I've got a class to teach, I'll get back to this afterward.
Mayday Mafia DP4
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@whiteflame
I actually believed both you and Casey were town, so I chose both of you with the intent of ruling you out entirely and seeing if Moozer was scum.
So why did you say 2 for the post lynch investigation? If you thought Casey and I were Town, and you've apparently been townreading Banana since Day 1, did you think the team was exactly Earth/Lunatic in that moment?
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@Cerulean
Wrong, actually. We know there's "a passive role that allows them to appear innocent to investigations." That could be a Godfather, but it doesn't have to be. If Austin meant Godfather, he could have just said Godfather. There's a reason it was asked on Day 3 what passive role might exist. If it was guaranteed, that wouldn't be a question he asked.
This just seems like nitpicking at this point. It may not have to be Godfather, but it's functionally Godfather. And given how some of the modding has gone this game, I'd say the question being asked isn't indicative of the Godfather not being here.
We're talking about a team that contains Pie, who pretended to be silenced and fake claimed Innocent Child. Why is it completely out of the question for him to have told Banana to claim Roleblocker?
I didn't say it's out of the question. I said I don't believe it. It's hard to know how Banana would play as scum without seeing it in previous games, but I just don't buy that she'd play this way as scum. If you have good reasons to sus her, go ahead and give them. I haven't voted you yet because I wanted this chance to talk it out.
This is flat out untrue. You're telling me you've never played or hosted a game where a role had unnecessary details that widens claim space for scum? You've never had a game where "They will die unless protected" without protective roles was stated in a role card? I can look at quite literally the last game here and pull an example:If you ever die in the night, all lethal actions in the subsequent night will be negated. (Martyr role, Indian Politicians Mafia)There were no killing roles in that game besides the Mafia. By the logic in your case, "all" could be considered misleading because there was only every one possible lethal action per night.
On here? I guess I've seen some oddities, but never like this. Using a role that specifically modifies results from two different informational roles and then just leaving out one of those informational roles is not something I've seen before. Also, your example contains a very obvious reason for the Martyr role to exist in that game: the Mafia NK. The absence of a Vig in that game isn't misleading because there was still one possible lethal action per night, as you pointed out. Hell, that was my role. I was NK'd and my role activated. The only way your argument makes sense here is if you think it's plausible for scum to have a an alignment cop. Role cop, yes, but I've never heard of that one before.
Sure, but that would put you in a 1f1 with someone, and with Lunatic on you pretty much at all times this game, that wouldn't be a very good outcome.
By this logic, I fabricated my role and refused to do anything with it, since I faked being RB'd NP1. I guess that's one view of WIFOM, but it's pretty baffling to draft this role and then refuse to take any advantage of it.
Why is this an "I guess"? The term "Conditional" is pretty clearly open to multiple different potential conditions, so I don't see any reason why you're sussing that my condition isn't identical to Joebob's from a different game with a different host.
I was pretty clear as to why.
I didn't quote my role PM exactly because we're... not supposed to do that? Regardless, you can figure out pretty intuitively what it's supposed to mean with respect to Lunatic's role. It's guessing the target of the Night Kill. So Casey, then Lunatic, then Earth would be the correct answers. I did double check with Austin because I guessed Lunatic was going to get killed (due to being semi-confirmed by the BPV and frankly by pushing Pie), and I wanted to be sure that was why it didn't go off. You didn't bother to even ask me about this before throwing an accusation.
It's pretty convenient that you explain this after Luna's flip, dude. I wasn't looking for a copy-paste, but given that this should have been present in your PM, I would have expected to see you give some of this detail, or at the very least, the specific wording that it's "the target of the Night Kill" as opposed to "whoever is killed on a given night." And yes, I posted that I sussed you over this without asking you directly about it. I also tagged you on the post and haven't voted you yet, so I gave you a chance to answer for it.
Uh-huh. And tell me, which one of those kills would you have nailed?
I can't know how I would have played in your shoes. My goal is not to tell you I could have done better, it's to point out that the way you've used your role resulted in it never being confirmed. We essentially have nothing to go on for you besides your claim.
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@Cerulean
In any case, the narrative against me falls flat because it doesn't fit if I'm the active Mafia and it doesn't fit if I'm the passive Mafia. And we know there's one of each because the info outright said:Scum have a passive role (Godfather, Ninja, or something like that) that allows them to appear innocent to investigations. In addition, they have an active role (the JOAT, presumably) capable of causing false investigative reports.
