Trust the "Experts"

Author: ADreamOfLiberty

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Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
First, you can certainly verify or disprove the mechanics expertise by his explanation if you have enough expertise yourself to understand it or to understand that he is not using terms correctly.
Irrelevant. If you're an expert yourself then you have no need to trust the experts

Second, causing the car to run does not prove he is an expert. Some problems solve themselves, an overheated coolant system, engine oil that was too cold until it was brought into the shop, a computer that was reset when he blindly unplugged the battery.
Irrelevant. It was just a hypothetical example, you're missing the whole point.

Moreover if "results" are defined as "fixing something" 
I stated very clearly that expertise is demonstrated by a proven track record of results.

Antibiotics are "the power of god"?
Ugh. No.

You gave an example of someone claiming they are a prophet of God as their explanation for their positive results. The topic is about whether it is rational to "trust the experts", in your hypothetical the man isn't even claiming to be one.
Double_R
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@Mall
DO....WE....HAVE.... TIME....TO....SEE....THINGS...... FOR.....OUR....SELVES?

Very basic yes or no question. 
It's an ill formed and terribly worded question which is why I asked for clarity. Shouting the exact same question louder doesn't provide it.
Mall
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@Moozer325
So you just rely on what people say as evidence alone. Relying on more than one person saying something doesn't make it more true or evident at all .
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R
First, you can certainly verify or disprove the mechanics expertise by his explanation if you have enough expertise yourself to understand it or to understand that he is not using terms correctly.
Irrelevant. If you're an expert yourself then you have no need to trust the experts
Expertise is a spectrum.


Second, causing the car to run does not prove he is an expert. Some problems solve themselves, an overheated coolant system, engine oil that was too cold until it was brought into the shop, a computer that was reset when he blindly unplugged the battery.
Irrelevant. It was just a hypothetical example, you're missing the whole point.
Well if you were trying to make a general point shouldn't you be able to find a specific example that makes it?


Moreover if "results" are defined as "fixing something" 
I stated very clearly that expertise is demonstrated by a proven track record of results.
I'll state very clearly that such does not prove expertise it proves effectiveness of some behavior. True expertise results in effectiveness, but effectiveness does not prove true expertise.

Hippocrates helped a lot of people (one can presume) but he was wrong about humors. Was he a medical expert?

Don't strawman this. I know that in our every day life we need to trust the expertise of others, there is too much for one man to know it all; but this is the order of authority:

1.) Reason, there is no substitute, there is no replacement, there is nothing better
2.) Effectiveness (a track record of results)
3.) The esteem of already trusted entities
4.) The esteem of the untrusted general population

2-4 are proxies for (1). In every case whatever power you have to evaluate (1) overrides 2-4. There are indicators of non-expertise and #1 on that list is a refusal to give reasons when asked. All true experts have reasons. Anyone who is effective without reasons is like a mechanic who just got lucky or Hippocrates and his humors. They are not experts and their theories and proclamations are not trustworthy.


You gave an example of someone claiming they are a prophet of God as their explanation for their positive results.
Yes


The topic is about whether it is rational to "trust the experts"
No, it's about the fact that there is no mechanism to establish expertise with certainty but to become, to some extent, an expert. That establishing expertise is itself a rational process, the best argument, and therefore in debate and in science (which is a subset of rational epistemology) there is absolutely no place for trust.

Repeat the experiment, don't trust the claim. This isn't an arbitrary rule, it's implied by reason. Science only became distinct from religious philosophy and theology when it eliminated trust from the equation and thereby became a fully rational process.


in your hypothetical the man isn't even claiming to be one.
Of course he is. You simply defined a prophet as "not an expert". A cultural bias that most of humanity did not share up until about five minutes ago.

Yet that was chosen intentionally, how can you tell the difference between a false prophet and an expert when both can produce "good results" consistently?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Yet that was chosen intentionally, how can you tell the difference between a false prophet and an expert when both can produce "good results" consistently?
Duhh, " good results consistently " does not equal a " false prophet ".

That also goes for any prophet not just the given false prophet ---aka false narrative set--- 3rd grader, 8th grader., college grads etc.

I see no logical pathway of thought  occurring here with ADL.

3rd graders are experts at whatever they commonly do as 3rd graders --ex recess--.

8th graders are experts of whatever they commonly do as 8th graders --ex learning puberty basics---.

College grads are experts of whatever they commonly do as college grads --ex celebration of getting through college---.

False narrative set of people are experts of what they commonly do as false narrative set   --ex creating unnecessary and unfounded chaos, confusion,anxieties etc in others---. 


Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well if you were trying to make a general point shouldn't you be able to find a specific example that makes it?
I did, you just didn't listen to it because you held my analogy to the standard where it must prove the entire argument I am making here instead of the subset of the argument I was responding to.

You claimed that results are irrelevant without argument. The point of my analogy is to show that you have it backwards, argument is irrelevant without results. So there's an example to make that one point, which it does. Anyone can make a convincing argument, it's not till they prove themselves by demonstrating that they have it right that we can begin to evaluate them as an expert.

I know that in our every day life we need to trust the expertise of others, there is too much for one man to know it all
Then what are we talking about?

Repeat the experiment, don't trust the claim.
You just said the opposite

establishing expertise is itself a rational process, the best argument, and therefore in debate and in science (which is a subset of rational epistemology) there is absolutely no place for trust.
When the phrase "trust the experts" is uttered, no one is talking about science and/or debate. Of course if I'm conducting a scientific experiment I don't get to say "my results are X because that's what other experts told me to report". The phrase refers to decision making, and people making such decisions don't often have the time or even the literacy to put on a lab coat and figure it out themselves.

in your hypothetical the man isn't even claiming to be one.
Of course he is. You simply defined a prophet as "not an expert".
No, you did. You claimed that his status as a prophet from God was his explanation for being able to heal people. That's notably different from "I am able to heal people because I understand how all of this works and if you learned what I have learned you can do it too".
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You don’t need to be an expert to identify an expert. And expert is someone who has dedicated their life to studying a topic, and they are so well versed in that subject that they are more likely to be right about it than other people.

There’s not a set criteria for being an expert, but generally it’s the people at the very top of their field. Ask anybody who studies that, and if they would consider that person an expert, chances are that they know what they are talking about.

Obviously that doesn’t mean these people are always right, or that you shouldn’t look at the data yourself. It just means that this person is more likely to be right than you are, so you should probably take their opinion into account, and if all of the experts agree on something, they there’s an even lower chance they are wrong.
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@Mall
No, of course not. I’ve spent this whole conversation trying to say that trusting the experts isn’t about blindly trusting people.

Obviously, look at the numbers yourself, and an experts opinion never proves anything. If there’s no solid proof or evidence, the next best thing is an experts opinion.
Mall
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@Moozer325
Yeah just realize what you're saying and the next best thing is finding the evidence. Whether you see it or not, you rely on so called experts . You are most comfortable.
Mall
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@Double_R
Ask me the question I asked you please.
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@Mall
I'd add one little caveat to that too. If you don't have the time to do all the research, it's usually okay to trust the experts without finding evidence yourself, usually because these experts make their claims based on evidence. They have done much more research than you will ever come across, or be able to do, so as long as this person is really an expert, and you look at other opinions in the field, you're usually going to be fine by trusting them.

Obviously, experts don't actually constitute evidence, so whenever I cite one in a debate I make sure to provide statistics too, and to actually explain the study they did, just so it's not a war of link finding.