Does Humanity Need A God Story?

Author: ethang5

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#91
Outplayz
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@Smithereens
Okay second experience which is a shorter story thankfully, my hands are tired i've been typing all day. I went with a friend to one of his friends houses. The house was thrashed, everything everywhere, some holes in the walls, so i jokingly told the guy, "hey is your house haunted or something." As soon as i said that his eye's lit up. He said, "how did you know." I said know what? That my house is haunted. Then i started teasing him, bc i am naturally skeptical. This happened before the previous one btw... i would have been less skeptical if that had happened first. But at this point, i really didn't believe in spirit stuff. So i kept teasing. 

He started to share some of the "ghost" stories in his house. They were pretty profound. Things like his stuff being thrown. His clothing thrashing around by itself. Stuff like that. He thought whatever the "ghost" was is evil and "out to get him." At that point i thought, well if it can do all that, it should be able to spin my necklace. So i took off my necklace and i told him... hey, if you are serious tell it to spin my necklace. He agreed. This is the crazy part. I told him to wait. My mind was all scientific at this point. I said wait so i can watch the natural spin. I held my arms on my knees, got comfortable, used my other hand for more stabilization and said okay... i'm ready. He started yelling "spin it, spin it" The light right spin turned into a medium spin, to a hard right spin... i still didn't believe and said no way... tell it to stop it. He yelled to stop it, the right spin slowed, and came to a stop... i still didn't believe... i thought the natural spin is right, the hard spin was right... it should be impossible for it to go left, so i said tell it to spin left... he asked and so did we receive. It literally stopped the small right spin, started spinning left, to a hard left spin. I dropped the necklace at that point freaked the hell out. 

The thing with this one is i can't even say coincidence. I am lost on this one. I've tried to replicate it and the only way it could have spun as hard as it did from me holding it was that i spun it. Even if it was subconscious... i had to spin it, moving my hands around... my hands were still. So... this sorta brought me over to the dark side... especially since a week later he died of a drug overdose.. haunting the experience even more. 

There... that is two out of the four experiences i've had. I've thought of them all critically, but i'm curious to your analysis or thoughts.  
#92
Stephen
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@vagabond
The fact is that you are lying and can't even come close to defending your lies.
You really are silly aren't you, pea brain.You are  making yet another UNSUPPORTED claim.. What ever is the matter with you. Please cease your attempts at derailing another's thread because you are not a interesting enough person to start an interesting thread of your own. ☺
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#93
ethang5
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@drafterman
You brought up the phrase "fundamental nature" to which I interpret to mean in the generic sense of it being a basic and core component of our being.
Really? I don't remember where I brought up. But OK.

If you mean something else by this phrase, you will have to supply the definition.
No. I rather like your definition.

I believe it is in our natural because of our psychology, which is rooted in biology, which is rooted in genetics, yes.
So would it be correct to say that humans are genetically predisposed to god stories?

It exists because evolution favors a mind that is predisposed towards recognizing false patterns over failing to recognize true ones.
And what is the pattern we are seeing that we are failing to recognize?

This is a trade off with any pattern recognition machine.
This is interesting. For a pattern recognition machine must first be aware of patterns in order to develop the algorithm to recognize them.

Do you know of any other generic concept in our fundamental nature, that does not exist in reality?

All superstitious believes ever invented by man.
Some beliefs that were originally thought to be superstition turned out not to be. Where do those fall? It seems to me all you're saying here is that humans are predisposed to belief.

But that does not explain the similarity of belief spanning human culture and history.

All abstract thoughts.
Faster than sound travel was once "abstract". So was man walking on the moon. So was a living, conscious, talking man without a heart.

I sense a contradiction in your core argument.
#94
drafterman
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@ethang5
Really? I don't remember where I brought up. But OK.

So would it be correct to say that humans are genetically predisposed to god stories?
I would say that humans are genetically predisposed to superstitious beliefs, of which god stories are one. That is not to say that god stories are an inevitable product, but perhaps likely.

And what is the pattern we are seeing that we are failing to recognize?
I think you misunderstood my statement. A pattern recognition machine can suffer from two kinds of errors: Thinking it sees a pattern where none actually exists, or failing to see a pattern that actually does exist. Tuning a pattern recognition to compensate against one type of error makes it more prone to the other.

Brains are wired to compensate for the second type of error, making them prone to the first. We don't fail to see patterns, meaning we are prone to the first type of error: seeing patterns that aren't actually there.