I don't think a Ninja suffices for the passive role, since it specifically says "appear innocent to investigations" rather than "not show up on investigations."
The initial case you gave was that I was passive:That makes it very likely that he's the Godfather (Pie was likely Lawyered NP2, so they both looked investigated innocent based on their roles).because you investigated me as Innocent twice. But if that's the case and I was passive, how could I possible have killed on Night 3? I would have been roleblocked, unless you're specifically trying to say that I investigate as innocent and I'm roleblock immune, which is extremely powerful when Town power is significantly concentrated in roleblocks.
Yes, and I still think it's possible. Note that we have a game where there are two town investigative JOATs and multiple town RB's. We know there's one JOAT, and one Godfather or equivalent. I could see a world in which the Godfather has a passive and an active role, which might include a multi-use role like the one that was used on me that delays the results of a given action by one NP. I also doubt that you would be Godfather and Roleblock immune. I admittedly tend to see a Godfather with only that role, but it's not impossible given the setup we have.
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@Cerulean
I actually believed both you and Casey were town, so I chose both of you with the intent of ruling you out entirely and seeing if Moozer was scum.So why did you say 2 for the post lynch investigation? If you thought Casey and I were Town, and you've apparently been townreading Banana since Day 1, did you think the team was exactly Earth/Lunatic in that moment?
I've tried reading through this response a couple of times and I'm still struggling to understand it. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you ask "why did you say 2 for the post lynch investigation?" This is the post where I gave my investigation results:
Second, I was not actually RB'd as I believed. I was told by Austin that my Dreamer action failed, but I received results for it NP2. I had picked Cerulean, Casey and Moozer, like I said before, and it was confirmed that none of the three investigated as scum. Frustrating to receive it late, not sure what role does that.
I mentioned all three of you, and said that none of you investigated as scum. By NP1, I believed Moozer was scum. I was sussing him and Luna, chiefly, though I had my issues with believing they were a team and thought my read on Luna had more to do with our prolonged back-and-forth.
In any case, I'm taking a minute. I wish we had Pie's flip, since it would clear a lot up, but here we are.
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@whiteflame
I've tried reading through this response a couple of times and I'm still struggling to understand it. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you ask "why did you say 2 for the post lynch investigation?" This is the post where I gave my investigation results:
The post lynch investigation as in the one Austin ran asking how many scum were on the wagon. You said there were two on the wagon when it was Me/Casey/Earth/Lunatic/Banana.
Owen (5/5): Casey, Earth, Banana, Cerulean, LunaLuna (1/5): Moozer...How many scum were on the final lynch wagon?
Sorry, didn't see that the DP had ended.Gonna say two.
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@Cerulean
The post lynch investigation as in the one Austin ran asking how many scum were on the wagon. You said there were two on the wagon when it was Me/Casey/Earth/Lunatic/Banana.
Ah, sorry about that, I keep forgetting these.
I did say there were two scum on the wagon, but I was mistrusting my own reads at that point and felt like I was off about either Moozer or Luna and I wasn't sure which. It didn't help that I wasn't in the best headspace when I realized the DP had ended before I could post.
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@Cerulean
In any case, it's late and I'm going to give this some more thought. I'll give my last thoughts and then leave off for the night.
Cerulean, I think you have a point with regards to you being both the Godfather and somehow having an answer for the RB. I don't love that you framed it as somehow being both Godfather and RB-proof, the latter of which I never suggested and seems tailored to make the argument sound more ridiculous, but I can at least see where you are coming from. I have, however, noted that you have not mentioned who your target was this past NP. I know you were RB'd, but you really should be providing as much information as possible at this point.
As for Banana, the main thing that's holding me back is actually her very first post. I'd have to believe that, from her very first post in this game, she was presenting her fake claim under the guise that she was "assured by the moderator that [she is] town" and that when she looked it up on Earth's guide, she found it "under Mafia Roles." I'd also have to believe she was actively sussing her scum partner by the end of the DP. There's a possibility that she was just coached to do it and has pulled it off very well, but that's not my read of those posts or many of her other posts.
