Exactly 14 hours and 50 minutes remain in the day.
Mayday Mafia DP4
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@Cerulean
@iamanabanana
Well, we’re at mid-afternoon on my end with a little less than 10 hours remaining. Banana’s been offline since her last post, so we might not get a chance to have all 3 of us online and posting together in real time. Absent that, decisions still have to be made, so we can’t be stuck in a holding pattern forever. Banana in particular seems really uncertain, but none of us can remain indecisive now and holding back on votes is getting us nowhere. I’ll cast my vote before the night is up regardless.
I am here...
I am not going to respond to everything line by line. I am just not. I don't have the time, and a lot of it is really just narrative spinning. I'll qoute things that seem relevant to make my point.
But really my whole point is what I was saying before; He has already decided that I am mafia and is making a case against me to fit his own narrative. Does he do this as town? Whiteflame is by far not confirmed either so it makes no sense for him to do this. This is why I think cerulean is probably mafia and trying to go for me, the weaker, easier target. I don't know all the terminology and mafia lingo so he thinks he can bully me into getting lynched because of this. He might be right, but I am going to go down fighting!
'Pie tells Banana to act like her role is a wolf one. We can't be sure if they committed to Banana being a Roleblocker early or if they wanted to leave the door open for a different role that's scum on the Guide, like Bus Driver."
"There may have been some discussion in the scum chat, but Pie presumably also tells Banana to go for the Roleblocker claim after Owen claimed Inventor Rolestopper."
If you think I am lying about my role, you have to remember I claimed this literally in my first post even if not directly. Post 25 I said "By the way, in this game I have been assured by the moderator that I am town, but I am confused, because according to earth Guide to Forum Mafia, my role is under Mafia Roles, but the moderator assures me I am town. So I just am giving a heads up this time around."
If you look at the mafia guide posted by earth the roles listed there are: Goon, Godfather, Stalker, Politician, Lawyer, and Busdriver." So unless you thought I was going to claim any of those roles, it was fairly obvious that I was claiming Roleblocker very early from my first post.
"-The Day ends with a lynch on Owen. Both Pie and Banana give the Two answer to throw off the investigation.
-I did make a mistake on this in my "story." Banana said zero, not two. This is still a little bit off, because if we consider the Owen death, that means Banana's POE at the time was Whiteflame, Pie, and Casey- one is strictly mathematically better if they all have equal odds. But more importantly, the thing here is that both of them picked different wrong answers. While that's true that all of us were wrong, Banana's choice doesn't align because she was different from Pie. It can easily be a form of distancing, because it looks like that was the team's Day 1 plan."
My point earlier, I am literally damned if I do, damned if I don't. He first uses this vote against me as a "They are trying to throw off the investigation", which was actually part of the reason I put 0 my vote, because I noticed pie not voting on a lynch but voting 2 people in his answer. Then he realizes his mistake and spins it that it is actually scummy of me to do this?! This is narrative spinning at it's finest. But from my perspective this vote was still the right choice. As of right now the POE is still the same, whiteflame, and pie were not on the lynch. We know pie was mafia and whiteflame's alignment is still up in the air, so from my POV this is still a town move to vote 0 here. If ceru is mafia, then you have to change your argument to me only slightly sabotaging my answer since ceru was on the vote I believe. If you do that, you are literally damning me for any choice then you have to admit to some narrative spinning.
-The next Day, Pie pretends to be silenced in the hopes that it will get him townread. Banana claims to have blocked Pie as an alibi for Pie.
Another example of him literally taking anything I do that should be considered a town move, and spinning it to make me mafia. I literally Roleblocked a mafia member night phase one. And that is an alibi? What?! Obviously at this time I didn't know pie was even mafia though, so if anything it would make me look worse for visiting a person claiming to be silenced. It's only in hindsight of pie claiming to be mafia that we know this was a pro town move. And I claimed this immediately in my first post, there was tracking roles at the time that could have caught me in a lie if I was lying. So for your narrative spin to work here, you are operating under the assumption that I got super duper lucky to not be caught by casey, and even luckier still that casey was the night kill target. Anything I do that should be looked at as a town thing, you just spin to me having this master level degree in mafia psychology and doing it because you think I am actually mafia and every convenience just works out for me as mafia. Yet he says he is 70-80% sure I am mafia... Just wow...
