolled back due to the decreased poverty because of fewer single parents.

References

“U.S. Census Bureau Quickfacts: United States.” Census.Gov, United States Census Bureau, 1 July 2022, www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045222.

Walmsley, Roy. World prison population list. London: Home Office, 2003. http://www.prisonstudies.org/sites/prisonstudies.org/files/resources/downloads/wppl_10

Maciag, Mike. “Where Have All the Black Men Gone?” Governing, Governing, 21 Apr. 2021, www.governing.com/archive/gov-black-men-gender-imbalance-population.html.

Ullah, A. A. (2017). Male Migration and ‘Left–behind’ Women: Bane or Boon? Environment and Urbanization ASIA, 8(1), 59–73. https://doi.org/10.1177/0975425316683862

U.S. Census Bureau. Poverty Status, Food Stamp Receipt, and Public Assistance for Children Under 18 Years by Selected Characteristics: 2022
“2023 Gender Pay Gap Report (GPGR).” Payscale, Payscale, 13 Mar. 2023, www.payscale.com/research-and-insights/gender-pay-gap/.

Jennifer M. Weaver, and Thomas J. Schofield, “Mediation and Moderation of Divorce Effects on Children’s Behavior Problems,” Journal of Family Psychology 29, no. 1 (2015): 39, 43, 45.

Allen, S., & Daly, K. (2007). The effects of father involvement: An updated research summary of the evidence. Guelph: Father Involvement Research Alliance.

D. Potter, “Psychosocial Well-Being and the Relationship Between Divorce and Children's Academic Achievement,” Journal of Marriage and Family 72, (2010): 933, 940-941

Farrel, C. “Judicial Caning in Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei.” CORPORAL PUNISHMENT RESEARCH: JUDICIAL CANING IN SINGAPORE, MALAYSIA AND BRUNEI, www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#healing. Accessed 1 Oct. 2023.

Benecchi, Liz. “Recidivism Imprisons American Progress.” Harvard Political Review, 8 Aug. 2021, harvardpolitics.com/recidivism-american-progress/.


WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 5,900
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Savant
See above argument from debate. https://www.debateart.com/debates/4970-judicial-corporal-punishment
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,146
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Sidewalker
How effective is deterrence?
If we bring back the guillotine, that is a deterrent, with the guillotine there are very few repeat offenders.
And very few criminals survived to repeat their crime. Total deterrent.
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 342
2
2
4
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
2
2
4
-->
@Savant
This is a constant.  My sole concern is cost.  Whippings are cheaper than 3 months of taxpayer funded rent.
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 342
2
2
4
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
2
2
4
-->
@Mharman
For me, the concern is virtually purely financial.
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 342
2
2
4
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
2
2
4
-->
@WyIted
The criminal justice system in the United States disproportionately harms many marginalized communities.
I don't care about black strangers (or any strangers); a black r@pist deserves to be executed even if blacks are more likely to r@pe.

However, this misses the point that these disproportionate sentences have devastating effects on not just the inmates themselves, but to those close to them and by extension society.
Don't care; children don't deserve a r@pist father.

There are about 3 black men for every 5 black women in society
You provide no link.

Single mothers are significantly more likely to live in poverty (census 2022) and face half the annual income of 2 parent households according to statistics gathered by payscale.com.
Don't marry a r@pist or murderer (same with trailer park trash).

When a person goes to prison for any significant length of time, it leaves a gap in their employment history that is hard to overcome. 
Alright; so the penalty for DUI can be whippings.

We also must make JDC a completely voluntary punishment and it would not be offered to criminals too dangerous to enter society, such as serial killers. 
Those people you just behead without expensive painkillers; their pain doesn't matter; my tax money matters more.  Disagreeing with that is leftist.

It wouldn’t be offered to people too unhealthy to withstand the punishment.
The health of criminals doesn't matter.  Grow a pair.

"I stumbled to an adjacent room and plonked myself down. For the next three weeks (I) slept with my face down. (I) could neither eat or sleep properly. For the first week, I couldn't even sleep. The pain was unbearable. It took more than a month for the wounds to dry. My buttocks didn't look normal after that, with the skin drooping and the scars." (Sam)

Another person caned stated: "(After the caning) I couldn't sit down or lie on my back for a week. (Going to the toilet) was the worst of all [...] I could not squat or even bend my knees. I got scared every time I got the urge [...] I tried not eating but this did not work. I still had to go and I had to do this standing up, holding my buttocks wide apart. (This lasted) one week then things came back to normal." (Ah Seng - 5 strokes).
Anecdotes; these "men" should stop bitching like little girls.  

Another common rebuttal is that JDC isn’t a real deterrent because children having corporal punishment used on them often are less well behaved than children receiving alternative forms of punishment. Ignoring the fact that most studies cited confirming this view conflate abusive and non-abusive forms of corporal punishment, we can look at recidivism rates in countries that use JDC.
I would have no problem whipping kids; it beats spending tax money taking care of them.  

But we largely agree, but leave race out of your arguments; I don't care if a penalty disproportionally harms white people or under the bed people.
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,440
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@RemyBrown
One could argue that whipping has potential to be abused or normalized by accepting or encouraging it as a governmental punishment.
Whether by parents, schools, or goverment.
It is not a 'long punishment, as prison is, there lies the potential. It can quickly be dispensed, at 'seemingly no permanent harm.
Perhaps it would be more freely used.
Some objections to it, I'd think are the degradation, humiliation, lack of respect.

Who would pass the sentence? Who would administer the sentence?
Think of the racism in earlier American days, some argue still here, but 'less than there used to be I imagine.
How 'ready some people would be to use said punishment.

Is pain and brute force, the 'ideal?
Does a person learn why not to commit an action by such?
Do they get out of their circumstances that 'led them to choose their crime?
Or do they learn another is more powerful, and that such action is acceptable in life? Are they encouraged to emulate their own whipping against others?



Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 2,116
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@RemyBrown
My sole concern is cost.
Then cut government spending to zero. That minimizes cost, and you don't care about anything else.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Savant
They can do those things out of prison, too, but they're not surrounded by armed guards.
There is plenty of rape and violence in prison, so being "surrounded by armed guards" doesnt change anything.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,075
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@WyIted
One of the most common challenges to JDC, is that it violates the constitutional mandate that the government should not engage in cruel or unusual punishment
Prison is more cruel to some by far lol