If morality is subjective, then morality is still objective

Author: Best.Korea

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@TwoMan
If Determinism negates freedom to act and Free Will is an illusion, then you deny the very basis of reason, the idea that "something subjective can be rational" is an illusion and the very idea that you could "decide" is negated, it is incoherent to say you are "undecided". 
Fair enough. What do you consider to be the basis of reason?

It involves the capacity to evaluate information and draw conclusions with the intent of determining the truth.  If determinism negates the freedom to choose among alternatives to determine truth, then reason, truth, logic, and the associated human activities like science, philosophy, art, religion, and mathematics are not meaningful, everything we know to be distinctly human is an illusion.
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@TwoMan
Is that actually knowledge and is it rational?
Yes, smooth transition.
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@Sidewalker
When I previously argued the validity of free will I pointed out that the opposing view meant that people would be considered "clockwork oranges". Biological in nature but mechanical in function. The opposition was fine with that distinction. That is where hard determinism leads to.
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@Tarik
Is that actually knowledge and is it rational?
Yes, smooth transition.
I think that it is rational only in the sense that it is reasonable to want to believe it. I don't think it is knowledge.
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@Sidewalker
The answer to your question is yes, I believe in an afterlife, but not in any traditional sense.
Care to elaborate on that?

In response to the religious view that morality depends on the willof God, I don't believe that makes morality objective, it just makes it subjective on a cosmic scale.
But wouldn’t that make everything subjective? Sometimes these philosophical discussions leads us to overthink relatively basic things.
Tarik
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@TwoMan
I don't think it is knowledge.
Then what is?
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@Sidewalker
Function and process dictate that everything is actually an illusion.

Though certain pointers lead us to conclude that some of our illusions are reasonable facsimiles.

Whereas others are wholly self generated.

Is the latter any less real than the former?
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@Tarik
I don't think it is knowledge.
Then what is?
Facts.
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@Best.Korea
I would venture to add a different 3 and 4 and add a 5 for a separate track along the same lines of thinking:

3. When equally applied, there is inherent contradiction, as moral opinions demand that all other moral opinions not be followed.

4. Therefore all moral opinions are wrong, since they claim inherently contradictory things about all other moral opinions.

5. Therefore morality is objective.

To Double-R's point about the last ones disagreeing, I don't see how. If everything is equal, it must be applied equally. Of course there would be clashes, because many types of moral codes are completely contradictory.
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@Public-Choice
People try to disagree with literal tautology.

There are only two options:

1. Some moral opinions are more proven than others (thus, objective morality)

2. All moral opinions are equally unproven

There is no 3rd option. However, both options lead to objective morality.
The 1. obviously says that some moral opinions are closer to truth than others, thus objectively more correct.
The 2. says that all moral opinions are equally unproven, thus equality of proof of moral opinions is objective truth, objective morality.

There is nothing to disagree with in this obvious tautology, and any disagreement presented in this topic is just people failing to understand what tautology is.
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@Tarik
The answer to your question is yes, I believe in an afterlife, but not in any traditional sense.
Care to elaborate on that?
I will try.

I think the Bible explicitly warns against literalism and so I’m not a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination.  It’s to that extent that I see literal interpretations of the afterlife are the “traditional sense” which I don’t accept.


I believe Spirituality can be experienced, but it cannot be understood within our normal frame of reference, it is a matter of transcendence.  Consequently, when words are applied to Spirit, they are being used metaphorically to describe something that transcends words. 

I believe the goal of faith is to transcend the realm in which our own materiality is located. It is a matter of adopting a perspective that defines life as good in terms of participation in something greater and the associated contribution made in service to others. I believe we are called to transcend our own ego consciousness and extend our awareness and being to include the experience created in others by our actions.  If we can overcome consciousness of material being and enter a completely different realm, a spiritualistic realm, in which we are truly one with our fellow man.  In this way, I believe that we extend our existence beyond the death of the individual by participating in a greater being that lives on beyond the death of any individual.

Words are clumsy, two left footed things that are impossible to dance to when it comes to describing the transcendent reality we call Spirit, so that is my lame attempt to use words to tell you what I mean when I say “not in any traditional sense”

In response to the religious view that morality depends on the will of God, I don't believe that makes morality objective, it just makes it subjective on a cosmic scale.
But wouldn’t that make everything subjective? Sometimes these philosophical discussions leads us to overthink relatively basic things.
If you believe that morality depends on the will of God, then yes, everything would be subjective to the personhood of God. 
Best.Korea
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The main disagreement was that if all moral opinions are equally unproven, then there cannot be a more proven moral opinion by tautology.

However, as stated before, there are only 2 options. Option 2 is self-negating because if we say that all moral opinions are equally unproven, then that becomes proven truth, therefore it is placed in option 1, proving option 2 false.

