A discussion in the scriptures with an apologetic.

Author: Mall
trinity
apologetics
scripture

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#31
Shila
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@Mall
It is wrong if you don't have scripture to back it up.

We're either discussing what the scripture teaches or we're coming up with our own thing, no pun intended. We're coming up with what is right which is what the scripture also teaches.


Bible Verses about Spirit of God

Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Romans 8:9-11
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:14-16
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

1 Corinthians 2:10-12
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Psalm 104:30
You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the earth.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Exodus 31:2-6
“See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship. “And I, indeed I, have appointed with him Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and I have put wisdom in the hearts of all the gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you:

More on the spirit ……


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#32
Mall
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@Shila
Nothing in there says three persons or entities or a spirit is a thing.
#33
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@Mall
Nothing in there says three persons or entities or a spirit is a thing.
It is called the Trinity.
#34
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@Shila
The trinity was created as dogma by the Catholic church around 325 A.D. and the Holy Spirit part was around 383 A.D. 

Why would God decide to hide himself from his people for centuries until they had to come to realization by themselves?  Actually, they came to this Trinitarian realization with a whole lot of help with the Pagan religions around them.

Paul said it very well the relationship between God (the father) and Jesus Christ (the Son) . . .

2 Cor 5:19
to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 Tim 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Trinitarian doctrine has TONS of holes when mirrored with the Bible.
#35
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@Shila


The word trinity itself is neither Christian nor biblical..
#36
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@DavidAZZ
The Trinitarian doctrine has TONS of holes when mirrored with the Bible.


And so does the  bible as a whole. 


#37
Shila
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The word trinity itself is neither Christian nor biblical..

Do all Christian denominations believe in the Trinity.
Although the Trinitarian view became the orthodox doctrine in mainstream Christianity, variations of the nontrinitarian view are still held by a relatively small number of Christian groups and denominations. . Various views exist regarding the relationships between the Father, Son, and Holy 

#38
Tradesecret
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@Shila
Do all Christian denominations believe in the Trinity.
Although the Trinitarian view became the orthodox doctrine in mainstream Christianity, variations of the nontrinitarian view are still held by a relatively small number of Christian groups and denominations. . Various views exist regarding the relationships between the Father, Son, and Holy 
It's a fair question to ask. 

The Trinity is one of the marks of Christianity.  Even the World Council of Churches, the most ecumenical Christian organisation in the world, states that the Trinity is one of its marks of Christianity. 

Other so called Christian denominations, such as the Mormon Church, attend the WCC but they don't have full membership rights. 

The Ecumenical Council held in antiquity upheld that the Trinity is one of the doctrines that distinguished Christianity from other religions and cults. Hence, it is a measure which has been upheld and confirmed over and over again.

I would suggest that there are many so called Christian type denominations and cults all over the world.  Many use the name of Jesus as part of their name, and indeed attempt to label themselves "Christian". 

Are they Christian? Well the Church would say no, but the world would say yes.  And the world would say yes, because if someone identifies as a Christian, then that for the world is the first step.  Why would someone identify as something if they didn't believe they were?  

There are several denominations - that hold to the Oneness idea. Or to unitarianism. Or to polytheism. the Church would hold them to be contrary. 

Some hold divergent views on the Trinity doctrine. Again, most of these divergent views have been tested over the years and found wanting. Church history is a wonderful place to visit and to make enquries. Most things have been discussed before. There is not much that is totally new and novel. 

A mormon would deny everything i have said.  As would the JWs. And the Unitarians too. Most liberals would acknowledge its truth of history, even if they themselves though it an incorrect conclusion of the church.  The Trinity is Biblical and it is Christian. To deny this is to deny the history of the church.  And speaks of a profound ignorance. 

Of course, it is true that the word Trinity isn't found in the bible. and possibly the word wasn't coined for several hundred years after Christ rose from the dead. Yet the essence of the doctrine is found in eternity, from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation.  Yes, Athanasius articulated it helpfully. But the questions raised in relation to Jesus from his time on earth and later had raged in the church from the beginning.  who was he? Was he just a man or was he more than that? And if more, how much more? 

The Spirit's role also was clear from the Beginning.  And evident throughout the OT and the NT. Much more than just a mere power. - More than man. Much more but what? It was natural for the questions to arise - as they did. And it was natural for the church to arrive at a consensus in relation to it's teaching. people can continue to argue over it - and they will - but the established and confirmed councils of the church have concluded that one of the tests of orthodoxy of the Christian Church is a belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. 