If she is scum, she'd have to be the Godfather (I doubt she just saved the Lawyer for NP3). Her claim to have RB'd Pie shortly after Casey faked his Inspector on Pie seemed a bit convenient (fulfilling the visit and easy enough to fake an RB with Pie feigning Silence), as did her choice of Earth the following NP since, as scum, she would have known it wouldn't have registered for him. So it's mainly a matter of whether I believe she was coached into those early plays.
Is there any conceivable reason my roleblock wouldn't have worked on Cerulean?
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@iamanabanana
If you're Town, the only way it could have failed is if I'm exactly a Godfather who also has either a higher priority roleblock or some kind of immunity. Which would be pretty powerful when Pie would have also been a JOAT in that world.
Banana, can you remind me what your legacy role is? I don't think you've ever said it, but I might have forgotten and I'm not keen on searching through every phase at the moment.
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@whiteflame
My main issue with this Banana Town case is that it inherently relies on underestimating not just Banana, but the hypothetical Banana/Pie team. Lunatic would be able to tell you that pairing a newbie wolf with a very experienced wolf creates a dangerous situation for town, he played a champs game where that exact thing happened (I can show you if you want). Which is why I dislike cases solely based on "This person is unable to fake that thing."
I'm about to start work so I can't write out the full Banana scum case that's floating around in my head, but it's there and in my opinion it makes more sense both mechanically and socially than the WF scum world.
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@Cerulean
If you're Town, the only way it could have failed is if I'm exactly a Godfather who also has either a higher priority roleblock or some kind of immunity. Which would be pretty powerful when Pie would have also been a JOAT in that world.
Again, while I agree that the existence of a Godfather with an active role besides is not something I would consider common or super likely, I don't really like that your response to this idea is consistently to push it further to make it sound more ludicrous. As scum, you would not need "a higher priority roleblock or some kind of immunity." In every game I've seen, scum have priority. That's a given. And I already know (because it was used on me) that scum have a role that puts a time delay on the use of a role. It's a given that scum have such a role and it's not some absurd PR to add onto a Godfather. The question is: does the remaining scum have that role or did Pie have it?
My main issue with this Banana Town case is that it inherently relies on underestimating not just Banana, but the hypothetical Banana/Pie team. Lunatic would be able to tell you that pairing a newbie wolf with a very experienced wolf creates a dangerous situation for town, he played a champs game where that exact thing happened (I can show you if you want). Which is why I dislike cases solely based on "This person is unable to fake that thing."
I didn't say it was impossible, but I've seen scum/newbie teams before and, generally speaking, I haven't seen a case where the newbie in question has executed this well on all these fronts and simultaneously hasn't posted anything else that looks scummy. I'm not dismissing the possibility entirely, but the combination of the early softclaim, the bussing, and the pseudo-CC at the start of DP2 is a lot for me to just write off as "Pie coached her really well."
I'm about to start work so I can't write out the full Banana scum case that's floating around in my head, but it's there and in my opinion it makes more sense both mechanically and socially than the WF scum world.
I'll wait.
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@iamanabanana
Also, I don't know if anyone else is experiencing this problem, but I'm not always receiving emails when I get tagged (e.g. this past response from Cerulean), so I might not respond quickly unless I'm watching the page.
We've got time to talk this out, and while you are still new to this and there's a lot to consider, it's worth posting your thoughts even if they're only half-formed regarding which of us you think is scum. Also, I don't believe you have claimed your legacy role yet. Truth be told, neither have I, so I'll spill it. If I died during a NP where I performed an investigation, Austin would have announced my results publicly the next day.
My legacy role is I have a 1x roleblock I can use after death
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@Cerulean
I don't understand how you can pair me with pie at all, considering he was one of my top scum reads in day phase one.
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@whiteflame
Also, I don't know if anyone else is experiencing this problem, but I'm not always receiving emails when I get tagged (e.g. this past response from Cerulean), so I might not respond quickly unless I'm watching the page.We've got time to talk this out, and while you are still new to this and there's a lot to consider, it's worth posting your thoughts even if they're only half-formed regarding which of us you think is scum. Also, I don't believe you have claimed your legacy role yet. Truth be told, neither have I, so I'll spill it. If I died during a NP where I performed an investigation, Austin would have announced my results publicly the next day.