-Pie follows the flow for the investigation. Banana probably intentionally skipped out on it.
Hey you got me here. Evil old banana, laughing maniacally and twisting my invisible evil villain mustache as I purposely just have an actual life away from you nerds. I was probably watching netflix or something, but no, as you say, yeah totally intentional. Literally don't even know how to respond to this without laughing at the absurdity of it.
Banana claims to have blocked Earth, but doesn't push it much.
You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true. I roleblocked him because as I said at the time, there was still some people holding lingering doubt about him, and if I potentially stopped a night kill we would have confirmation he was lying. It was a safe action that had nothing to do with me reading him as suspicious and didn't risk blocking a town power role. It seemed like a good option and I stand by my decision to do it. I was more sure of earth as town after doing so. Why would I "push" a town read?
Conclusion?
Anyways the following post is more of his story in detail, but I feel like I have responded to everything relevant here. I don't see the point in responding to hypothetical actions he thinks I would take because he randomly and arbitrarily decided that everything I have done in this game as some evil twist to it. I think that is very clear and spells itself out with his narrative spinning here.
The question is: Why go to the length to narrative spin and move the goal post of my actual intentions if he actually considered me to be town? I don't really buy ceru doing this as town, and for the record, I don't even recall ceru ever scum reading me prior to this actual day phase. But now out of nowhere he is just 70-80% sure I am mafia? How? Why? He attacked whiteflame earlier in the phase, whiteflame bit back hard, and now he is going for what he feels will be the easier lynch to push. Plain and simple. Ceru isn't approaching this from an angle that demonstrates he lacks information and is trying to solve anything here. He is coming from an angle of "We need to lynch someone, and I want to take the path of least resistance". I'll admit, I am that path. I don't know enough about this game to fully defend myself against a lot of the lingo and jargon he uses. All I can do it point out the clear narrative spinning.
At this point I think though I am pretty decided that it is probably ceru is who mafia, based on how hard he is trying to push me while claiming he isn't sure I am scum, but painting my literal every action as suspicious. Especially when I literally blocked a mafia day phase one. So I'll put my money where my mouth is and...
VTL ceru.
I am not going to respond to everything line by line. I am just not. I don't have the time, and a lot of it is really just narrative spinning. I'll qoute things that seem relevant to make my point.
But really my whole point is what I was saying before; He has already decided that I am mafia and is making a case against me to fit his own narrative. Does he do this as town? Whiteflame is by far not confirmed either so it makes no sense for him to do this. This is why I think cerulean is probably mafia and trying to go for me, the weaker, easier target. I don't know all the terminology and mafia lingo so he thinks he can bully me into getting lynched because of this. He might be right, but I am going to go down fighting!
'Pie tells Banana to act like her role is a wolf one. We can't be sure if they committed to Banana being a Roleblocker early or if they wanted to leave the door open for a different role that's scum on the Guide, like Bus Driver."
"There may have been some discussion in the scum chat, but Pie presumably also tells Banana to go for the Roleblocker claim after Owen claimed Inventor Rolestopper."
If you think I am lying about my role, you have to remember I claimed this literally in my first post even if not directly. Post 25 I said "By the way, in this game I have been assured by the moderator that I am town, but I am confused, because according to earth Guide to Forum Mafia, my role is under Mafia Roles, but the moderator assures me I am town. So I just am giving a heads up this time around."
If you look at the mafia guide posted by earth the roles listed there are: Goon, Godfather, Stalker, Politician, Lawyer, and Busdriver." So unless you thought I was going to claim any of those roles, it was fairly obvious that I was claiming Roleblocker very early from my first post.
"-The Day ends with a lynch on Owen. Both Pie and Banana give the Two answer to throw off the investigation.
-I did make a mistake on this in my "story." Banana said zero, not two. This is still a little bit off, because if we consider the Owen death, that means Banana's POE at the time was Whiteflame, Pie, and Casey- one is strictly mathematically better if they all have equal odds. But more importantly, the thing here is that both of them picked different wrong answers. While that's true that all of us were wrong, Banana's choice doesn't align because she was different from Pie. It can easily be a form of distancing, because it looks like that was the team's Day 1 plan."
