Albums Mafia: Track Three

Author: Cerulean

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#211
Lunatic
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@whiteflame
 You must be right that Casey had both a 1X Cop and a 1X Tracker, the former of which you couldn’t possibly know. Just because Casey had 6 roles does not mean that they had these two specific roles, and the notion that I somehow have to prove that Casey didn’t have them is fucking baffling. 

It's really not that baffling. Your claiming a secondary JOAT with a CC of an ability used by a confirmed dead JOAT. Naturally any strong PR claims coming out in LYLO are suspicious, its doubly suspicious because a JOAT is confirmed to exist already. Obviously you can't prove anything, just like I can't prove that casey had a tracker ability outside of knowing that he did because it was the night action I used. But trying to pretend you don't have the burden to try and convince people to just take your word for it is absolutely insane. Come on WF, you know what I am saying is true. You acting as if people are just supposed to take your word for this is completely ridiculous.

It’s even more baffling to me that, assuming Casey did have these two roles, a hidden role (the Cop) was a basis for making a player a Miller. Again: has anyone ever heard of a single game where a hidden role on a JOAT became the entire basis for a negative utility role in that same game to exist? No one has answered this, yet Luna’s point is absolutely banking on it being true.
THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR DOING THO. You are claiming a 1x cop. You are also suggesting that a miller exists for you, an apparent 1x cop. How are you missing this point?!?!??!?!
#212
Lunatic
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@Mharman
@Cerulean
I dont need an extension but I'll approve a vote for it if mharman needs it. I've said all there really needs to be said and laid out my case against whiteflame as best I can. 
#213
Mharman
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@Cerulean
Sure why not. Extension is fine
#214
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Last thing I’m going to say in response to Luna. This behavioral sus is very WIFOM. Of course I’d kill Earth because he was sussing me because… I guess it was really bad when he called me out that one time for over specifying. Of course the  back-and-forth where I hopped off WyIted’s lynch and considered whether to hop back the next day was all a ruse to… somehow look less scummy when he hammered himself. This all reads like reaching and he’s doing it while ignoring the fact that I wasn’t the only one on WyIted’s lynch, yet I was also clearly the most hesitant to stay there. And all this is especially convenient of a position for someone to take who was only lightly involved in the first two DPs.

And yes, of course he’d rather discard the mechanics of the game, the major points he has had no response for this entire DP. Note that mechanics are the only means by which he can make any sense of his case for using a Tracker role and for Casey having a Cop, but suddenly, that’s all secondary. Anyone else going to call that out? Because I will. 
#215
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@Lunatic
THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR DOING THO. You are claiming a 1x cop. You are also suggesting that a miller exists for you, an apparent 1x cop. How are you missing this point?!?!??!?!
Apparently, one more response is necessary.

What‘a different - and I’ve said this so many times it’s starting to lose all meaning - is that the existence of a HIDDEN COP as the entire basis for the existence of a Miller role is the problem. Not the existence of ANY COP. Please, if you’re going to respond to me, at least respond to the whole point rather than cherry-picking words out that don’t help your case. Also, please note again, my case allows for the possible existence of a hidden Cop, it just doesn’t bank entirely on that being the sole reason for the Miller to exist. Again, can you find a single game where a Miller existed for solely this purpose? I’ll wait.
#216
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@whiteflame
Apparently, one more response is necessary.

What‘a different - and I’ve said this so many times it’s starting to lose all meaning - is that the existence of a HIDDEN COP as the entire basis for the existence of a Miller role is the problem. Not the existence of ANY COP. Please, if you’re going to respond to me, at least respond to the whole point rather than cherry-picking words out that don’t help your case.
I don't see how it being hidden makes a difference at all. It's a JOAT with 6 freaking abilities. That's powerful af regardless of whether the abilities are known or unknown, and you can generally infer for the most part what the abilities do, IE how I figured out one was investigative based on it's title. 