It stands to reason, that people who don't agree with the Trinity, would argue against this teaching. But that doesn't make them right.  And currently it does make them wrong. Until the Church decides otherwise, this is one of the hallmarks of a genuine Christian church. 
#39
Shila
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@Tradesecret
It stands to reason, that people who don't agree with the Trinity, would argue against this teaching. But that doesn't make them right.  And currently it does make them wrong. Until the Church decides otherwise, this is one of the hallmarks of a genuine Christian church. 
The hallmark of Christianity is Jesus.
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

#40
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@Shila
It stands to reason, that people who don't agree with the Trinity, would argue against this teaching. But that doesn't make them right.  And currently it does make them wrong. Until the Church decides otherwise, this is one of the hallmarks of a genuine Christian church. 
The hallmark of Christianity is Jesus.
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
Of course, it is one of the hallmarks of Christianity. It has absolutely to do with Jesus. 

I said one of the hallmarks of the genuine Christian church is the Trinity.  Trinity, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  
#41
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@Tradesecret
Of course, it is one of the hallmarks of Christianity. It has absolutely to do with Jesus. 

I said one of the hallmarks of the genuine Christian church is the Trinity.  Trinity, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  
Without Jesus there would be no Trinity. Without Jesus there would be no Christianity either. So Jesus is the hallmark of Christianity.
#42
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@Shila
Of course, it is one of the hallmarks of Christianity. It has absolutely to do with Jesus. 

I said one of the hallmarks of the genuine Christian church is the Trinity.  Trinity, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  
Without Jesus there would be no Trinity. Without Jesus there would be no Christianity either. So Jesus is the hallmark of Christianity.
Okay.
#43
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@Shila
Tradesecret wrote: Of course, it is one of the hallmarks of Christianity. It has absolutely to do with Jesus. 

I said one of the hallmarks of the genuine Christian church is the Trinity.  Trinity, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  
Shila wrote: Without Jesus there would be no Trinity. Without Jesus there would be no Christianity either. So Jesus is the hallmark of Christianity.
Tradesecret wrote: Okay.
BS.😂 The blind leading  blind.  What a complete pair of clowns you both are.

Jesus was a full blown Jew. And if the bible is to be believed, he was King of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation.  And "had come ONLY" to reunite the "lost sheep of Israel" and not gentiles.

If anyone created Christianity it was the liar Paul that would be " all things to all men"(two faced) going so far as to cut his hair (Jesus was a Nazarite) to push his own religious agenda. And of course there is Roman Constantine that found himself on the inevitable losing end of the for- coming battle at Milvian Bridge and that - Just like Paul - suddenly claimed to see "a sign" from Jesus thereby gaining him the support of the early Christian Church...... and its many followers, that would dupes aka Christian soldiers, Constantine's reinforcements.

Jesus would have been appalled that a whole new religion had sprung up in his name and overseen by false Pastors and Priest as it was in his own day.



#44
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Jesus would have been appalled that a whole new religion had sprung up in his name and overseen by false Pastors and Priest as it was in his own day.
Jesus was appalled the Jews he was sent to save rejected him and even asked that he be crucified. But because God had made a covenant with the Jews that their circumcised penis would be save. A broken covenant would mean separating the Jewish penis from the rest of the body at death. That is why unlike Muslims Jews are not promised any virgins in paradise. They have no use for them.

#45
Stephen
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@Shila
Jesus would have been appalled that a whole new religion had sprung up in his name and overseen by false Pastors and Priest as it was in his own day.
Jesus was appalled the Jews he was sent to save rejected him and even asked that he be crucified.
🤣  more absolute bollocks.

But wasn't it all gods plan?
Hadn't it all been prophesised ? 
Hadn't Jesus prophesised his own death?
Didn't he say that all these thing must happen?
Wasn't Jesus sent  BY GOD HIS FATHER! as a sacrifice to save us from our sins?

LOOOOOOOOOOK THICKY   1 John 4:10

New International Version


10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Learn your bible you clown, You are beginning to come across like that other dense bible thicko, the Reverend Tradesecret.😂










#46
Shila
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But wasn't it all gods plan? 
Hadn't it all been prophesised ? 
Hadn't Jesus prophesised his own death? 
Didn't he say that all these thing must happen?
Wasn't Jesus sent  BY GOD HIS FATHER! as a sacrifice to save us from our sins?

LOOOOOOOOOOK THICKY   1 John 4:10

New International Version


10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Learn your bible you clown, You are beginning to come across like that other dense bible thicko, the Reverend Tradesecret.😂
The gospels were written after Jesus’s death and therefore not prophecies about Jesus’s life.
#47
Stephen
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@Shila
Stephen wrote: Jesus would have been appalled that a whole new religion had sprung up in his name and overseen by false Pastors and Priest as it was in his own day.
Shila wrote: Jesus was appalled the Jews he was sent to save rejected him and even asked that he be crucified.