My point earlier, I am literally damned if I do, damned if I don't. He first uses this vote against me as a "They are trying to throw off the investigation", which was actually part of the reason I put 0 my vote, because I noticed pie not voting on a lynch but voting 2 people in his answer. Then he realizes his mistake and spins it that it is actually scummy of me to do this?! This is narrative spinning at it's finest. But from my perspective this vote was still the right choice. As of right now the POE is still the same, whiteflame, and pie were not on the lynch. We know pie was mafia and whiteflame's alignment is still up in the air, so from my POV this is still a town move to vote 0 here. If ceru is mafia, then you have to change your argument to me only slightly sabotaging my answer since ceru was on the vote I believe. If you do that, you are literally damning me for any choice then you have to admit to some narrative spinning.
-The next Day, Pie pretends to be silenced in the hopes that it will get him townread. Banana claims to have blocked Pie as an alibi for Pie.
Another example of him literally taking anything I do that should be considered a town move, and spinning it to make me mafia. I literally Roleblocked a mafia member night phase one. And that is an alibi? What?! Obviously at this time I didn't know pie was even mafia though, so if anything it would make me look worse for visiting a person claiming to be silenced. It's only in hindsight of pie claiming to be mafia that we know this was a pro town move. And I claimed this immediately in my first post, there was tracking roles at the time that could have caught me in a lie if I was lying. So for your narrative spin to work here, you are operating under the assumption that I got super duper lucky to not be caught by casey, and even luckier still that casey was the night kill target. Anything I do that should be looked at as a town thing, you just spin to me having this master level degree in mafia psychology and doing it because you think I am actually mafia and every convenience just works out for me as mafia. Yet he says he is 70-80% sure I am mafia... Just wow...
-Pie follows the flow for the investigation. Banana probably intentionally skipped out on it.
Hey you got me here. Evil old banana, laughing maniacally and twisting my invisible evil villain mustache as I purposely just have an actual life away from you nerds. I was probably watching netflix or something, but no, as you say, yeah totally intentional. Literally don't even know how to respond to this without laughing at the absurdity of it.
Banana claims to have blocked Earth, but doesn't push it much.
You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true. I roleblocked him because as I said at the time, there was still some people holding lingering doubt about him, and if I potentially stopped a night kill we would have confirmation he was lying. It was a safe action that had nothing to do with me reading him as suspicious and didn't risk blocking a town power role. It seemed like a good option and I stand by my decision to do it. I was more sure of earth as town after doing so. Why would I "push" a town read?
Conclusion?
Anyways the following post is more of his story in detail, but I feel like I have responded to everything relevant here. I don't see the point in responding to hypothetical actions he thinks I would take because he randomly and arbitrarily decided that everything I have done in this game as some evil twist to it. I think that is very clear and spells itself out with his narrative spinning here.
The question is: Why go to the length to narrative spin and move the goal post of my actual intentions if he actually considered me to be town? I don't really buy ceru doing this as town, and for the record, I don't even recall ceru ever scum reading me prior to this actual day phase. But now out of nowhere he is just 70-80% sure I am mafia? How? Why? He attacked whiteflame earlier in the phase, whiteflame bit back hard, and now he is going for what he feels will be the easier lynch to push. Plain and simple. Ceru isn't approaching this from an angle that demonstrates he lacks information and is trying to solve anything here. He is coming from an angle of "We need to lynch someone, and I want to take the path of least resistance". I'll admit, I am that path. I don't know enough about this game to fully defend myself against a lot of the lingo and jargon he uses. All I can do it point out the clear narrative spinning.
At this point I think though I am pretty decided that it is probably ceru is who mafia, based on how hard he is trying to push me while claiming he isn't sure I am scum, but painting my literal every action as suspicious. Especially when I literally blocked a mafia day phase one. So I'll put my money where my mouth is and...
VTL ceru.
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@Cerulean
@iamanabanana
Alright, thanks for the detailed thoughts. I didn’t see you online for a while, hence my last post.
Cerulean, I’m tagging you on this since the last post wasn’t tagged and it’s our first vote. Giving you the last word before I make a decision.