My thoughts are this: I feel like you are town because earth's role doesn't make any sense if yours doesn't exist. Or does it? I am repeating the narrative I have heard a few times but it seems reasonable that millers don't exist in game's where there aren't cops. So it seems weird that earths role would exist if yours didn't.
I am obviously caught up on the fact that I roleblocked cerulean though, however and the night kill wasn't stopped. I asked austin if my action was successful or not, and he said he couldn't provide feedback unless I was provided a result. So if something happened to impede my action, I have no way of knowing that, but that would be my only case against you is that I roleblocked cerulean, and a night kill happened. That's why I have been so insistent on knowing if there are role's that can "Trump" or mess with a roleblock that you or anyone know of?
Because to be honest I find it weird that I am still alive, and if mafia have a role that can stop me or prevent me, they wouldn't be worried leaving me alive, and might hope to use my information to get them a mis-lynch. In other words it feels a little bit too easy for you to be scum here, and I am skeptical of the idea that I was just left to my own devices. If that makes sense.
Behaviorally I had town read cerulean before this, but now it seems like she has come into this day phase ready to lynch me, it seems like she had an agenda planned out for this and it seems to be based on very little. That's all I got for now. Right now I am leaning cerulean being the mafia member because of otherwise earths role doesn't make any sense.
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@iamanabanana
I am obviously caught up on the fact that I roleblocked cerulean though, however and the night kill wasn't stopped. I asked austin if my action was successful or not, and he said he couldn't provide feedback unless I was provided a result. So if something happened to impede my action, I have no way of knowing that, but that would be my only case against you is that I roleblocked cerulean, and a night kill happened. That's why I have been so insistent on knowing if there are role's that can "Trump" or mess with a roleblock that you or anyone know of?
Based on my experience, scum definitely have a role that can delay the effects of a night action by one NP, it's mainly a question of whether Pie had it or his partner does. It would almost certainly be able to mess with your role since scum actions generally have priority unless otherwise stated. As for this:
Because to be honest I find it weird that I am still alive, and if mafia have a role that can stop me or prevent me, they wouldn't be worried leaving me alive, and might hope to use my information to get them a mis-lynch. In other words it feels a little bit too easy for you to be scum here, and I am skeptical of the idea that I was just left to my own devices. If that makes sense.
Scum essentially had two choices: take out Earth or you. Earth was the Universal Miller and was openly townreading me, so he would have been a terrible choice to leave alive since the DP just would have ended. There was a risk with your role, which they were apparently willing to take (probably would have done the same myself, independent of their role, tbh).
My legacy role is I have a 1x roleblock I can use after death
That's akin to mine, anyway. Would you have been able to use this only in the following DP or could you have banked it and used it anytime?
About 36 hours remain in the day.
For reference, I am counting from when I unlocked the thread, plus another hour.
I am here and writing my case out. Thanks for waiting.
I suppose I'll do this Game Theory style and start with the story that I'm proposing and then go back and explain why it makes sense. It goes like this:
-Pie and Banana roll scum. Pie is some sort of Godfather, Banana is the JOAT. We can't say exactly what kind of JOAT, but something like x1 Delay, x1 Lawyer, x1 Framer, and I suspect something like a Rolecop.
-Pie tells Banana to act like her role is a wolf one. We can't be sure if they committed to Banana being a Roleblocker early or if they wanted to leave the door open for a different role that's scum on the Guide, like Bus Driver.
-There may have been some discussion in the scum chat, but Pie presumably also tells Banana to go for the Roleblocker claim after Owen claimed Inventor Rolestopper.
-The Day ends with a lynch on Owen. Both Pie and Banana give the Two answer to throw off the investigation.
-That Night, Casey is killed and Whiteflame is delayed. We can't really say for sure who did what, but I don't think it matters.
-The next Day, Pie pretends to be silenced in the hopes that it will get him townread. Banana claims to have blocked Pie as an alibi for Pie.
-The pair lets the Day go with the Town mostly being wrong with Moozer and WF, with Pie egging on the Moozer vote a bit and Banana staying under the radar.
-Pie follows the flow for the investigation. Banana probably intentionally skipped out on it.
-That Night, Lunatic is attacked and I'm rolecopped.
-The next Day, Pie sees that Lunatic survives and... probably flips out, in combination with the sheer amount of info we got from the Day 2 vote and the fact that I'm a Conditional Vigilante.
