The liberal plan to screw workers

Author: WyIted
Democrat
liberal
Limousine liberal

Posts

Total: 48
Topic's author
#1
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
So I have this thread up which explains why old money tends to vote democrat for some back ground. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11772-why-old-money-votes-democrat

History buff mentioned that my conclusion makes no sense, because rich people would want to pay workers less, but I will explain the incentive structure soon. 

what moderates left and right agree on

Moderate boring idiots on the left and right, essentially your Bush/Clinton types have this theory that in order to have a capitalist society you need a strong social safety net in terms of minimum wage, subsidies etc. 

The reason this part of the theory was developed is because occasionally the working class in the past has revolted and the results of even the revolts that fail is the wealthy elite end up with their heads on pikes. 

So the wealthy do like to make money, but they also realize that to continue making money they have to be alive so they throw the poor and working class a bone. 

The moderates put it as needing a strong safety net to prevent people from rebelling at the ballot box. These same moderates also think or at least publicly state that socialist/communist societies fail because they don't have that strong capitalist engine to provide a safety net. So this is a circular thing. To have a poor population that can still have its bread and circuits, you need a strong capitalist system to peal those benefits off of.

tying this together

what this means is that the wealthy elite to keep the plebs (thats you)  happy (meaning not homicidal) they need to push for things like strong social safety nets. 

The more knowledgeable leftists which this site lacks often criticize the welfare state as hiding the flaws of capitalism and keeping the proletariat subdued. The Laissez Faire Libertarian types really don't care or don't realize that without the social safety nets and with new players to compete with old money, you have a destabilizing effect on society.

So this is why you will see the nuevo rich often side with the right. Also what is known as the petty   bourgeoisie will often side with the right, those are your small shop keepers, people who own painting businesses etc. They are either small players in the game or too new to the game to realize that the destabilization they used to make their money is also the same type of destabilization that can come right back and smack them in the face.

what to do

so What does the old money do? They ccan't get rid of a social safety net in fact they prefer it there because it keeps them safe, they can’t roll back the minimum wage for the same exact reason. 

The next best thing they can do to is start importing a bunch of cheap labor into the country.

Another tactic they also use besides importing cheap labor is that they will often pretend there are nursing or doctor shortages. Any time you see a career that pays well, the old money will start flooding your local papers with stories of shortages. It happened with nurses and truck  drivers and if you are wondering why it is harder to get 6 figures after studying for a year or 2 to program a computer, it is because the old money has petitioned the government to start flooding the cou try with much cheaper Indian labor.

This is the game folks. 
Topic's author
#2
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
So here is the economic part of the motivation behind the old money supporting some leftist policies such as strong social safety nets, mass immigration and trying to get more women I. The work force by shaming them for wanting to spend time raising their kids instead of letting the school and television do it
Topic's author
#3
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
@ADreamOfLiberty
Thoughts on my expert economic analysis of some of the motivations behind champagne socialists
#4
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,898
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@WyIted
Also: Call plebs racists if they complain about imported slave labor. That will work for at least 2 maybe 3 generations.

Question to you: What pressures did Old Money apply to Biden to settle the rail strike with a mandatory go-back-to-work card?
Topic's author
#5
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
I just saw that Chicago gangs were threatening a race war against migrants because they get more Gibs. 

It's pretty hard to control the plebs when their gibs go to immigrants. 

The left is really in for a rude awakening. I know the moderates think they have things under control but if they are wrong the leftists really think catholic Mexican immigrants and the black community is going to care  enough about their war with normal people to actually do shit
Topic's author
#6
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Question to you: What pressures did Old Money apply to Biden to settle the rail strike with a mandatory go-back-to-work card?
They just shake hands bro. No threats. Maybe they promised one of his relatives a nice job
Topic's author
#7
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Less than 2 months until we get the color version of this. I can't wait

https://youtu.be/U9HgdVN9C_k?si=GmdORJAh9JYwVm8h
#8
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,971
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
Forget about taxes on tips, the left doesn’t even want you to get tips. 
#9
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
If one is paid enough then one doesn't need tips.

So in these circumstances tips would be taxable income.

Even if underpaid,  tips are a recognised part of an income and therefore also subject to taxation rules.

Left, Right or Centre...Doesn't really make much difference.


If someone's life choices and innate potential have brought them to a menial job, then that is their status.