Moral opinion X says that all moral opinions are equally unproven = accepted as objective fact

All moral opinions equally unproven = Moral opinion X equally unproven as other moral opinions

This yields a contradiction which can only be resolved in this way:

Moral opinion X says that all moral opinions are equally unproven except moral opinion X = Moral opinion X becomes objective morality

Moral opinion X is simply true because it states objective fact that all other moral opinions are equally unproven, where only moral opinion X is proven by simple observation of other moral opinions.
Tarik
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@Double_R
Post #200 was directed at you BTW.
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@TwoMan
I think that it is rational only in the sense that it is reasonable to want to believe it. I don't think it is knowledge.
Well if knowledge is facts then it is only rational/reasonable to believe something if it is also indeed factual, anything less is inherently fallacious.
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@Tarik
I was also making a truth claim, you changed the subject by bringing up an unrealistic hypothetical
Unrealistic hypothetical? So you still don't understand what hypotheticals are and why they are useful. Got it.

“The premises of their morality is what you're taking issue with, not their rationality. They're two different things.”
Again you’re assuming that morality is a rational concept
Oh my god dude, this is absolutely insane.

I just wrote two entire posts walking you through what rationality is and how it applies to morality. That by definition is not an assumption. It's an argument, and one you continue to pretend doesn't exist even though it's right there in front of your face. All you have to do is read it. Please give that try.

forget about morality for a minute (I can do hypotheticals too) if a concept is already established as irrational what need is there to form a premise and conclusion around it?
Established means that all parties within the conversation agree. That's not the case here. If it were there would be no reason to continue with a hypothetical, but we don't, so...

The purpose is to demonstrate the concept's irrationality by showing how accepting that concept leads to absurdities. The takeaway from the exercise is that the argument being examined (via the logic test, aka hypothetical) is wrong.
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@Sidewalker
“I think the Bible explicitly warns against literalism and so I’m not a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination.”
I may be a part of the problem here but this sounds contradictory to me, if The Bible warns against literalism then why are those who subscribe to The Bible considered fundamentalists? Isn’t that term pedantic.

“If you believe that morality depends on the will of God, then yes, everything would be subjective to the personhood of God.“
But if His moral will is consistent doesn’t that make it objective?
Tarik
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@Double_R
Unrealistic hypothetical? So you still don't understand what hypotheticals are and why they are useful. Got it.
So you still don’t understand why comments like this aren’t useful? Because it’s easy for whoever it’s directed to to say right back at ya 😉 

All you have to do is read it.
Read WHAT? I’ve been quoting you because I’m reading what you post, it’s not sufficient, that’s a YOU problem not me.

Logic (aka rationality) can only begin once we have a set of premises established.

Established means that all parties within the conversation agree.
Well we need to have a concept established too and because we don’t then there is no logic, you don’t like the word “if” then fine but you must take all factors into consideration for logic to begin. And when did I agree to the concept of morality? I literally argued in favor of nihilism so this notion that morality has already been established between us is a lie.

That's not the case here.
Yeah? Well neither is you being unable to live without access to my body, that’s also not the case here but you originally argued that it is which is a lie.

“The purpose is to demonstrate the concept's irrationality by showing how accepting that concept leads to absurdities. The takeaway from the exercise is that the argument being examined (via the logic test, aka hypothetical) is wrong.”
Kinda like what I did when I argued in favor of nihilism, got it 👍🏾 but you never did anything remotely close to this.
Sidewalker
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@Tarik
“I think the Bible explicitly warns against literalism and so I’m not a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination.”
I may be a part of the problem here but this sounds contradictory to me, if The Bible warns against literalism then why are those who subscribe to The Bible considered fundamentalists? Isn’t that term pedantic.
I could be wrong about the way I'm using the word Fundamentalist, but I think of it as characterized by Biblical Literalism. 

The Bible includes history andprophecy, poetry and love songs, allegories and parables, none of which isconducive any kind of "literal" translation.

Considering the linguistic journey the Bible took to arrive at an English translation, I don't think a literal translation is even possible.  

“If you believe that morality depends on the will of God, then yes, everything would be subjective to the personhood of God.“
But if His moral will is consistent doesn’t that make it objective?
If morality depends on the will of God, I think that would make it absolute rather than objective.

Tarik
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@Sidewalker
I could be wrong about the way I'm using the word Fundamentalist, but I think of it as characterized by Biblical Literalism.
But I still feel that somewhat has to be applicable to you when you refer to The Bible as a justification for your view, and that’s what’s throwing me for a loop here.

The Bible includes history andprophecy, poetry and love songs, allegories and parables, none of which isconducive any kind of "literal" translation.
Be that as it may, The Bible is much more then just that.

Considering the linguistic journey the Bible took to arrive at an English translation, I don't think a literal translation is even possible.
Does that journey significantly alter the meaning?

If morality depends on the will of God, I think that would make it absolute rather than objective.
What’s the difference?
Double_R
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@Tarik
That's not the case here.
Yeah? Well neither is you being unable to live without access to my body, that’s also not the case here but you originally argued that it is which is a lie.
I didn't argue/lie about me being unable to live without access to your body. I said "if I were unable to...".

If =/= Is

If is the beginning of a hypothetical, which means it's not real life, and I've already explained why it doesn't need to be. You just don't get it.