Also, please note again, my case allows for the possible existence of a hidden Cop, it just doesn’t bank entirely on that being the sole reason for the Miller to exist. Again, can you find a single game where a Miller existed for solely this purpose? I’ll wait.
Again this literally applies to your claim too.. smh we are talking in circles at this point. We know a miller exists, and if you aren't lying then you should know for a fact that this game literally has a miller to counter a 1x cop, because that is exactly what you are claiming. The amount of WIFOM you expect people to believe that it should only apply towards clearing you and not apply to the KNOWN FLIPPED JOAT in the graveyard is absolutely insane. You have to know you are making an insane point here. I feel insane for even responding to you and encouraging this blapshemous behavior from you lol. I know you are just trying to win, but I actually admire the length you are going to WIFOM here. Maybe you are hoping no one is reading this exchange? Probably. That's why I've been ignoring most of this crap. I happen to have the time and am bored so I am indulging in it because there is nothing better to do, but seriously this argument is so redudant. 
#217
ILikePie5
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Okay, so no quick hammer yet, so it’s confirmed that one of Luna/WF is scum. I’ll stop at Bucees for gas, read everything one more time and make a decision, hit from what I’ve read so far, I think im the swing vote
#218
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@Mharman
Yep, no hammer makes it clear at least one is scum, although ruling out a Pie/Mharman team wasn't particularly helpful anyway.

To Pie and Mhar: what do you want the voting order of the remaining players to be?
#219
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@AustinL0926
Not sure. I’ll let one of you two be the decider.
#220
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@ILikePie5
@AustinL0926
To be honest, I’m leaning toward Pie to be the last because I don’t like a lot of the things you’ve been doing in my retrospective analysis, Austin.

I’m not 100% committed to that read yet, but one of you two is town. When I am done thinking through all this, I will pick the townier one between the two of you.
#221
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@ILikePie5
@AustinL0926
You know what? I don’t like the idea of one of you voting, only to be wrong while the other quick hammers.

I haven’t decided which of you will should go last, but I’m going to go first.
#222
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This means I’m betting on myself to make to right call btw
#223
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@Lunatic
Well, I’d say that feeling insane reading these responses is mutual, but we both know it’s not. You and I both know that there is literally no precedent for a role like Miller to be in a game where it is only potentially fucks with a hidden role. That’s why, at every turn, you have refused to provide a single example of a game where that happened, yet you assert that it’s exactly what happened here.

Love that you keep ignoring the likely fact that a compulsive, 6 role JOAT had negative utility roles as though it’s necessarily true, and that you keep arguing that Casey necessarily had a Cop because their roles were just so obvious, despite the fact that you clearly didn’t infer the Cop from Casey’s role list.

Alright, now I’m done. If you want to last word, as you so often do, have at it.
#224
AustinL0926
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For the sake of transparency, I'm strongly leaning towards Luna right now, mainly for mechanics.

In terms of behavior, I think both WF and Luna have posted and argued broadly well. That's not too difficult for any good scum player to fake. However, going back through the arguments, I feel that Luna has materially misrepped WF at several points and I also dislike the logic of "being off mislynch" = town - in fact, having a perfect voting record is often more scummy than not, because scum like to not take the flak for a mislynch and let town do the dirty work.

Let's get to mechanics. All of this really hinges on Casey and Wylted's role.

Casey's role is called a Nightmarish God. Furthermore, all its abilities are compulsive. This heavily hints as to the abilities being ones which are negative utility - I'm guessing:

- I am the hate you try to hide (turns into Hated townie)
- I am the silencing machine (Silencing)
- I am the lover in your bed (Loverizing)
- I give you all you need to know (idk)
- I am the truth from which you run (idk)
- I am denial, guilt and fear (idk, maybe roleblocker)

Notice how all of the obvious abilities affect the target. An investigative ability, which Luna is claiming he dug up, does NOT affect the target and is clearly distinct from the others. It's an outlier.

And getting back to WF and Wylted's claim:

Wylted claimed Miller. We know there must be an alignment investigative role in the game, because that's what Wylted's role descriptions say. If not, then bastard modding whatever.

No one else has claimed an alignment investigative role except whiteflame. If anyone is still withholding that, they're throwing.