-Banana claims to have blocked Earth, but doesn't push it much.
-Pie is lynched.
-That Night, Banana self-Lawyers and kills Earth.
-We are now up to the present.
Minor mistake, Banana voted 0 on the post investigation vote, not 2. Mixed them up with Moozer, I think.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
Okay, going back to explain things.
The Scum Team: Banana JOAT, Pie Godfather
I know, WF, you said that you thought Banana would have to be the Godfather in that scenario, but I'm not so sure. The main issue with that argument is because of the claims- if Banana is passive and Pie is active, why would Banana claim active? That would get caught out by a Tracker- so I think Banana actually being the JOAT makes more sense.
The JOAT abilities: Delay, Lawyer, Frame, Rolecop
This is a point that I am admittedly less certain on. In a scum Banana world, WF was delayed on Night 1 and Banana was Lawyered on Night 3. But I'm not sure exactly what happened on Night 2- a Frame isn't very useful there because the most likely suspected investigation from WF would have been Banana/Pie/Cerulean (since Lunatic was claiming Ascetic and Earth was claiming Miller). Framing me there would make that show 2 scum, which is dangerous when both are in fact in there. So my thought is either 1) Banana didn't actually do anything that night or 2) Banana had another ability- like a Rolecop, maybe something else?- that she used in the meantime while framing wasn't useful.
The Claim
The big sticking point and best reason to townread Banana is the Roleblocker claim. But it's frankly not as impressive as it seems. There are multiple possibilities here, but scum presumably had some time to come up with fake claims- and one good way to fake claim for a newbie scum is to pick something that just slightly strains the bounds of credibility, like a role that's usually scum. I'm not sure if they committed to Roleblocker or tried leaving the door open for other roles on the guide. But in any case, the counterclaim isn't particularly compelling either because there was a 1 hour gap between Owen's claim and Banana's counterclaim. That's plenty of time for (probably mainly Pie) the scum team to decide to commit and go for it. Again, it's something that slightly strains the boundaries of credibility without being so insane that it's a straight-up 1 for 1 with Owen.
The Investigation Vote: Two and Zero
I did make a mistake on this in my "story." Banana said zero, not two. This is still a little bit off, because if we consider the Owen death, that means Banana's POE at the time was Whiteflame, Pie, and Casey- one is strictly mathematically better if they all have equal odds. But more importantly, the thing here is that both of them picked different wrong answers. While that's true that all of us were wrong, Banana's choice doesn't align because she was different from Pie. It can easily be a form of distancing, because it looks like that was the team's Day 1 plan.
Let's use this point to talk about Bussing Pie Day 1. Banana proposed earlier that bussing Pie on Day 1 is unpairing. This does not really work, because it's fairly basic distancing- but more importantly, pushing a teammate is very common newbie scum behavior. Anecdotally, I know this because I did it when I was a newbie scum and I've seen it happen several times. But in general, it's about TMI. It's easier to soft push a teammate and look for reasons to justify that because you know it's true. Also, I would point out that there was essentially no danger to Pie on Day 1 as a result of that push- the thread was focused on Moozer and Owen, and Banana had no real threadpull.
I would also note that Pie's behavior around Banana's claim was weird. Remember, Pie hard pushed Earth because Miller is apparently a scummy claim. But claiming a role that typically appears as scum gets an "ok ur town" (This post).
So why have Banana scumread Pie and Pie townread Banana? To me, the logic is most likely in the threadpull- Pie was essentially leading thread, so if he didn't want Banana under the magnifying glass, he could direct thread away. And that's exactly what happened.
The Night Actions
This is the first mechanical point against Banana- claiming to block Pie. The reasoning is vaguely there, but it's mostly just mirroring what Lunatic was already saying. The idea, presumably, was to have Pie be "roleblocked" as at least a partial alibi. Unfortunately for them, Moozer ruined that.
Silenced
Pie pretending to be silenced was... weird, for sure. It was one of those Refuge in Audacity plays, and it did work, mostly because Moozer and WF were feeling the pressure for a lot of the Day. The scum team didn't need to exert too much force on Day 2 because of that. Lunatic was the only one who really pressured or put heavy suspicion on Pie. Pie intentionally voted all over the place, presumably including votes on Banana to throw things off. He could've avoided Banana entirely- she was consensus townread, after all- but I imagine this was more distancing by placing votes on almost everyone.