🤣  more absolute bollocks.
But wasn't it all gods plan? 
Hadn't it all been prophesised ? 
Hadn't Jesus prophesised his own death? 
Didn't he say that all these thing must happen?
Wasn't Jesus sent  BY GOD HIS FATHER! as a sacrifice to save us from our sins?

LOOOOOOOOOOK THICKY   1 John 4:10

New International Version


10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Learn your bible you clown, You are beginning to come across like that other dense bible thicko, the Reverend Tradesecret.😂
The gospels were written after Jesus’s death and therefore not prophecies about Jesus’s life.

But you were blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus when it was all gods plan as shown by the bible you absolute thick twat!

And it was actually the fkn Romans that put him to death thicky!

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#48
Mall
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@Shila
I rest my case .
#49
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But you were blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus when it was all gods plan as shown by the bible you absolute thick twat!

And it was actually the fkn Romans that put him to death thicky!
The gospels were written after Jesus’s death and therefore not prophecies about Jesus’s life.
Even the disciples did not connect the prophesies to Jesus even when Jesus predicts his death his disciples remain unaware of that prediction.

Mark 8: Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
#50
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@Shila

Stephen Wrote: But you were blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus when it was all gods plan as shown by the bible you absolute thick twat!

And it was actually the fkn Romans that put him to death thicky!




Shila wrote: The gospels were written after Jesus’s death and therefore not prophecies about Jesus’s life.
Even the disciples did not connect the prophesies to Jesus even when Jesus predicts his death his disciples remain unaware of that prediction.

Mark 8: Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

🤣Exactly. They knew well in hand that is was all gods plan.


Shila wrote: Even the disciples did not connect the prophesies

😂 Mathew's and Luke's did thicko. And YOU,  in bold underlined above,  have even quoted JESUS HIMSELF predicting to his disciples about  his death. 


It was all gods plan:

Stephen wrote:  LOOOOOOOOOOK THICKY   1 John 4:10

New International Version


10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Learn your bible you clown, You are beginning to come across like that other dense bible thicko, the Reverend Tradesecret.😂
Do you not believe the bible bible that you are so keen to preach to others, Shila?

Shila wrote: The gospels were written after Jesus’s death and therefore not prophecies about Jesus’s life.
😂 You are deserving of second place in the religion forums table of bible dunces.

Off you go now.


#51
zedvictor4
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@Stephen
Hey, Stephen...Starting to sound like the Bro.

Have a good Sunday and Monday.

Regards.

Zed.


#52
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@zedvictor4
Hey, Stephen...Starting to sound like the Bro.

He's sorely missed. I wonder why he stopped posting here, because he was never banned...... officialy that is?
#53
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@Stephen
I did wonder.

The person on DebateIsland claims not to be the Bro, but I'm sure that it is.

Anyway, nice to see you taking up the mantle.
#54
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@zedvictor4
Anyway, nice to see you taking up the mantle.

Luke 3:16  😊
#55
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Mathew's and Luke's did thicko. And YOU,  in bold underlined above,  have even quoted JESUS HIMSELF predicting to his disciples about  his death. 
Jesus did not quote Matthew and Luke . The gospels were written after Jesus’s death.

Jesus quoted Daniel which was written 530 years before Jesus. Prophesies are fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet who predicts it. That is the test or the prophet is a false prophet.

#56
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@Shila
Mathew's and Luke's did thicko. And YOU,  in bold underlined above,  have even quoted JESUS HIMSELF predicting to his disciples about  his death. 
Jesus did not quote Matthew and Luke .

I know that stupid. But both those gospels quote Jesus.

AND YOU above HERE> #49 have quoted Jesus predicting his own death directly to his disciples saying: 

Mark 8: Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed....

The new testament also cliams that 

The gospels were written after Jesus’s death.

Ok. So are you saying that the gospels are unreliable as any sort of proof or witness of the life and times of Jesus?


Jesus quoted Daniel which was written 530 years before Jesus.

And who did he make those quotes to?



Prophesies are fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet who predicts it.#55
I agree.
😂 You have made my day.  So the prophesy Isaiah 7:14 of the Virgin birth believed by millions of Christians to be the foretelling of the arrival of Jesus 700 years in the future isn't true then?  Well I can agree with that totally, Shila . 

And what about the Apostle Peter, in his letter, directly quotes from Isaiah 53 when he discusses how Jesus bore our sins on the cross, emphasizing that Jesus fulfilled this specific prophecy?

is that all bullshit too? 