For a pattern recognition machine must first be aware of patterns in order to develop the algorithm to recognize them.
Awareness is not a requirement. It just needs to be able to respond to stimuli.

Some beliefs that were originally thought to be superstition turned out not to be. Where do those fall?
You'd have to provide examples.

But that does not explain the similarity of belief spanning human culture and history.
Why wouldn't it? We all have the same brain that works in the same way. Why would it be a surprise that it produces similar results across the globe?

Faster than sound travel was once "abstract". So was man walking on the moon. So was a living, conscious, talking man without a heart.I sense a contradiction in your core argument.
I meant things like, numbers, perfect geometric shapes, abstractions of reality that don't actually exist in physical reality.

Nevertheless, unless you are arguing that all superstitious belief and abstract thought exists in reality, then my answer to your question stands, even if I worded it overly strongly.

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#95
ethang5
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@drafterman
Really? I don't remember where I brought up. But OK.

I didn't bring it up. You did. It's in your comment, I simply responded to it.

I would say that humans are genetically predisposed to superstitious beliefs, of which god stories are one.
That is the logical error of begging the question. You've pre-relagated the belief to superstition, then deem it superstition. Human are predisposed to belief, some of which prove true, some of which don't.

That is not to say that god stories are an inevitable product,
You said they were inevitable.

For a pattern recognition machine must first be aware of patterns in order to develop the algorithm to recognize them.

Awareness is not a requirement. It just needs to be able to respond to stimuli.
Untrue. Simple stumili response will not show patterns, much less recognize patterns when they show up. A pattern recognition machine must first be aware of patterns in order to develop the algorithm to recognize them.

But that does not explain the similarity of belief spanning human culture and history.

Why wouldn't it?
Because there is nothing else in the human experience like that. The universal similarity contradicts the claim that the belief is untrue superstition. That is like every culture since time began, randomly  picking the SAME wrong answer to a question. That is not a reasonable belief.

Why would it be a surprise that it produces similar results across the globe?
Because nothing else does. Nothing else that is not a part of reality.

I meant things like....... abstractions of reality that don't actually exist in physical reality.
Then you have fallen to a logical error. You pre-restrict the possible answers to only the non-existent, and then deem it superstition. That is assuming your conclusion within your argument. A logical error.

...unless you are arguing that all superstitious belief and abstract thought exists in reality, then my answer to your question stands,...
No. Why would it need be 'all'? Superstition is not static. Things we once believed can become superstition, and vice-versa.

Your argument is contradictory, and based on a logical error.
#96
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@ethang5
You did. It's in your comment, I simply responded to it.
You're right, my apologies.

That is the logical error of begging the question. You've pre-relagated the belief to superstition, then deem it superstition. Human are predisposed to belief, some of which prove true, some of which don't.
I don't know what "pre-relagated" means. I deem god beliefs to be superstition. Humans are predisposed to superstition.

You said they were inevitable.
You're right, I meant specific god stories aren't inevitable.

Simple stumili response will not show patterns, much less recognize patterns when they show up. A pattern recognition machine must first be aware of patterns in order to develop the algorithm to recognize them.
This is simply not true. Don't know what to tell you.

Because there is nothing else in the human experience like that. The universal similarity contradicts the claim that the belief is untrue superstition. That is like every culture since time began, randomly  picking the SAME wrong answer to a question.
But humans didn't pick the same wrong answer. Human superstitious beliefs differ across cultures, even if there are similarities.

Because nothing else does. Nothing else that is not a part of reality.
There are plenty of things. Elves, goblins, vampires, gremlins, hymphs and dragons. These are things cultures have invented all across the globe at different types that aren't "part of reality."

hen you have fallen to a logical error. You pre-restrict the possible answers to only the non-existent, and then deem it superstition. That is assuming your conclusion within your argument. A logical error
I don't see how. You asked for things we believe that don't exist in reality, and I provided examples. Unless you're saying that all superstitions and abstract thoughts exist in reality then you are conceding that at least some superstitions and abstract thoughts don't exist in reality which answers your question about us believing in things that don't exist in reality.

No. Why would it need be 'all'? Superstition is not static. Things we once believed can become superstition, and vice-versa.Your argument is contradictory, and based on a logical error.
We are using superstition in different senses, then. A superstition is less about whether or not it is 'true' and more about the faulty reasoning leading it to be true. People can, by chance, be right, but that doesn't make their belief not superstition.