So the only possibility - which has been extensively discussed - is that it's for a singular JOAT ability of Casey's. Aside from the fact that "the truth from which you run" is already allegedly taken by Tracker - despite being the best candidate for cop ability - I also, after thinking over it a lot, just don't buy that there's a Miller just for that. I can't exclude it entirely, but given the glaring lack of other investigative roles in the game, whiteflame's role just makes sense for balance, doubly so with Wylted's role.

Finally, Luna's role justification is too straightforward. He has a song named Dig, so he's gravedigger. Literally every flipped person's justification, my justification, and other living player's justifications - at least one of which is town is a stretch. This one's just based off the name of the song.

So yes, I'm fine with voting first if everyone else has checked in.

#225
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@Mharman
It seems we're both willing to go first. I'll wait for Pie to weigh in, although to be clear I don't view him as cleared town, just more likely.
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#226
Cerulean
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The extension has been granted. So, the new deadline is 6:40 AM Eastern Time tomorrow, December 9th.

That's approximately 15 hours and 20 minutes from now.

#227
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@AustinL0926
In terms of behavior, I think both WF and Luna have posted and argued broadly well. That's not too difficult for any good scum player to fake. However, going back through the arguments, I feel that Luna has materially misrepped WF at several points and I also dislike the logic of "being off mislynch" = town - in fact, having a perfect voting record is often more scummy than not, because scum like to not take the flak for a mislynch and let town do the dirty work.

For one, its literally the only case I can make against him. From my POV I know I am town, and I know that a tracker exists because I literally used it on pie. So the fact that whiteflame is CC'ing me with that is almost near confirmation that he is scum to me. But you are right, whiteflame has played well, and we are both resorting to WIFOM to try to make a case for ourselves. The same way you don't like the WIFOM of me not being on lynches, I don't like the WIFOM of my "justification is too straightfoward" because that is something I literally cannot control, the mod gave me my PM, and I am guessing knew little of the band I claimed outside of doing a bit of cursory research on google. Or the way whiteflame argues that the existence of a miller can only exist on a non-hidden JOAT. It's complete WIFOM, but its wifom you are choosing to believe. Is me not being on mislynches the most convincing argument in the world? Probably not, but at the end of the day niether is his WIFOM arguments. But I disagree that scum don't have incentive to be on lynches, because I could have easily justified lynching both mislynch targets based on the circumstances and if questioned would have been logically sound in my defense for voting either of them. It's clear that I wasn't around dp1, but you don't think if I was mafia my scum partner couldn't have been spam pinging me to get on to at least vote GP? It would have been incredibly easy to do so. I was also one of the only ones last night not buying the either or situation between WF and mharman, where whiteflame went over and above to explain why wylted was scum, when it was obvious that wylted was being lynched for being on mharmans report. It's almost the exact thing earth was sussing whiteflame for when he pointed out that whiteflame was over explaining himself, and was why he was FOS'ing him convienently before he died just before mylo. All this can be dismissed as WIFOM sure but I just don't understand why your dismissing my WIFOM over his, when he is literally claiming a second JOAT and CC'ing at LYLO, and somehow thats easier for you to buy than all the more obvious wifom in whiteflames direction. If you are town here, I advise you reconsider everything I have said, because the game is at stake if you vote me over whiteflame. 
#228
Lunatic
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@whiteflame
Well, I’d say that feeling insane reading these responses is mutual, but we both know it’s not. You and I both know that there is literally no precedent for a role like Miller to be in a game where it is only potentially fucks with a hidden role. That’s why, at every turn, you have refused to provide a single example of a game where that happened, yet you assert that it’s exactly what happened here.
Why is the burden on me to find a game where a 1x miller exists with a cop? I am not arguing against that. My point is that you are claiming a 1x cop, and that you are being a massive hypocrite in saying that one can't exist in caseys role group. 

Love that you keep ignoring the likely fact that a compulsive, 6 role JOAT had negative utility roles as though it’s necessarily true, and that you keep arguing that Casey necessarily had a Cop because their roles were just so obvious, despite the fact that you clearly didn’t infer the Cop from Casey’s role list.
So because I didn't correctly guess at the cop role one doesn't exist? There is three roles on that list that sound like investigation style roles, and I just hit wrong. Well the tracker result was useful still, outside of the fact that it is being revealed in LYLO and can be dismissed as WIFOM unless I flip. 