Ah.
No point in waiting to cross, I suppose.
VTL Banana
I'm going to assume you're not slowrolling as scum, WF, because that would be cruel and unusual punishment. Let's see what Banana said...
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
Alright, let's go point by point.
He has already decided that I am mafia and is making a case against me to fit his own narrative. Does he do this as town? Whiteflame is by far not confirmed either so it makes no sense for him to do this. This is why I think cerulean is probably mafia and trying to go for me, the weaker, easier target. I don't know all the terminology and mafia lingo so he thinks he can bully me into getting lynched because of this. He might be right, but I am going to go down fighting!
Most of this is an appeal to emotion. But more importantly, I explicitly left the door open for you to tell me why I'm wrong. I offered to explain anything that might be confusing. The reason I wrote a lengthy narrative is because the roles in this game are kind of weird and there's a lot of mechanical info to trudge through, so I assembled the solve/explanation that made the most sense to me both mechanically and socially.
If you look at the mafia guide posted by earth the roles listed there are: Goon, Godfather, Stalker, Politician, Lawyer, and Busdriver." So unless you thought I was going to claim any of those roles, it was fairly obvious that I was claiming Roleblocker very early from my first post.
Bus Driver is a villager role (Transporter) in Town of Salem, which is a pretty popular Mafia site. It's not unreasonable to me that if you were going to claim something in the "scum role" list, you could leave the door open for that possibility. The last game I had here, there was a JOAT with a Bus Driver charge, so it's certainly plausible.
As of right now the POE is still the same, whiteflame, and pie were not on the lynch. We know pie was mafia and whiteflame's alignment is still up in the air, so from my POV this is still a town move to vote 0 here.
Your last POE that you posted in Day 1 was Owen, WF, Pie, Casey. You also explicitly said you had a problem with Casey a couple of posts later. Why is this omitted from your explanation?
I literally Roleblocked a mafia member night phase one. And that is an alibi? What?!
...Yes? Because by doing that, it would be a soft "Pie couldn't have carried the nightkill last night, meaning he's less likely to be Mafia." Even unstated, the implication is still there. Or at least, it was until Moozer revealed the Strengthen.
And I claimed this immediately in my first post, there was tracking roles at the time that could have caught me in a lie if I was lying. So for your narrative spin to work here, you are operating under the assumption that I got super duper lucky to not be caught by casey, and even luckier still that casey was the night kill target.
Your first post was an hour and a half after Casey claimed her investigation, no luck necessary. If she had claimed something like "Pie wasn't visited last Night," you could've pivoted elsewhere like Earth or Lunatic and say that you were checking to make sure their claims held up.
Hey you got me here. Evil old banana, laughing maniacally and twisting my invisible evil villain mustache as I purposely just have an actual life away from you nerds. I was probably watching netflix or something, but no, as you say, yeah totally intentional. Literally don't even know how to respond to this without laughing at the absurdity of it.
Fine, I'll take the dig at me. But you cast the hammering vote. You knew there would be an investigation. There's hardly an excuse to miss it when it was open for that long.
You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true.
That's exactly the point, that you didn't have any suspicion on Earth even after the block. I'm going to put this one on hold because I actually wanted to write a longer post about it- I think it's a pretty critical point.
I don't even recall ceru ever scum reading me prior to this actual day phase.
My take at the moment is that it's Banana and Pie is also frustrated about them not Playing The Game as much but I haven't done a real close look on how that mech would work yet. It feels like we have enough info to piece it together, though. (Me, Day 3)
By the way, WF read this part, do scum in DART get to talk in their chat after they die? Asking because this is a pretty decent wall for someone's.. first? Second? game.
You keep trying to spin that I ever claimed to have been suspicious of earth. This is just not true.
(This quote, part 2)
Okay, expanding on the Day 3 Earth thing.
Banana had exactly 1 post on Day 3, which is this:
I roleblocked earth, since he didn't have an active role, I figured it might catch him in a lie. But if you are saying you were the night kill, then maybe earth is really town, or the passive mafia role. Can you role block a passive role?
Which, okay, let's break this down.