Other choices were and still are available, but perhaps not achievable.

Such is natural selection.


Topic's author
#10
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Reece101
Forget about taxes on tips, the left doesn’t even want you to get tips. 
I think the movement against tipping culture crosses party lines but yes it does seem to lean more left and is stupid. Tipping culture has allowed servers the opportunity in some areas to make 75k a year or more. It's just not an opportunity that exists for that job without tipping culture. 
#11
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,127
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@WyIted
Thoughts on my expert economic analysis of some of the motivations behind champagne socialists
I think it's not wrong but it's off target.

Yes it's about controlling the whole society, but their enemy isn't the working class; they know they need only own the press to control them. Those "new money" people are their only real fear. They pursue policies of government control for the same reason cancer patients are given deadly radiation: the bulk of the cells can survive, the cancer has less of a chance.

So Lockheed Martin or Boeing which have thousands of people dedicated to managing government regulations and doing the rain dance for government contracts are slightly hurt by all of that but a startup with a 100 employees can't survive it at all. Even with much better quality product, much more loyal (and well paid) employees, the startup will still eventually fail because of the overhead.

This is true in any heavily regulated industry and doubly true in a heavily regulated industry in which government is a major consumer.

Now "old money" is a generalization, some old money still exists from the age of the self-made inventor/owner and they just did well at maintaining their wealth through stock and bank choices. The vast majority of "champagne socialists" I believe are actively engaged in the thought process I describe and would gladly give "the poor" what "the poor" think they want if they were to retain their choke-hold on competition.

After all they own the means of production. As long as that is true government programs come and get bigger and it doesn't matter because they will always have the biggest faucet.

What they find threatening in the libertarian or new populist right isn't that it attracts working class people it's that it threatens their income sources via deregulation and reduction of government racketeering (big pharma, big military, big aerospace, big education, etc...)


The Laissez Faire Libertarian types really don't care or don't realize that without the social safety nets and with new players to compete with old money, you have a destabilizing effect on society.
Social safety nets have nothing to do with stability. Prosperity makes nations stable. Social safety nets are about individual compassion.
#12
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 354
Posts: 10,547
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@WyIted
The Laissez Faire Libertarian types really don't care or don't realize that without the social safety nets and with new players to compete with old money, you have a destabilizing effect on society.
Look at you, going Marx at us.

Its the social safety nets which are the reason you have mass poverty.

Every social safety nets expense, someone will pay for.

Its like temporary solution which later makes problem worse, sends more people into poverty, causing more need for safety nets, which in turn cause more poverty, which again requires more safety nets.

Its a circle which only repeats itself more.

There was never free market, so probably shouldnt blame free market for problems it couldnt possibly cause, as it didnt even exist.

However, we know that buisnesses compete for workers, and government affects competition by making buisnesses more expensive to run and increasing cost of living.

While there are some bad bosses, workers have free choice to work where ever they want, thus change jobs if they arent being paid enough. It seems silly to complain about something you agreed to and can leave at any point.

Literally, free market works in such way that every buisness has incentive to employ more workers to increase earned profit.

Thus, in free market, anyone can have multiple job opportunities unless he is a horrible worker who refuses to do the job he is paid for.

There are examples of workers being lazy and skipping tasks at workplace, but then they probably shouldnt be surprised that they dont get paid. No one is going to pay someone who does nothing. Simply, if worker does the job, he will get the wage he agreed to get. If he doesnt like his job, he can change it. He can even start his own small buisness, but thats the problem. Government harms small buisnesses by increasing expense of buisness start cost, increasing cost of resources needed for production, as well as many regulations which all cost money. There is simply nothing to complain about free market when government destroys small buisnesses and reduces number of employers.
#13
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 395
Posts: 1,784
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Reece101
"Forget about taxes on tips, the left doesn’t even want you to get tips. "

Is that why you're conservative?
#14
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 395
Posts: 1,784
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@WyIted
"This is the game folks."

So how are we supposed to play the game trying to get ahead?
Topic's author
#15
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Mall
So how are we supposed to play the game trying to get ahead?
Politically vote for politicians that remove the tools of the elites such as social safety nets and mass immigration. 