Legacy
There's no real amazing place in the order of events to talk about Banana's legacy, so I guess I'll put it here in the Day 2 section. I have two issues with it. First, after Day 1, Banana never had enough posts to trigger it, even though it's fairly powerful. Second, it's decidedly different from every other legacy in that it's, well, just a single additional charge of her ability. Every other legacy is something at least slightly creative (depending on whatever Pie's is), yes? We have:
-Owen: Send a note to someone you gave an invention to.
-Casey: Treestump the next Day.
-Moozer: Reveal the total number of deaths.
-Lunatic: Reveal a modified flip.
-Earth: Protect someone from death.
Then the claimed ones:
-WF: Your investigation last Night is public.
-Cerulean: You can use a charge of an ability from a dead player.
-Banana: You can use your ability one more time.
Banana's doesn't really fit compared to all the others- none of them are as simple as "Use your own ability again." Even mine is choosing someone else's ability.
Hammer and Investigation
Banana hammered the vote once again with over an hour to go. To be frank, this is the first part where I actually started sussing Banan. Because Banana hammered Moozer (without ever having a stated scumread there) essentially in the middle of a discussion. And this was after I had very clearly expressed that I intended to vote Moozer eventually and was in the middle of still doing things (Yes, I am still a little mad about that). So the excuse of "I wanted to make sure there was a lynch" does not hold water.
What's even worse about this, though, is that Banana skipped out on the investigation. I think this was another audacity play, frankly, to try and skew the investigation. Because, realistically, it doesn't make sense for Banana to hammer and then somehow miss the investigation that came only 20 minutes later and was open for 2 hours.
Finally, on this point, I suspect there was a little TMI leak in what Banana said after the hammer vote. This point is admittedly a little out there, but it pinged me along with the rest of the circumstances there:
Roleblocking one of my scum reads tonight.
Scum reads, plural, gives a faint implication of knowing that Moozer would flip town. If you weren't sure, you might say something like "Blocking my strongest scumread tonight" or something similar. Even beyond not giving any impression as to who those scumreads are, the phrasing is off.
Banana's POV
At Start of Day 2, Banana's POV was presumably exactly Pie/WF- her End of Day 1 POE was Owen/Casey/Pie/WF, and two of those were dead. This was supported by Banana posting against Pie and voting against WF. The last thing Banana did before the hammer vote, though, was voting me for my role. And considering she supposedly blocked Earth the next Night, she must have been scumreading him too... except there's absolutely no evidence of Banana's attitude changing. We have no idea how Banana got from point A (Pie/WF evil) to point B (Cerulean/Earth evil??) because there's no thought process shown in the thread.
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@whiteflame
@iamanabanana
...Am I screaming into the void? I hope not.
I'm going to bed, I'll finish this tomorrow morning (All hail work from home days). Hit me with your responses or questions.
Banana, in the off chance you're Town, your job at this exact moment is to convince me why I'm wrong and stupid and tunneling you horrendously.
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@Cerulean
I'm considering it. I'd like to get Banana's response to all this before giving my thoughts.
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@whiteflame
@Cerulean
Banana, in the off chance you're Town, your job at this exact moment is to convince me why I'm wrong and stupid and tunneling you horrendously.
Wow.. Okay so you posted a lot. I'll admit I don't 100% know what all the terminology and roles you have mentioned are, so I can't argue much of this because I simply just don't understand a lot of the lingo. My main point to respond here is "Why is Ceru so confident I am mafia?" She threw some rocks at whiteflame, found out he bites back, goes for the easier target? From my POV both of you were just as likely to be mafia. I do notice a lot of narrative spinning though. Everything that he writes is crafted to make every action or lack of action intentionally heinous, and I am asking, if you really were town, how would you know 100% that I am scum? Notice how Cerulean has to paint every aspect of the story his way to cater to his narrative that I am mafia.