First "it might catch him in a lie" and "maybe earth is really town" are... usually not something you say about someone you townread. It's still not really clear who you even thought was scum at that point and why you didn't block them instead if you thought Earth was Town all along.
But more importantly, this seems like a pretty heavy TMI (too much information). Banana seems to be flat-out assuming in this post that Lunatic is telling the truth about the BPV. There's no wondering about "Well, maybe I did block Earth from doing the nightkill, and Lunatic is lying..." There's no fleshed out thoughts here, no paranoia, no wondering, Banana's just flat-out saying "Oh, you got attacked? Cool, I guess that's what happened." (That's a little exaggerated, but I hope you understand my point.)
Generally, when you're a newbie Town player, the best thing you can do is be as transparent about your thought process as possible. Because while you may not have the knack for catching and casing scum, you can at least try and make yourself obvious. While I respect that Banana does indeed have a life beyond DART and Mafia, most of the posts she made after Day 1 didn't show any real chain of thought or the sort of messy thinking you would expect from a newb Towny. It's more aligned with a Mafia member who's afraid to post because it's hard to come up with a thought process that looks "real."
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@Cerulean
By the way, WF read this part, do scum in DART get to talk in their chat after they die? Asking because this is a pretty decent wall for someone's.. first? Second? game.
I'm reading it all (and plan to re-read before I make a decision), but yes, scum do get to talk in their chat after they die, as usual. I'll give my thoughts on her post and yours when I'm done reading back through, so I won't comment on this now.
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@whiteflame
I'm intending to sleep in 30-45 minutes because I have an unfortunately early day tomorrow. WF, if you have any last questions for me, ask me soon. Sad that we didn't end up getting a chance to real-time.
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@Cerulean
if Banana is passive and Pie is active, why would Banana claim active? That would get caught out by a Tracker- so I think Banana actually being the JOAT makes more sense.
Doesn't address the chief issue that I mentioned, which was that Banana would have to have held onto her Lawyer all the way to NP3. I don't buy that.
The JOAT abilities: Delay, Lawyer, Frame, Rolecop
It's possible, but that Rolecop is just a straight up guess. Your explanation for what she must have done to have retained the Lawyer this long is a possible but peculiar narrative, especially when you acknowledge the NP2 gap.
The Claim
All this is a matter of how we're reading certain behavioral choices, and everything you've said here has to be true (that Pie would push a scummy fake claim, that they would pretty blatantly softclaim RB or Bus Driver, and that Pie would also instruct Banana to CC) for her to be scum. Again, it's possible, but just because the opportunity existed doesn't mean it's the likeliest way these events play out. The posts themselves don't look nearly as tailored as the strategy you're laying out.
The Investigation Vote: Two and Zero
I just really don't like this reasoning, especially as this is a new mechanic in this game. It doesn't help that you sussed both a vote for 2 and a vote for 0, which essentially makes 2/3 or the possible choices somehow scummy. It's possible that there's a strategy here, but any choice could have been a strategy.
Let's use this point to talk about Bussing Pie Day 1. Banana proposed earlier that bussing Pie on Day 1 is unpairing. This does not really work, because it's fairly basic distancing- but more importantly, pushing a teammate is very common newbie scum behavior.
We continue with all the things that Pie would have to instruct Banana to do, though I'll note that this is not what I'd consider "very common newbie scum behavior", at least not from my experience. If anything, I've seen more newbies just try their best to act like they're ignoring their scum partner. Maybe this is what you'd do, I don't buy that it's what Banana would do.
I would also note that Pie's behavior around Banana's claim was weird. Remember, Pie hard pushed Earth because Miller is apparently a scummy claim. But claiming a role that typically appears as scum gets an "ok ur town" (This post).
So a dismissive townread from a scum player on a newbie player that was being commonly townread is somehow sus? Pie always pushes claimed Millers. He also generally does this with newbies who come off strongly as newbies. It's also just weird that you'd think that Pie would townread his scum partner while telling his scum partner to scumread him.
This is the first mechanical point against Banana- claiming to block Pie. The reasoning is vaguely there, but it's mostly just mirroring what Lunatic was already saying. The idea, presumably, was to have Pie be "roleblocked" as at least a partial alibi. Unfortunately for them, Moozer ruined that.
