We can start this off with the Trinity. Anybody can chime in.
A discussion in the scriptures with an apologetic.
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@CatholicApologetics
Greetings, I just like to discuss some subjects with you .
Starting with questions on the Trinity which I believe you believe is three distinct persons in the Godhead.
What is a person in this context?
Starting with questions on the Trinity which I believe you believe is three distinct persons in the Godhead.
What is a person in this context?
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@Mall
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God" [CCC 253].
With this definition of the Trinity, I can answer what "Persons" refers to. A "Person" refers to a distinct, relational identity within the one divine essence of God. The term "Person" in Trinitarian theology doesn't mean the same thing as "person" in everyday language, where we think of individual human beings. Instead, it refers to the three distinct identities—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are each fully and equally God, yet are not three gods, but one God.
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@Mall
@CatholicApologetics
And in the Garden when Jesus prays to ..... himself !?
Matthew 26:36-46
36 Then Jesus went with the disciples to a place called Gethsemane. He said to them, “Stay here while I go over there and pray.”
37 He took Peter and Zebedee’s two sons with him. He was beginning to feel deep anguish. 38 Then he said to them, “My anguish is so great that I feel as if I’m dying. Wait here, and stay awake with me.”
39 After walking a little farther, he quickly bowed with his face to the ground and prayed, “Father, if it’s possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. But let your will be done rather than mine.”.......
42 Then he went away a second time and prayed, “Father, if this cup cannot be taken away unless I drink it, let your will be done.”
44 After leaving them again, he went away and prayed the same prayer a third time.
Luke. And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Yes, he was so terrified of dying that he sweated blood and his prayer - to himself - went unanswered. Not a word of comfort from himself... to himself.
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@Stephen
I have heard this passage many times and have read it myself. The questions, "Doesn't Jesus pray to himself? How can He be God?" are derived from a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God.
I provided the definition for the Trinity in a previous comment. Let me reiterate:
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God" [CCC 253].
Now, regarding Matthew 26:36-46, where Jesus prays in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus is not praying to Himself but to the Father. The key verse, Matthew 26:39, shows Jesus expressing His anguish and asking the Father to spare Him from the suffering He is about to endure. This is not a case of Jesus talking to Himself but of the Son communicating with the Father.
Understanding the Trinity helps clarify this: Jesus, as the Son, is distinct from the Father, though they are one in essence. There are various types of prayers, demonstrated by many individuals throughout the Bible. Prayer can involve communion, communication, intimate fellowship, requests, and worship. Why should it surprise you that Jesus, who is not the Father but His divine Son, prayed to the Father? Jesus spoke to the Father, engaged in intimate fellowship with Him, and had communion with Him. This is exactly what we should expect, given that Jesus, while distinct from the Father, is inseparable from Him as His beloved Son, continually engaged in a loving and intimate relationship with the Father. This communication reflects the relational dynamic within the Godhead, where the Son, though fully God, is distinct from the Father.
Jesus' prayer is ultimately a prayer of submission: “Not my will, but yours be done.” Jesus’ willingness to accept the Father’s will, even in the face of immense suffering, demonstrates His perfect obedience and trust in the Father’s plan for salvation. Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane is not an instance of Him praying to Himself but rather an expression of His relationship with the Father.
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@CatholicApologetics
I have heard this passage many times and have read it myself. [......................................]Now, regarding Matthew 26:36-46, where Jesus prays in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus is not praying to Himself but to the Father.
I have read it too. And I didn't miss the part that clearly says: my Father. ergo Jesus is speaking to someone else.
Jesus' prayer is ultimately a prayer of submission: “Not my will, but yours be done.” Jesus’ willingness to accept the Father’s will, even in the face of immense suffering, demonstrates His perfect obedience and trust in the Father’s plan for salvation.
You do realise in your quote above that Jesus -in your own words - that you have clearly pointed out that Jesus is speaking to someone else.
Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane is not an instance of Him praying to Himself but rather an expression of His relationship with the Father.
Exactly my point. Such is the ridiculousness of the trinity.
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@Stephen
You do realise in your quote above that Jesus -in your own words - that you have clearly pointed out that Jesus is speaking to someone else.
Yes, that was what I was pointing out. Jesus is not speaking to Himself but to the Father.
Exactly my point. Such is the ridiculousness of the trinity.
I'm guessing you don't believe in the Trinity?
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@CatholicApologetics
The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God" [CCC 253].With this definition of the Trinity, I can answer what "Persons" refers to. A "Person" refers to a distinct, relational identity within the one divine essence of God. The term "Person" in Trinitarian theology doesn't mean the same thing as "person" in everyday language, where we think of individual human beings. Instead, it refers to the three distinct identities—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are each fully and equally God, yet are not three gods, but one God.
I'm familiar with these words, but I think there are multiple ways in which they can be said to be true.
What is the meaning behind the words, what are they really telling us and what are the implications of that?
How can Jesus be fully man, and fully God?
Is it that Jesus, who was fully a man, attained a state in which he could also be said to be fully God? Was he telling us if we follow his way that we could achieve what he achieved? Is that the lesson to be learned?
What do you think these words mean?
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@CatholicApologetics
I'm guessing you don't believe in the Trinity?
"the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" said Rabbi David Kimhi - " therefore, with reference to this god whom you call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, - that part which you call the Father must be prior to that which you call Son, for if they were always coexistent would have to be called twin brothers.
More over, if the Son is the Father what of Mary getting pregnant? Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"...
It's all very - Oedipus, isn't it ?