Personally be connected with the truth. There is a fiction that attempts to cloud people, but a higher truth that flows through time and space persists. Be disciplined. Work really hard and face reality. Any judgement that is wishful thinking should be removed. I wish we were equals, I wish all people were good people. These things will harm you. So embrace reality but also embrace the myth of the hero on a personal level and attempt to become one by behaving like one now. Batman would be in the gym, he would be making money to acquire power he would be forming the justice league. Good luck mall
Topic's author
#16
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Best.Korea
That's the first time I think I have seen you drop your LARP. . Nice job
#17
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,971
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
Forget about taxes on tips, the left doesn’t even want you to get tips.
Is that why you're conservative?
I’m a classical liberal. 
Topic's author
#18
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Reece101
I’m a classical liberal. 
You know which side moves the ball in your preferred direction, you might as well say conservative. 
#19
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@WyIted
They ccan't get rid of a social safety net in fact they prefer it there because it keeps them safe, they can’t roll back the minimum wage for the same exact reason. 
why would this mean they would vote democrat? The republicans don't want to get rid of social safety nets either, they just want to make them worse. They want to keep the poor as poor as possible, but not quite poor enough to literally die of starvation so that they rise up. 

The next best thing they can do to is start importing a bunch of cheap labor into the country.
both parties support this. The republicans just support this while also demonizing immigrants to make their supporters afraid. 

Another tactic they also use besides importing cheap labor is that they will often pretend there are nursing or doctor shortages. Any time you see a career that pays well, the old money will start flooding your local papers with stories of shortages. It happened with nurses and truck  drivers and if you are wondering why it is harder to get 6 figures after studying for a year or 2 to program a computer, it is because the old money has petitioned the government to start flooding the cou try with much cheaper Indian labor.
except there really are shortages. But the causes of the shortages are shitty right wing policies. They treat workers like shit, workers don't want to work in that sector, so they import workers from other countries willing to put up with shit treatment. This is basic righting wing economic policy for the last several decades. 

This is the game folks. 
where in this did you describe a reason why a rich person would support the democrats? It's just a list of shitty things republicans and democrats do that rich assholes like. But democrats occasionally do things rich people don't like (like giving poor people rights or increase the minimum wage) while the republicans almost exclusively cater to screwing over poor people to help the rich. 
Topic's author
#20
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
They want to keep the poor as poor as possible, but not quite poor enough to literally die of starvation so that they rise up
Tye problem with this theory is that if Republicans want to keep people poor they keep fucking up and creating prosperity. We see what happens to blue cities like Detroit or Chicago, but even in the last 4 years you see how much worse poor people are under Biden than when Republicans were in power.

both parties support this. The republicans just support this while also demonizing immigrants to make their supporters afraid. 
Republicans support limited legal immigration while democrats are supporting un lettered immigration. We have governors being sued for helping secure the border, sanctuary cities being set up, but let's imagine both want a bunch of illegal immigrants destroying the nation, well then it is a matter of degree. Which side would the bleeding be slower under.

except there really are shortages. But the causes of the shortages are shitty right wing policies. They treat workers like shit, workers don't want to work in that sector, so they import workers from other countries willing to put up with shit treatment. This is basic righting wing economic policy for the last several decades. 

You're proving my point. Let's ignore the fact that 90% of management of hospitals is liberal and assume it is 50 or even the opposite is true. 


By your own admission. The immigration allows hospitals to continue mistreating employees when cutting off the immigration and forcing them to choose between being understaffed and losing money or treating employees well.

But democrats occasionally do things rich people don't like (like giving poor people rights or increase the minimum wage) while the republicans almost exclusively cater to screwing over poor people to help the rich. 
Reread my post for why leftists support minimum wage increases that harm the economy and small businesses. 

Republicans are more about rights anyway. Read John Stuart Mills
#21
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@WyIted
Tye problem with this theory is that if Republicans want to keep people poor they keep fucking up and creating prosperity.
prosperity for whom? Wages for CEO's have exploded, wages for workers have been stagnant and in real terms have been falling. 

 We see what happens to blue cities like Detroit or Chicago,
Democratic ruled areas are the wealthiest and most prosperous areas of the country. 

but even in the last 4 years you see how much worse poor people are under Biden than when Republicans were in power.
this is laughably untrue. The economy is the hottest it's been in what, a decade?

Republicans support limited legal immigration while democrats are supporting un lettered immigration.
both of the these statements are false. Republicans love immigration because their rich donors love it. They just also love to demonize immigrants to scare their base. 