I don't understand this. If your scenario is right, Moozer ruined nothing because Pie pretended to be Silenced anyway. Maybe it would have affected them DP3, but I don't really see how it's that dramatic of a problem, since Pie could always have claimed to somehow know he'd been visited by two different people. Instead, he torpedoed himself.
Pie intentionally voted all over the place, presumably including votes on Banana to throw things off. He could've avoided Banana entirely- she was consensus townread, after all- but I imagine this was more distancing by placing votes on almost everyone.
So first he's townreading her for little reason and that's scummy. Then he's VTLing everyone and that's scummy. I guess that's possible, but it's a weird "have your cake and eat it, too" tactic.
LegacyFirst, after Day 1, Banana never had enough posts to trigger it, even though it's fairly powerful.
Explained as well by absence for any number of reasons, not going to sus that. It's a tactical error that I'd frame as anti-town rather than scummy.
Second, it's decidedly different from every other legacy in that it's, well, just a single additional charge of her ability.
I don't get this, either. Your role is distinct. No one else gets to select someone who is already dead. No one else gets to use a role that belongs to someone else. Several of these are, effectively, use a specific role on death, but none of them allow the user to choose a role. Several are just reveals, including mine. Where does yours fit in?
Hammer and InvestigationBanana hammered the vote once again with over an hour to go. To be frank, this is the first part where I actually started sussing Banan.
As someone who did this with Luna, who flipped town, I'm not buying that this makes her scummy.
What's even worse about this, though, is that Banana skipped out on the investigation.
Another "scummy by absentia" claim and another instance of anti-town behavior.
This point is admittedly a little out there, but it pinged me along with the rest of the circumstances there:Roleblocking one of my scum reads tonight.Scum reads, plural, gives a faint implication of knowing that Moozer would flip town. If you weren't sure, you might say something like "Blocking my strongest scumread tonight" or something similar. Even beyond not giving any impression as to who those scumreads are, the phrasing is off.
She still had multiple scumreads by this point. There's a difference between multiple reads and multiple scum.
We have no idea how Banana got from point A (Pie/WF evil) to point B (Cerulean/Earth evil??) because there's no thought process shown in the thread.
You're right, but again, this is you painting a lack of activity as scummy, which doesn't work as a reason to scumread her for me.
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@Cerulean
Sorry, I was writing up my responses and didn't see your post. I'm not looking for responses to the above. I'd like you to focus on this post if you want to respond because this is my main basis for sussing you right now. I wrote this up referencing you in the third person, so bear with me.
There are a bunch of things I don’t like about his role. The reversal of the expected Conditional Vig still sets me off a bit, asdoes the case of Luna standing as a clearly odd instance where the NK itselfoccurs but the effect is delayed (something that should be clarified in his PM,though he didn’t quote it), but that’s less of an issue than what he’s leftout. In particular, two things stand out:
- His legacy role is particularly strange. I haven’tseen him engage with the fact that his legacy role is literally unusable onmost targets. Right now, with 2/3s of the field dead, he would have a choice ofprecisely… two targets: Owen, with his Rolestopper-Inventor, and Moozer, withhis Strengthener. Casey’s useless because he couldn’t deliver Casey’s results. Luna’srole is only useful if you’re still alive. Earth’s is just plain useless. Maybehe could use Pie’s role, but Cerulean has notably not mentioned how his legacyrole interacts with non-flips or with Mafia roles. I find it hard to believe thatAustin would give town any kind of access to scum roles.
- An absence of detail seems like a common flaw. Atno point has he claimed that he didn’t visit his targets, but he’s kind of beenassuming it all along since he hasn’t mentioned how Casey’s role could haveconfirmed him (note: no one else has a role that selects a target but doesn’tvisit them). It’s a minor thing, but it puts me off.
- His softclaim back in DP2 doesn’t make sensebased on what we now know his role to be. He said this back then:
“Me claiming would make my role effectively worthless.”
What, exactly, is it about his claim that makes it “effectivelyworthless”? Unless we assume scum can somehow redirect his choice or somehowmanipulate it, that doesn’t make sense. If he meant that he might become thetarget of the NK NP2 if he had claimed, then a) he could have chosen himself asthe target for the NK and goaded it out, and b) that doesn’t make sense of whyhe’s still alive. If an RB is an odd choice to leave alive, a Conditional Vigwith a dwindling number of plausible targets is even stranger, since they canend the game during the NP. Strange that Cerulean’s never noted that.