Alright, now I’m done. If you want to last word, as you so often do, have at it.
There's like 3-4 post this day phase alone of yours I didn't respond to, letting you "have the last word". 
#229
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
I have one question for you Pie. If I am scum, who is my teammate?

#230
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
I have one question for you Pie. If I am scum, who is my teammate?
One of Luna/WF 
#231
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@Mharman
Austin has said he’s leaning to vote Luna. Who are you leaning?
#232
ILikePie5
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Ok extension was granted. I’ll respond more after getting home
#233
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@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Please don’t vote till I get home

#234
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@Lunatic
My point is that you are claiming a 1x cop, and that you are being a massive hypocrite in saying that one can't exist in caseys role group. 
I said I wasn’t going to respond, but I’m going to call out straight up lies. I never said Casey cannot possibly have a Cop role. Not once. Several times, I’ve acknowledged it as possible. I have said your framing relies on Casey definitely having a Cop role. So, yes, the absolute claim has the burden of proof. Shocker, I know.
#235
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
Answer my question first.

#236
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
In the meantime, I will note that one of you is buddying me.

Please tell me why the other person is buddying me, and why you are not.
#237
Lunatic
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@Mharman
In the meantime, I will note that one of you is buddying me.

Please tell me why the other person is buddying me, and why you are not.

I think "buddying" implies nefarious  intent, but I did think you were town even prior to the fact that me and whiteflame voted each other. I've explained why a multiple times so to not sound like a broken record, the tl;dr version is I just don't see you making a play like that implicating wylted as scum. I am pretty sure scum has a busdriver, and based on how we can account for actions, it basically has to be whiteflame. You and austin can't be buddying based on behavior and results, and you and pie are obviously not scum partners. So you have to be town  from my POV. If never having any intention of voting you this phase comes off as buddying, I think you are mis-reading it. But you could also be referring to whiteflame here so IDK, just responding as you asked me to. 
#238
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@Mharman
In the meantime, I will note that one of you is buddying me.

Please tell me why the other person is buddying me, and why you are not.
I guess if there’s one way I’m buddying you, it’s by calling out the likely negative utility roles in Casey’s JOAT, which you mentioned earlier. You aren’t the only one to mention it, but it’s an important aspect of why I find Luna’s claim about Casey’s role being “godly” suspect, so I’ve applied it as I felt was warranted. Wouldn’t call it buddying, but I could see it being interpreted that way.

As for Luna, I already mentioned I didn’t like this:

I'll drop the mechanical arguments since mharman doesn't wanna focus on it, and alot of it is just guessing what the mod would or wouldn't do and what roles do or do not exist.
He threw cold water on this argument largely because you said you were discarding it. He then said that he’d approve an extension based on your need for it, and has made clear that he was “not buying the either or situation between WF and mharman” (I think it was between WyIted and you, don’t recall a heads up situation between the two of us) and seems to imply that he always believed your result, making any extra discussion of WyIted moot (note: that certainty apparently didn’t lead him to post a vote last DP).
#239
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
Answer my question first.
Which one? The order? It works two ways. Let’s say Austin is scum and WF is his buddy. Austin votes Luna, and neither you nor I quickhammer. That means that either Luna is scum or the team is exactly WF/Austin I think. I dislike Austin’s claim of the Strengthener. It’s a convenient (not to mention common) fake claim. And he’s been dodging some questions. If you’re town, the anti-claim HAS to be part of manipulation of your results. I don’t think my suicide bomber theory makes sense. Nor do I think you’d do the appeal to absurdity or rely on your partner and just sacrifice yourself.

But all of that aside, I don’t know what the order between you and Austin should be. If he’s heavily leaning town on WF, why hasn’t he voted Luna yet? It’s been a better part of two and a half days
#240
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
The question about who my teammate is. I saw you restate the obvious, but that’s not good enough for me.