#97
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@Stephen
My claims? Or are you just lying.
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#98
ethang5
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@drafterman
 I deem god beliefs to be superstition.
Yes. And that colors your evaluation of the phenomenon in human culture.

Simple stumili response will not show patterns, much less recognize patterns when they show up. A pattern recognition machine must first be aware of patterns in order to develop the algorithm to recognize them.

This is simply not true. Don't know what to tell you.
You could give us an example of a machine that can detect patterns simply by response to stimuli.

Because nothing else does. Nothing else that is not a part of reality.

There are plenty of things. Elves, goblins, vampires, gremlins, hymphs and dragons.
None of these things qualify. None of them are universal over time and culture the way beliefs about god is. There are whole cultures that have never thought of dragons for example.

You asked for things we believe that don't exist in reality, and I provided examples.
No sir. I asked for things that are fundamental to our nature, being a basic and core component of our being, that are universal beliefs across time and culture, that also do not exist in reality.

There is nothing else like that. 

For example, it is obvious from the fact that beliefs about goblins is not universal, shows that humans are not genetically predisposed to goblin stories. Only god covers all times and all cultures.

You call it superstitution, but why? There is not a single other example of a superstition being a concept embedded in our fundamental nature.

You believe what you do simply because you want to, not because of logic or rational thinking. You are interpreting reality based soley on your prior beliefs.
#99
drafterman
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@ethang5
You could give us an example of a machine that can detect patterns simply by response to stimuli.
Any computer, for example.

None of them are universal over time and culture the way beliefs about god is. There are whole cultures that have never thought of dragons for example.
I think you are conflating two things. I agree that for any specific belief, these are not necessarily universal. And this is true for specific gods (there is no specific god-concept that is universal) as it is for dragons. But for general beliefs, this applies equally to god-concepts as it does to mythical monsters, for example. Every culture I am aware of has conceived of invisible spirits, or deadly monsters, that don't correspond to anything in reality, even if they differ on the specific nature of those things. Just like gods.

Only god covers all times and all cultures.
No, gods. There is no single god-concept that covers all times and all cultures. The idea of a "god" is just as wide and diverse as the idea of a "demon". And this is presupposing that every culture has invented a god concept. I don't think we have enough data to support that assertion.

You call it superstitution, but why?
Because it is rooted in false attribution of cause-and-effect, like all superstitions.

You are interpreting reality based soley on your prior beliefs.
I fail to see how I can interpret reality based on my future beliefs. My prior beliefs is all I have. It's all you have. You asked a question and I respond in an admittedly casual manner, explaining my beliefs. I did not present it in the form of an iron clad logical syllogism, no. I did not think that was being requested. To summarize:

1. The brain is a pattern recognition machine.
2. It predisposed towards recognizing false patterns.
3. This results in superstitious beliefs.
4. Belief in god-concepts falls into the category of superstitious beliefs.
5. This is why humans have developed god-concepts.
#100
vagabond
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I can't think of any original culture that imagined a monogod, that sort of defeats the entire argument. Most early cultures were animist which must make animism true.
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#101
ethang5
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@drafterman


>4. Belief in god-concepts falls into the category of superstitious beliefs.

This is where your argument fail. Your categorization is ad-hoc with out justification.

>5. This is why humans have developed god-concepts.

No. Every culture developed a strikingly similar god concept because they all recognized the patterns for god's existence in nature.
Rom 1:19 - because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
#102
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@ethang5
I'm not making an argument, I'm simply iterating my beliefs. I do not find the different god-concepts invented by man to be particularly similar. At least not sufficiently similar to attribute truth to them.
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#103
ethang5
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@drafterman
Ok.

But none of them have to be true. Just like 5 eyewitnesses telling what happened at a wedding, each may get something wrong, but there was a wedding.

Every culture seeing something in nature to come up with a similar god concept, he is creator of the world, more powerful than man, is not subject to time, creator of life, knows the future, knows our thoughts....

They may get some small part wrong, but there definitely is a god.



#104
drafterman
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@ethang5
But none of them have to be true. Just like 5 eyewitnesses telling what happened at a wedding, each may get something wrong, but there was a wedding.
If they disagree on the venue, the number of participants, the time, date, physical description of the participants, the menu, etc. then I would seriously doubt anything they said, including the fact that there was even a wedding.