I'll vote before I head to bed in a couple of hours, regardless of responses. I feel bad that we're getting to this only at the end and that you're not getting much of a chance to respond because you have an early day, but right now, I'm still sussing you.
Apologies for the spacing on the above. I was writing up thoughts on my read on an external document while typing up my responses, forgot about the copy-paste issue.
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@whiteflame
The very last refresh before I went to sleep. Okay. Last post to hopefully not lose this game, I guess.
His legacy role is particularly strange.
Several of the legacies are pretty underpowered and/or situational, to be honest. Moozer's is minor information that has a good shot of being useless. Lunatic's is completely useless unless someone is janitored/tailored before he dies (which it doesn't even look like scum had?) or unless Pie died first. Owen's is also useless unless both he and his invention targets survive to tell a tale. My point with Banana is that it's the only one that's a direct continuation of the role- all of the others are more creative.
If I may get meta for a second, it doesn't really make sense why Austin would write a rolecard with a justification for why Banana is a Roleblocker... and then write a Legacy justification for why she gets another shot at it later.
An absence of detail seems like a common flaw.
I think there was a misunderstanding, now that I'm more closely reading how you're interpreting my role, and frankly, that's my fault for not being abundantly clear about exactly what it does. What happens is that I choose a target. It is a visit, but I picked Lunatic because I suspected that the Ascetic might have been a bluff and he was actually just Bulletproof. If they are targeted by the Mafia nightkill, I get a bullet, which can be used on a later night. It does not go off the night that I use it. I thought "I get a Vigilante charge." made it clear that it was for the future, not immediate.
- His softclaim back in DP2 doesn’t make sensebased on what we now know his role to be. He said this back then:
“Me claiming would make my role effectively worthless.”
If I were to claim a role like that, I would either get killed (making it worthless) or, I imagine, Mafia would start playing games with the nightkill explicitly to screw with me. That's why I wanted to wait.
(If you want more proof about my claim, I sort of slipped it Day 1 talking about additional nightkills and I also intentionally softed my role type Day 2 when I was talking to Pie.)
that doesn’t make sense of whyhe’s still alive. If an RB is an odd choice to leave alive, a Conditional Vigwith a dwindling number of plausible targets is even stranger, since they canend the game during the NP. Strange that Cerulean’s never noted that.
By Night 3, there wouldn't have been enough time for me to get a shot off if the Mafia was reading my role correctly. And if they were reading it incorrectly like you did, they might have assumed that I would do it with myself as the guess that Night, following my claim. But in any case, I was pretty clearly left alive because almost everyone had an expressed suspicion on me. You said it was me or you. Lunatic said it was me or you. Earth said it was me or Banana. So a scum Banana benefits from killing Earth there and hoping me, you, and Lunatic would fight it out today.
In the end, it comes down to which you think is more believable- scum having a JOAT with investigation disrupting abilities and a Godfather who has a many-use Delay ability (because remember, I would have needed to both delay you N1 and delay Banana N3 in this world), or Pie coaching Banana into making a claim that looks good and Banana coasting on a consensus townread for most of the game until the POE got narrow and the Lawyer was actually necessary. And I think even from an outside perspective, one of these is significantly more convincing than the other.
Good night, and good luck, I suppose.
Fuck it.
At this point, I'm frustrated by mechanical reads. Neither of you ever demonstrated your roles, which is what makes this all the more difficult. I can see a world in which Banana is just told to sit back, not participate much in DP2 because she was widely townread, and then come back later. Behaviorally, if anything, I'm favoring Cerulean.
Both of you have soft claims that narrow the window substantially, but Cerulean's "slip" in DP1 is the weaker of the two - I can see speculation about extra NKs hinting at other scum roles or just a straight up Vig, so he's leaning a lot on a DP2 "soft claim" articulated by a pair of posts asking Pie for details about his role, which isn't really enough by itself. By DP2, I would expect scum have their roles in hand.