Oedipus c 450 BC, was a mythical Greek king of Thebes. A tragic hero in Greek mythology, Oedipus is believed to have fulfilled a prophecy (accidentally) that he would end up killing his father and marrying his mother, thereby bringing disaster to his city and family.
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@CatholicApologetics
What is "relational identity"?
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@Sidewalker
Is it that Jesus, who was fully a man, attained a state in which he could also be said to be fully God? Was he telling us if we follow his way that we could achieve what he achieved? Is that the lesson to be learned?
You had raised a crucial question regarding the nature of Jesus. According to Christian doctrine, Jesus possesses two distinct natures: He is fully human and fully divine. These two natures coexist without contradiction.
Jesus’ divinity is not something He attained through His human nature; rather, He is eternally God who took on human flesh (John 1:14). The Gospels do not suggest that we can attain divinity by following Jesus. Instead, they teach that "everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life" (John 3:16). Jesus’ life and teachings show us the path to reconciliation with God, but they do not imply that we will become gods ourselves.
I hope this clears confusion. If you have any more questions, feel free to respond to this comment or send me PM.
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@Stephen
The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother
The idea of the Son being born of the Virgin Mary does not imply a physical relationship between the Father and Mary. The conception of Jesus was a miraculous act of the Holy Spirit, not a physical union. The Bible teaches that Mary conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, not through any human or divine sexual act (Luke 1:35). Any suggestion of incest or an Oedipal relationship is entirely unfounded and misunderstands the spiritual nature of the event.
You mentioned the Father is prior to the Son. The Father and the Son are distinct persons within the Godhead, not in a temporal or hierarchical sense, but in terms of their relational roles. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, not created, which means He shares the same divine nature but is not subordinate in essence.
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@Mall
"Relational identity" refers to the understanding of a person's identity based on their relationships with others. In the context of the Trinity, it’s used to describe how each person of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) exists in a unique relational dynamic while sharing the same divine essence.
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@CatholicApologetics
Your answer is getting circular.
I'll go this way. I believe you are familiar with the scriptures that mentions he took not on the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham. What is the nature of(which you call three persons) the Father, Son, Holy Ghost?
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@Mall
We can start this off with the Trinity. Anybody can chime in.
I modern terns the Trinity is a soundproof backup plan. A plan A, a plan B and a plan C.
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@Shila
In Trinitarian terms, it is three persons in the Godhead. Then I ask what are persons. The nearest I got was "relational identity" which is describing the person in relation to another which gets circular. We go from person to identity to description to back to person again.
Next, where is scripture to read for all this?
I understand this is cemetery school or seminary school theology.
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@Mall
In Trinitarian terms, it is three persons in the Godhead. Then I ask what are persons. The nearest I got was "relational identity" which is describing the person in relation to another which gets circular. We go from person to identity to description to back to person again.Next, where is scripture to read for all this?I understand this is cemetery school or seminary school theology.
The Trinity is a difficult concept to understand. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate entities combined as one but tasked differently.
This is why the Catholics who introduced the concept of the Trinity dominated Christianity. They had explored a wider domain for God.
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@Shila
Yeah because it's hardly scriptural. The closest you'll find to "tasked differently" is in Corinthians I believe speaking about diversities of operations. Maybe that's what Trinitarians are trying to explain in this three person explanation. I didn't get that in this explanation however.
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@Mall
Yeah because it's hardly scriptural. The closest you'll find to "tasked differently" is in Corinthians I believe speaking about diversities of operations. Maybe that's what Trinitarians are trying to explain in this three person explanation. I didn't get that in this explanation however.
Carrying this concept over to the Trinity, it is not a contradiction for God to be both three and one because He is not three and one in the same way. He is three in a different way than He is one. Thus, we are not speaking with a forked tongue — we are not saying that God is one and then denying that He is one by saying that He is three. This is very important: God is one and three at the same time, but not in the same way.
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@Shila
He's three what?
If you say "persons" , be sure to unpack that a great deal.
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@Mall
He's three what?If you say "persons" , be sure to unpack that a great deal.
The Trinity is a difficult concept to understand. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate entities combined as one but tasked differently.
This is why the Catholics who introduced the concept of the Trinity dominated Christianity. They had explored a wider domain for God.
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@Shila
See you can't even answer what the three are.
Whatever you say ,I would then request scripture on it.
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@Mall
See you can't even answer what the three are.Whatever you say ,I would then request scripture on it.
1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
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@Shila
Three what?
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@Mall
Three what?
What is a simple way to describe the Trinity?
The Holy Trinity is the belief that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. Each of them has a role and exist as three entities, but they ultimately comprise one main entity.
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@Shila
What is an entity? What is the nature of it in this case?
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@Mall
What is an entity? What is the nature of it in this case?
Definition of entity.
a thing with distinct and independent existence.
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@Shila
That can't apply to God because according to the scripture, God is a spirit. A spirit is not a thing.
This is why I say without scripture backing you up, you're in trouble.
Don't say things you have no bible for.
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@Mall
That can't apply to God because according to the scripture, God is a spirit. A spirit is not a thing.This is why I say without scripture backing you up, you're in trouble.Don't say things you have no bible for.
There is nothing inherently wrong with referring to something as a “God thing.” The expression resembles another prevalent Christian saying—“God moment”—describing an extraordinary or intimate experience of God’s presence or power. Neither phrase is incorrect if understood and applied in light of biblical truth.
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@Shila
It is wrong if you don't have scripture to back it up.
We're either discussing what the scripture teaches or we're coming up with our own thing, no pun intended. We're coming up with what is right which is what the scripture also teaches.