A discussion in the scriptures with an apologetic.

Author: Mall

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Shila
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@Castin
"You cannot find the Trinity anywhere in the Bible because the concept did not exist during any period of the composition of the Bible
Here is a verse that mentions the trinity.
1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Castin
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@Shila
That is just a verse that mentions Spirit, water, and blood -- water and blood here referring to the death of Jesus as atonement for sin. Basically it's saying that the Holy Spirit, the blood of Christ, and the water of atonement, all testify in agreement.

The verse says nothing about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three comaterial, coequal, co-divine persons. That is a level of theological specificity and sophistication that you will not find in the Bible, and which developed over centuries of followers reflecting back on the text and trying to figure out how it all fit in their minds.

I mean, church doctrine holds that the author of 1 John also wrote the Gospel of John -- so why, in the Gospel of John, does Jesus say the Father is "greater than I" (John 14:28)? Seems a clear indication that the author of John did not consider Jesus and God coequal.

Tl;dr, we read the Trinity into the text; it isn't actually there.
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@Mall
Yep, the trinity is just theological gobbledegook.


Now, scones jam and cream is a trinity worthy of my adulation.


Which isn't to preclude the alien seeding hypothesis, whereby seeders might have worked in teams of three.

A Father a Son and a Mum.

AKA. Ged, Jess and Holly Ghost.

From the distant Planet Heven.

Information does tend to get distorted after a while; especially if it has been translated and transcribed a hundred times.
Shila
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@Castin
That is just a verse that mentions Spirit, water, and blood -- water and blood here referring to the death of Jesus as atonement for sin. Basically it's saying that the Holy Spirit, the blood of Christ, and the water of atonement, all testify in agreement.

The verse says nothing about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three comaterial, coequal, co-divine persons. That is a level of theological specificity and sophistication that you will not find in the Bible, and which developed over centuries of followers reflecting back on the text and trying to figure out how it all fit in their minds. 

I mean, church doctrine holds that the author of 1 John also wrote the Gospel of John -- so why, in the Gospel of John, does Jesus say the Father is "greater than I" (John 14:28)? Seems a clear indication that the author of John did not consider Jesus and God coequal. 

Tl;dr, we read the Trinity into the text; it isn't actually there.
Here is a verse that mentions all three being one and in heaven.

1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.


Castin
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@Shila
Here is a verse that mentions all three being one and in heaven.

1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. [They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.]
Bro, this is literally the first verse you quoted, just from a poorer and less accurate translation.

The bits I put in brackets are called the Johannine Comma and if you want to read more about how it's not actually in the Bible, there's your linkydinky.
Shila
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@Castin
Here is a verse that mentions all three being one and in heaven.
1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. [They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. Thesethree are one.]

Bro, this is literally the first verse you quoted, just from a poorer and less accurate translation.

The bits I put in brackets are called the Johannine Comma and if you want to read more about how it's not actually in the Bible, there's your linkydinky.

If you say the Comma wasn’t written by John, then how do you explain:

Cyrprian quoting it before 260
Jerome’s explicit testimony that it was removed
The Grammatical problems with John’s writing without The Comma
Over 350 Bishops – including a LOT of Arians – accepting it as scripture at the Council of Carthage

Castin
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@Shila
  • It's absent from the earliest Greek manuscripts. Even the later ones are inconsistent about how it's phrased.
  • A good indication that a passage has been interpolated, or inserted into the original manuscript, is when it appears at the bottom, top, or sides of a text instead of in the text, as it appears in this image (that's the Johannine Comma at the bottom).
  • There's academic debate about whether Cyprian was quoting the Comma, but in any case he was writing in the third century, when Trinitarian ideology was already developing. And consider that other pro-Trinitarian patriarchs, like Athanasius, or Origen, who had every reason to appeal to the passage if they were aware of it, never did.
  • Jerome didn't like that it was translated faithfully in other manuscripts because accurate translations undermined church doctrine. "Indeed, it has come to our notice that in this letter some unfaithful translators have gone far astray from the truth of the faith, for in their edition they provide just the words for three [witnesses]—namely water, blood and spirit—and omit the testimony of the Father, the Word and the Spirit, by which the Catholic faith is especially strengthened--" Because if it doesn't strengthen Catholic dogma, it must be wrong, right?
  • Nah there's no grammatical problems with the original Greek.
  • The Council of Carthage was in the fifth century, when Trinitarian ideology was coming to a peak. The church had decided what it wanted to believe and canonized it, regardless of what the text explicitly states; it's been doing that ever since.
Tl;dr: The Johannine Comma is just so inconsistently attested to in the manuscripts that most translations of the Bible omit it as spurious. When a passage is original, it's usually copied in the same way, with the same phrasing, in the same place, by scribes. When it's not original, it moves around, appears in some texts but not others, and the phrasing varies. The evidence is pretty conclusive.