What about the Deuteronomy 21:23 prophecy that Christians AND Peter claim was the foretelling of the crucifixion of Jesus being hanged from a tree?

Was that bullshit too?

And Zechariah 11:12 and thirty pieces of silver prophecy. Was that shite too?

AND what about ;
Silent before accusers
Isaiah 53:7
Betrayed by a friend
Psalm 41:9
Mocked and insulted
Psalm 22:7-8
Beaten and spit upon
Isaiah 50:6
Crucified with criminals
Isaiah 53:12
Hands and feet pierced
Psalm 22:16
Garments divided and lots cast
Psalm 22:18
Buried in a rich man’s tomb
Isaiah 53:9
Given vinegar to drink
Psalm 69:21
No bones broken
Psalm 34:20

All the above are what Christians and  the gospels claim are all predictions made about Jesus over 700-800 years before his arrival.

SO  keeping in mind what you have said HERE>> #55 "Prophesies are fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet who predicts it",  if you have answered yes to all the above, then I will agree with you totally that they are not prophecies about Jesus.








#57
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All the above are what Christians and  the gospels claim are all predictions made about Jesus over 700-800 years before his arrival.

SO  keeping in mind what you have said HERE>> #55 "Prophesies are fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet who predicts it",  if you have answered yes to all the above, then I will agree with you totally that they are not prophecies about Jesus.
Did the disciples know that Jesus was going to die?
The second warning appears in Mark 9:30–32 (and also in Matthew 17:22–23) as follows: He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it. Proof the disciples did not connect Jesus to the prophesies of past prophets.

Even Jesus did not know what/who he was.
Mark 8:27-29 
On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked.

Jesus could not answer when what he spoke of would happen because it was not his prophecy or about him.
Matthew24
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.


#58
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@Shila
All the above are what Christians and  the gospels claim are all predictions made about Jesus over 700-800 years before his arrival.

SO  keeping in mind what you have said HERE>> #55 "Prophesies are fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet who predicts it",  if you have answered yes to all the above, then I will agree with you totally that they are not prophecies about Jesus.
Did the disciples know that Jesus was going to die?

Yes. He told them directly as YOU clearly pointed out above. HERE> #49 have quoted Jesus predicting his own death directly to his disciples saying: 

Mark 8: Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed....
 And the BIBLE tells us that god his father had sent him  to earth to be sacrificed. 


Stephen wrote:  LOOOOOOOOOOK THICKY   1 John 4:10 New International Version


10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

So it was gods plan, gods idea and gods will. So stop blaming the Jews and the Romans.


#59
Shila
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Did the disciples know that Jesus was going to die?

If they knew or followed the prophesies the answer would be yes. But nowhere do the prophesies mention Jesus. Besides they were written centuries before Jesus and had expired. Prophesies are to be fulfilled during the lifetime of the prophet.

Yes. He told them directly as YOU clearly pointed out above. HERE> #49 have quoted Jesus predicting his own death directly to his disciples saying:
So it was not from the prophets but from Jesus in the Gospels telling them.
But the gospels were written after Jesus’s death. They were not considered prophesies.

Even there the disciples asked Jesus to clarify when they were to happen.
Jesus could not answer when what he spoke of would happen because it was not his prophecy or about him.
Matthew24
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

38 days later

#60
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@Mall
We can start this off with the Trinity. Anybody can chime in.
Okeydoke.

Was watching a TikTok by a biblical scholar who made an interesting analogy:

"You cannot find the Trinity anywhere in the Bible because the concept did not exist during any period of the composition of the Bible [...] But, what you can do [is]... you can think of each verse of the Bible as a lego block, and then you can go through and you can pick and choose which blocks you wanna use and which ones you wanna be sure to ignore, and then you can put them together and construct a concept that resembles the Trinity. And then you can say, 'See? Because all these blocks come from the Bible, this construction is in the Bible' -- even though you have put it together yourself based on a predetermined idea of what you wanted to find.

"Now the actual original construction of the Trinity from those lego blocks took multiple centuries, because they did not have a predetermined idea. But now that you have seen it put together, that feels like the most natural way for those pieces to function. And so you cannot look back at the scattered lego pieces and not see the Trinity. Because you know how they have been put together, you can't unsee that and view those scattered lego pieces with fresh eyes. You have absolutely no choice, because of the nature of human cognition, but to think of those pieces as a disassembled Trinity. But that's not what they were until someone actually put them together to create the Trinity in the first place -- which, again, took place between the 2nd and 5th centuries CE."