Every culture seeing something in nature to come up with a similar god concept, he is creator of the world, more powerful than man, is not subject to time, creator of life, knows the future, knows our thoughts....They may get some small part wrong, but there definitely is a god.
I do not agree that all of those elements you have listed are universal across all cultures at all times. Don't get me wrong. I do believe that what they are ultimately referring to does exist. For example, a culture that posits that a nearby volcano is a god. I don't disbelieve in the existence of the volcano, just that it is a god. The idea of a personal, creator, atemporal, omniscient, omnipotent god is a relatively recent creation that is in the minority, relatively speaking.

On the whole, most god-concepts are little more than humanistic personalities slapped onto forces of nature. We had a flood because the river god is mad. There has been a drought because the sun god is unhappy. Etc. Etc.

Not to mention other things like ancestor worship and animism which don't fit any of the attributes you mention.
#105
keithprosser
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@drafterman
We had a flood because the river god is mad. There has been a drought because the sun god is unhappy. Etc. Etc.

I am sure you are right.  And -of course-it suggests a course of action; ie to appease said god.  Hence societies develop rituals, often involving sacrifices as 'bribes' to the gods.

And of course eventually floods do go down and droughts end so it can appear the rituals actually work.  If they don't work then it is easily explained by saying the sacrifice was not done right, or not big enough.  

one suspects that from the beginning religion was a mixture of cynical exploitation of the masses by an elite and genuine belief.

#106
Outplayz
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@ethang5
Ok. But none of them have to be true. Just like 5 eyewitnesses telling what happened at a wedding, each may get something wrong, but there was a wedding.Every culture seeing something in nature to come up with a similar god concept, he is creator of the world, more powerful than man, is not subject to time, creator of life, knows the future, knows our thoughts....They may get some small part wrong, but there definitely is a god.

In this case, aren't you basically admitting to a deistic type of god... or something different than any one religion explains? Since they, by this logical, all may have errors but point to one entity. 
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#107
ethang5
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@Outplayz
As atheists are wont to knee-jerk, he began by thinking I was attempting to establish the Christian God. But for my argument, the particular god is immaterial. It is clear from the universality of the belief, that the patterns exist in reality.

It is then impossible to call it superstition. Was it superstition when scientists believed in blood letting? Superstitions cannot be real in the actual world.

So whether you conclude a deistic god, a poly god, or a specific god, my point is that he exists, which is why every culture has seen his pattern in nature and come up with virtually the same story.
#108
vagabond
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@ethang5
So all gods exist because humans have created them from experiencing wind and rain and don't forget thunder, a very important god there.
Your argument boils down to because humans recognise patterns, even where none exist, this ability caused them to invent gods to explain the existence of these perceived patterns. OK. I'm convinced of the same.
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#109
ethang5
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@keithprosser
We had a flood because the river god is mad. There has been a drought because the sun god is unhappy. Etc. Etc.
God stories preceded natural catastrophes. And the exist where the weather is always serene and kind.

No other phenomena qualifies. We have god stories because there is a god. There is no intrinsic human need for nonexistent things. If the human desire for god is genetic, then something in the environment caused that desire to develop. This is a fact of evolution.
#110
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@ethang5
God stories preceded natural catastrophes.
Natural catastrophies have existed for billions of years, how long have god stories existed? Since humans. God stories can't exist without humans ergo gods can't exist without humans.

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#111
ethang5
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Sorry, I don't feed trolls.
#112
vagabond
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@ethang5
Sorry, I don't feed trolls.
You just are one.
What you mean and have always meant is that you can't handle the information I supply and certainly can't answer any of my questions honestly. You just release your anger when the lies you tell are confronted by me and you simply can't respond. I feel sorry for you.
#113
Polytheist-Witch
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@Smithereens
Very true in Aus. Many of the christians I know are agnostic, and don't know or care about the existence of God. Conversely, I have atheist friends who attend church for no other reason than the social aspect.

Then they are not Christians. 
#114
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@Outplayz
I think you have a point. But, personally.. i am a contradiction to that. I was atheist until a couple profound experiences have changed my views. I am far from religious... but, bc of these experiences, i have imagined a spiritual platform that can explain them. I became spiritual due to experience(s). I doubt i am the only one too. But i get what you are saying too... if people are religious minded they will probably have more experiences or prone to them. However, in the very beginning when no one was religious or had a spiritual view... i imagine spiritual experiences are what started the speculations. 