We have governors being sued for helping secure the border,
you means the ones committing crimes? Border security is not a state power. 

sanctuary cities being set up,
it's actually been shown to be much better at reducing crime if people aren't afraid to report crimes to the police or to cooperate with investigations. 

Which side would the bleeding be slower under.
i'm not sure there's really any difference. The both have rich donors who make billions off of cheap labor provided by illegals. Neither party has any intention of cutting that off. 

By your own admission. The immigration allows hospitals to continue mistreating employees when cutting off the immigration and forcing them to choose between being understaffed and losing money or treating employees well.
You know what works even better? unions. And extremely strong laws protecting workers rights to unionize. Rich assholes will always find ways to skirt any law you put in place to restrict their ability to import cheap labor. The best defense is to empower workers to fight for themselves. 

Reread my post for why leftists support minimum wage increases that harm the economy and small businesses. 
oof. the idea that minimum wage increases harms the economy is absurd. 

Republicans are more about rights anyway.
absolutely they are, the rights of the rich to do whatever they want and to not pay their fair share in taxes. That is the one unassailable belief of the republican party. Everything else is just window dressing to pander for votes. 
#22
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,898
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Democratic ruled areas are the wealthiest and most prosperous areas of the country. 

prosperity for whom? Wages for CEO's have exploded, wages for workers have been stagnant and in real terms have been falling. 

Lol, make up your mind.
#23
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Lol, make up your mind.
how are those in conflict?

The economy is doing well. IE companies are making tons of money, the stock market is way up, unemployment is down. And the democratic run areas of the country are doing better than the red areas of the country. 

Workers have not been doing well for decades. Wages have been stagnant since like the 70's. 

"the economy" and "the workers" are different things. The economy can be doing great while workers are getting screwed. 
Topic's author
#24
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
The economy is doing well. IE companies are making tons of money, the stock market is way up, unemployment is down. And the democratic run areas of the country are doing better than the red areas of the country. 
Go live in Detroit or Chicago then go live in Jupiter Island and tell me the blue cities are doing better 

Literally everyone can barely afford to eat now due to inflation and you are pointing to stock prices and employment levels LOL. 
#25
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 354
Posts: 10,547
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@WyIted
Literally everyone can barely afford to eat now
Food is free. You literally have food stamps. 

Plus, given the obesity rates, I kinda doubt that lack of food is the problem lol
#26
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,568
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

I can't wait until AI takes over DA.  You all know that Gp is AI, right?
#27
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@WyIted
Go live in Detroit or Chicago then go live in Jupiter Island and tell me the blue cities are doing better 
So are we just picking cities at random? How about LA to Selma Alabama. I can pick cities at random too lol. 

Literally everyone can barely afford to eat now due to inflation and you are pointing to stock prices and employment levels LOL. 
This is a common thing dumb people do to play games with data. The economy is doing staggeringly well. Far, far better than it did under trump. The inflation issue you are describing (which started under trump and biden had to fix) is just another round of a trend that has been going on for decades. Wages have not kept up to inflation for about 50 years (although wage growth exceeded inflation for the last year and a half). This isn't a new phenomenon. Covid had a big sudden impact so people noticed it acutely, but it is the same trend that people have been experiencing their entire lives. You want to pretend like this is somehow the democrats fault, but that is just ridiculous. 
#28
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 354
Posts: 10,547
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@FLRW
You all know that Gp is AI, right?
Yes. Gp is a more simple, Russian model.
Topic's author
#29
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
So are we just picking cities at random? How about LA to Selma Alabama. I can pick cities at random too lol. 

I have seen skid row. Selma is superior. It's also not picking cities at random. You know that liberal cities are worse. In fact go look at the quality of life in a city like Chicago when it was predominantly republican and compare it to the quality of life now. Again you already know this though so just show some intellectual honesty and state your real reason for supporting obviously harmful policies. 



Topic's author
#30
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 5,414
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
This is a common thing dumb people do to play games with data. The economy is doing staggeringly well. Far, far better than it did under trump. The inflation issue you are describing (which started under trump and biden had to fix)
Inflation was at 1% when Trump left office

You want to pretend like this is somehow the democrats fault, but that is just ridiculous. 
Libtards and their ideological equals the neocons have been in power for the last 75 years other than when Trump was President for 4 years so not sure who you think should be blamed