Shila
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@Castin
  • It's absent from the earliest Greek manuscripts. Even the later ones are inconsistent about how it's phrased.
  • A good indication that a passage has been interpolated, or inserted into the original manuscript, is when it appears at the bottom, top, or sides of a text instead of in the text, as it appears in this image (that's the Johannine Comma at the bottom).
  • There's academic debate about whether Cyprian was quoting the Comma, but in any case he was writing in the third century, when Trinitarian ideology was already developing. And consider that other pro-Trinitarian patriarchs, like Athanasius, or Origen, who had every reason to appeal to the passage if they were aware of it, never did.
  • Jerome didn't like that it was translated faithfully in other manuscripts because accurate translations undermined church doctrine. "Indeed, it has come to our notice that in this letter some unfaithful translators have gone far astray from the truth of the faith, for in their edition they provide just the words for three [witnesses]—namely water, blood and spirit—and omit the testimony of the Father, the Word and the Spirit, by which the Catholic faith is especially strengthened--" Because if it doesn't strengthen Catholic dogma, it must be wrong, right?
  • Nah there's no grammatical problems with the original Greek.
  • The Council of Carthage was in the fifth century, when Trinitarian ideology was coming to a peak. The church had decided what it wanted to believe and canonized it, regardless of what the text explicitly states; it's been doing that ever since.
Tl;dr: The Johannine Comma is just so inconsistently attested to in the manuscripts that most translations of the Bible omit it as spurious. When a passage is original, it's usually copied in the same way, with the same phrasing, in the same place, by scribes. When it's not original, it moves around, appears in some texts but not others, and the phrasing varies. The evidence is pretty conclusive.
Let’s us look at other supporting verses for the Trinity.
1. God the Father .
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

2. God the son.
Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God.

3 God the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17 , the apostle Paul writes, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”

Alternately.
1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Castin
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@Shila
You can quote verses which identify the three parts of the Trinity all day. What you need are verses which identify the unique relationship between the parts. Namely, that they are each:

  1. Coequal
  2. Comaterial
  3. Co-divine
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Let's read further.

  • John 17:20-23  My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Passages like this indicate the author of John did not mean this "oneness" in a Trinitarian way, or else Jesus's followers could not be included in that oneness.

Idk how the other two passages indicate a Trinitarian interpretation at all so you'll have to do some extra work there bro.

Shila
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@Castin
You can quote verses which identify the three parts of the Trinity all day. What you need are verses which identify the unique relationship between the parts. Namely, that they are each:

Coequal
Comaterial
Co-divine

Let us see how the verses check out.

Let’s us look at other supporting verses for the Trinity.
1. God the Father .
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

You cannot get more coequal than that. The other two also checks out.
Coequal
Comaterial
Co-divine

2. God the son.
Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[b] the Son of God.

Son of God is the highest ranking, the other two check out as well.
Coequal
Comaterial
Co-divine

3 God the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17 , the apostle Paul writes, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”
Here the spirit is coequal to God. Son of are the other two.
Coequal
Comaterial
Co-divine

Alternately.
1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Castin
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@Shila
Now you're just ignoring my counterarguments entirely. Like a basic biiiiAAAATCH.

Engage the content of my arguments vis-a-vis John 17:20-23 and 1 John 5:7 or gtfo.
Shila
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@Castin
Now you're just ignoring my counterarguments entirely. Like a basic biiiiAAAATCH.

Engage the content of my arguments vis-a-vis John 17:20-23 and 1 John 5:7 or gtfo.


What verse says Jesus is equal to God?
Is Jesus Equal with God? | Redemption of Humanity
The Bible's Answer. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ is equal with God—a fact which powerfully refutes all cults and false religions (John 5:18, 22–23; Philippians 2:5–7).

The Bible ascribes equal worship to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Jesus claims that He and the Father must receive the same honor (John 5:23). Jesus is worshiped in the Bible (Matt. 14:33; Luke 24:52; John 20:28; Rev. 5:8-14), and He accepts that worship, which would be idolatry if He were not fully God. Likewise, we are only able to worship the Father and the Son by the Spirit (John 4:24). For it is by the Spirit that believers have spiritual life (Rom. 8:11), and are enabled to cry out “Abba, Father!” (Rom. 8:15). Thus Phil. 3:3: For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. By the grace of the Holy Spirit, let us bow they knee to the Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God our Father!

Castin
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Are you seriously just copying and pasting your responses from elsewhere like a two-bit bitch who can't connect neurons on his own. Where is your fucking pride, Shila.
Shila
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@Castin
Are you seriously just copying and pasting your responses from elsewhere like a two-bit bitch who can't connect neurons on his own. Where is your fucking pride, Shila.
I am quoting biblical scholars who have debated these issues before, that I agree with.

Castin
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@Shila
Quoting scholars is one thing, copying and pasting the entirety of your response without inserting any words or arguments of your own is another. I might as well be debating Alexa ffs.
Shila
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@Castin
Quoting scholars is one thing, copying and pasting the entirety of your response without inserting any words or arguments of your own is another. I might as well be debating Alexa ffs.
It’s the same reason we quote scriptures. To prove our point.