All people, even if raised in a religion are atheist until they have an experience. They are just cultural believers until they see it for themselves. 
#115
Smithereens
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@Polytheist-Witch
yeah well they call themselves christians. Who am I to call them liars. If you've met Anal-gesic in this thread you'll know that everyone who ticks the box on the census saying they're christian is definitely 100% christian without a doubt. Anal-gesic can't be wrong remember, he has the census data you see. 
#116
Outplayz
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@ethang5
I have reasons why i don't believe in a god as commonly defined, but i do think there is a first source of intelligence which would be online with your logic. I am just one that defines "god" differently but i guess i am still going towards the idea. 
#117
Outplayz
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@Polytheist-Witch
All people, even if raised in a religion are atheist until they have an experience. They are just cultural believers until they see it for themselves. 

I agree. But, i don't know if you read the 2 experiences i shared, but experiences like that give you no choice but to consider there might be something going on. Some people are swayed more easy... for instance an experience would be a mere revelation or something small. For me, it had to be as big as my experiences were. Even those i am still agnostic over bc you know... i can still say coincidence. But they are profound enough to not have me be confident to say i am an atheist and/or i believe in nothing.  

I just wonder why... why is it that i have had these experiences but others don't? I sometimes think i could have momentarily gone insane, but then the second experience i shared defies that bc i have proof it happened in that my other friend was there too. It just makes things kinda weird. I always tell atheists be happy you don't have experiences bc it really does mess with your mind. 

Have you had any experiences btw? 
#118
Polytheist-Witch
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@Outplayz
I agree. But, i don't know if you read the 2 experiences i shared, but experiences like that give you no choice but to consider there might be something going on. Some people are swayed more easy... for instance an experience would be a mere revelation or something small. For me, it had to be as big as the experiences i've had. Even those i am still agnostic over bc you know... i can still say coincidence. But they are profound enough to not have me be confident to say i am an atheist and/or i believe in nothing.  I just wonder why... why is it that i have had these experiences but others don't? I sometimes think i could have momentarily gone insane, but then the second experience i shared defies that bc i have proof it happened in that my other friend was there it too. It just makes things kinda weird. I always tell atheists be happy you don't have experiences bc it really does mess with your mind. Have you had any experiences btw? 

Yes I read them. Mine were not as what I would call intense as yours but they changed my way of thinking. I have always believed in an afterlife from about age six on. We had an active spirit in the house I grew up in with others seeing it as well. God or gods was another matter. I had a vision of Christ at 17 and a salvation experience at 19. I was not raised in any religion but both grandmothers were Christian. After a NDE I lost all faith in God and Jesus. Then had several experiences with the Germanic/ Norse gods I work with now. I think not only experiences but worshiping deities is not the happy go lucky life that most atheists seem to claim theists get into theism for. 
#119
Stronn
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@ethang5
God stories preceded natural catastrophes. And the exist where the weather is always serene and kind.
I think you need to reconsider both statements.

Natural catastrophes have occurred since the beginning of time, and no place on Earth has weather that is always serene.



#120
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@Polytheist-Witch
That's something we have in common... i have always believed in a "spiritual" reality since i can remember. Not only that, as a kid, i was certain things like powers existed. This is without knowing anything about spirituality or religion. I use to imagine things i had never seen or had knowledge of... things like space warefare, etc., when i would play with my imagination. It was when i got a little older that i remember looking back and thinking... wooh, the things i was thinking were impossible for me to know. That plus when i was young i had 4 spiritual experiences that were impossible when i was older and looked back. As a kid, i thought of course they could happen bc of my confidence in spirituality. I don't use these 4 when i explain experiences bc they could have been dreams. I could swear they weren't... but, this is when i was 4 through 6 so who knows. When i got to middle/high school i started becoming atheist mainly bc of religion. I've never believed in organized religion. I've always seen the flaws clearly. So, religion pushed me away bc i wasn't smart enough at this point to think of alternatives. When one of these profound experiences happened is when i started thinking of a spiritual platform that can explain everything i've experienced. From there on... i'm at where i am at present. This is why i think spiritual experiences are one of the main reasons humanity has tried to define spirituality. Which tells me all of it is man-made, but that doesn't mean some of it isn't true... since all of it is an attempt to define something unseen that can intelligently interact with us.