Primary example, at first he thinks I voted there was two mafia and uses this as an argument that I acted similarly to pie, and was trying to "throw off the investigation". Then he finds out that he made a mistake, sees that I actually voted 0 and pie voted 2, and now I am "Distancing" myself from pie?! Okay so no matter what I chose, you painted me in a corner that I am suspicious no matter what action I chose. You see my point here? Anyways I will try to respond a little more in depth when I have a second, but this is going to be my ultimate point; Look how many hoops ceru is jumping through to paint my literal every action as suspicious. If he was town he should be considering that whiteflame is just as much as an option for mafia as me. The fact that he seems so sure it's me shows he has no intention of considering another option. Look how he phrased the above "In the off chance your town", yeah , right, in the off chance huh. So you want me to defend myself against someone who already has there mind made up. None of this is hard proof or anything, so why would he be this convinced that I am mafia unless he was just looking for what he thinks is an easy target? I'll admit I am the easier target here. I don't know half the things he is talking about. Still, I will do my best to respond to the stuff I can soon.
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@Cerulean
@iamanabanana
Alright, since I gave Cerulean time to post a lot, I'm going to give Banana the same, though note that we only have limited time remaining (roughly 18 hours by my count), so do not delay too long.
Taking into account what I've seen from both of you, Cerulean seems to be pretty clear that he's sussing Banana, so at this point, he should be putting up a vote, especially if he sees me as pretty solid town since there's no risk that I'll just hammer out of nowhere. Banana still seems split (pun intended) between us, so I understand why a lack of trust may lead her to be more concerned about putting up a vote.
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@iamanabanana
I don't know half the things he is talking about. Still, I will do my best to respond to the stuff I can soon.
I can explain things if you ask. I admit I sort of went into case-writing mode without considering the audience properly.
Notice how Cerulean has to paint every aspect of the story his way to cater to his narrative that I am mafia.
I do feel the need to clarify that there's a different between points that explain why your actions make sense from a scum perspective and points that explain why your behavior is scummy in the first place. "Banana is the JOAT and Pie is the Godfather" isn't a reason you're scummy, it's an explanation of why the world in which you're scum isn't contradictory, if that makes sense. "Banana showed up to hammer Moozer in the middle of a conversation and then disappeared for the investigation" is a reason why you're scummy to me, for instance.
sees that I actually voted 0 and pie voted 2, and now I am "Distancing" myself from pie?!
My mistake, yes. The point is that 1) You were wrong even though the right answer would have made more sense from the perspective you gave and 2) Frankly, it makes more sense than you voting 2 in a world where you're scum because distancing from Pie is what was going on Day 1, with you scumreading him but not thoroughly pushing him.
how would you know 100% that I am scum?
If I was 100% confident I would have voted you already. I'd put it around 80/20, 70/30, something like that. I think you're significantly more likely to be the scum than WF and I want to know where I'm wrong if I am.
You can say I'm jumping through hoops, but you have to jump through hoops for me to be scum (Because I would have to be a Godfather who also has a multi-shot Delay ability) or for WF to be scum (Because it means the scum were completely avoiding the D1 wagon and that the one angleshoot about WF's result is wrong). The world where you're scum doesn't really require any major or weird mechanical assumptions at all. If it does, tell me how.
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@whiteflame
Taking into account what I've seen from both of you, Cerulean seems to be pretty clear that he's sussing Banana, so at this point, he should be putting up a vote, especially if he sees me as pretty solid town since there's no risk that I'll just hammer out of nowhere.
I'd rather give Banana time to respond first. I know I wrote a whole long case out, but saying I'm 100% certain that Banana is scum isn't quite correct. I have bad tunnel vision sometimes, and I'd rather not possibly throw the game to you and get my ear chewed off by Lunatic post-game because I didn't at least give her a shot to explain things.
Speaking of time remaining, is there some time today where all three of us will be around to real-time? That would be ideal, in my opinion. I don't recall if I've mentioned my schedule at all, but I'm in EST (8:52 AM as of this post) and I'll be around pretty much until I go to sleep (approx. 10-11 PM, which is 3-4 hours before EOD if I remember right).
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@Cerulean
@iamanabanana
I'm in EST too (nice coincidence there). I've got work for much of the morning, so real time discussion will likely have to wait for the afternoon/evening unless that's not an option for Banana at this point, in which case I can shove things aside for a bit to have it now. In any case, given the short timeframe, I agree that it would be best if we could have this discussion in real time. Hopefully we can make that happen, but if we haven't settled on a time by, say, the early afternoon today our time, then we need to start wrapping this up and making our calls.