It's also really weird that Cerulean would bring up a delay in the use of a Vig charge at this point. I understood that Cerulean was getting a charge, but he never mentioned that it was only usable the following night, so all of a sudden he has a means to justify why he wouldn't claim early because his being the target of the NK means he couldn't use it and it would just go to waste. It's doubly frustrating that he never articulated it as a visit and now seems to be falling into that camp.
So I'm just going to end this. I can see problems with both claims and ways in which both sides could have manipulated my results at just the right times in just the right ways, but in a game with this much town PR, I can see a world in which scum has some significant PR of its own more easily than I can see Banana just nailing all these moments left and right. I also just can't accept all this last minute information from Cerulean that, frankly, should have been stated outright with his claim last DP. Banana, if you did all this, then you did well.
VTL Cerulean
Gg
Gg. I’m glad it wasn’t me in the endgame I would have chose wrong. Good job wf sorry for scum reading you
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@Lunatic
Funny thing is that if Banana and I were scum, I would’ve told Banana to do the exact same thing. Everyone would townread her has noob town
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@Lunatic
It’s all good, dude. I realized deep into the first DP that we were probably just arguing town v. town, mainly because I started recognizing my impulses were pushing me to find anything that made me feel validated rather than seeing the bigger picture. It happens, just glad we didn’t end up pushing it too far.
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@Cerulean
Damn dude you are good, I had you town read the whole game.
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@Lunatic
Interested in your thoughts on balance in endgame
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@Lunatic
@Cerulean
Honestly, up until the claim, I was right there with you. Behaviorally, nothing set me off. He did great, and even got close to convincing me in the end.
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@Lunatic
```
Legacy: In order to prevent such accidents from occurring again, aviation instructors teach the importance of Crew Resource Management, which involves splitting responsibilities between different crew members to prevent any one mistake from spiraling out of control.
Legacy role: Because of this improved communication, if you ever die, then your partner will be given the chance to use one of your unused abilities the following night.
IN ORDER FOR THIS ABILITY TO ACTIVATE, YOU MUST HAVE POSTED AT LEAST 25 (twenty-five) TIMES IN THE LAST DAY.
```
```
Role:
Because the accident was caused by confusion and ambiguity in communication, you are the Role Tampering JOAT with the following abilities (you may use one per night):
Bus Driver [cannot self-target]: Choose two players. Any actions performed on the first player will be redirect to the second, and vice versa.
Janitor: If you perform the factional kill successfully while using this ability, then the role PM of the person killed will not be revealed on death.
Redirector: Choose two players. Any actions performed BY the first player will be redirected to the second player.
Deflector: Choose two players. Any actions performed ON the first player will be redirected to the second player.
In addition, because the investigation was hampered by the sheer complexity, scale, and desire by KLM Airlines to avoid blame for the accident, you are the N2 Actress. On Night 2, you may target another player. If investigated, you will investigate as that role; on death, you will flip as that role.
```
——————————
Role:
Because the probable cause of the accident was never conclusively determined (or rather, agreed on) by investigators, you are flipless; if you ever die, your alignment and role will not be revealed.
In addition, because many people believe that the pilots managed to escape the legal consequences of their own negligence, you are a 2-shot Universal Godfather. The first two times you are investigated, you will investigate as if you were a Vanilla Townie. In case of more of than one investigation, the more incriminating one will be neutralized.
Legacy: As a consequence of this accident, training and conditions for air traffic controllers, who play crucial roles in aviation safety but are often underpaid and undertrained, was improved around the world. In addition, training to emphasize the important of paying attention to TCAS is now standardized for all pilots.
Legacy role: Because of this improved training, if you ever die, then the following night your partner’s abilities and factional kill will be unstoppable.
IN ORDER FOR THIS ABILITY TO ACTIVATE, YOU MUST HAVE POSTED AT LEAST 25 (twenty-five) TIMES IN THE LAST DAY.
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@whiteflame
Cerulean was lynched by a vote of 2-1 over Banana… he was guilty.
Go ahead and lock the thread, Whiteflame.
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@Lunatic
I’ll also mention that fake claiming was next to impossible this game. Cause you had to find a Crash on Mayday, that fits with a fake role and a fake legacy role.