Tarik
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@Double_R
I didn't argue/lie about me being unable to live without access to your body. I said "if I were unable to...".
And before that you said

They are treated the same.
That is a what IS claim not IF and is is based on real life, so I’m going to say the same thing that you said to me.

No, there is no IF.
You just don't get that, hopefully the ad nauseam redundancy sinks in.
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@TwoMan
No it doesn't.

In that case, you will live forever.
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@Tarik
I didn't argue/lie about me being unable to live without access to your body. I said "if I were unable to...".
And before that you said

They are treated the same.
That is a what IS claim not IF and is is based on real life, so I’m going to say the same thing that you said to me.

No, there is no IF.
You just don't get that, hopefully the ad nauseam redundancy sinks in.
There is no way you are being serious.

Here is the "They" you were referring to in post 145:
Then I assume you’re pro-life? Because the unborn aren’t treated with the same deference as everyone else who is born.
They are treated the same. If I was unable to live without access to your body and you refused to grant me that access, I would die.
The first sentence pertained to real life. "They" was referring to the rights that newborns are actually bgranted under current law. The second sentence is a hypothetical (not real life) scenario that demonstrates why the logic of your claim fails even though it might have sounded persuasive at first.

For you to twist that into "I claimed I was unable to live without access to your body"... As in, I am really saying that is really true, is just plain stupid.
Tarik
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@Double_R
The first sentence pertained to real life. "They" was referring to the rights that newborns are actually bgranted under current law. The second sentence is a hypothetical (not real life) scenario that demonstrates why the logic of your claim fails even though it might have sounded persuasive at first.
Well you can’t justify what is claims with what ifs my guy, that’s just plain stupid 😉 
Sidewalker
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@Tarik
I could be wrong about the way I'm using the word Fundamentalist, but I think of it as characterized by Biblical Literalism.
But I still feel that somewhat has to be applicable to you when you refer to The Bible as a justification for your view, and that’s what’s throwing me for a loop here.
I believe that literalism fundamentally obfuscates the spirit and intent of the Bible.

Christianity tells us God is a Spirit that cannot be fully comprehended from a human point of view. In the Bible a “transcendent” God is represented as "seen through a glass darkly" (1 Corinthians 13:12) at best “we know in part”, it tells us “The word of God is not bound” (2 Timothy 2:9).  Jesus said, “his Father’s house had many mansions” (John 14:2), He invited His listeners to “seek the Kingdom within” (Luke 17:21).  Literalism is simply incompatible with these core principles of Christianity; they cannot be expressed literally.

The words of the Bible were meant to resonate on many different levels to bring about a synthesis of mind, heart, and soul, they were meant to be listened to with the heart and responded to with the heart in order to give expression to the soul that is within the words and events that they expressed. The original words surely revealed dimensions that go beyond the surface understanding of any written translation, they were designed to integrate the listener's reality with God's reality and show how they are one. You simply cannot confuse a literal translation of the words with the experience of Truth that they attempted to impart.

For me, it is the truth that "is within" that the Bible speaks of and to. If we listen to that "voice within" we will know how to interpret it and we will be able to distinguish between what is permanent truth and what is cultural bias. Consequently, when I read the Bible, I try to read it with my heart rather than my intellect and to do so I change my focus from actively pondering the external events to passively opening to the internal, transcendent knowledge within.

The point being that we cannot confuse the words and the language with the reality and truth that they attempt to represent symbolically. Language is no more than a very limited symbol of the reality experienced and then expressed, changing in time and place, and meaning different things to different people of different points of view, in different contexts.

Literalism creates a blindness that flows from thinking reality is as we have labeled it with words; we miss out on the depth and wonder of reality if we limit it to the words we use to describe it  Literalism attempts to make faith stagnant, it doesn’t allow doctrine to change and adapt to circumstances in order to have contemporary meaning, and that is tragic because Scripture is referential to much more than some strange events that happened a long time ago, as Huston Smith said, "It is about religion alive".

Religious narratives achieve greatness because of their power to generate meanings, not because of their value as a literal record of facts and events. Literalism necessarily imposes a reinterpretation of the transcendent dimension in the narrative that defines it as religious in the first place, by assuming that "narrative", implies record, it doesn't. With literalism you are only opening the text to scrutiny that only sharpens doctrinal debate and results in divisiveness. A literal reading of scripture does not foster religious awareness, it distracts from, and conflicts with, the goal of transcendence, in the end, the text is negated.

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

The Bible includes history andprophecy, poetry and love songs, allegories and parables, none of which isconducive any kind of "literal" translation.
Be that as it may, The Bible is much more then just that.
Too often we get lost in the pettiness and divisiveness of Biblical detail and in so doing we forget that its message is about unity and love.

I read the Bible to be inspired by its pages. I do not go to it as though it were an unyielding oracle that related once and for all the will of God. For me, this is to make the Bible a pretentious idol, a barrier to creative and personal thought, and a myth. I do not accept the Biblical myth that many try to impose on me, I do accept the Bible as a profound work of both historical and current significance, and for me, the myth of the Bible is nothing compared to the reality.

Considering the linguistic journey the Bible took to arrive at an English translation, I don't think a literal translation is even possible.
Does that journey significantly alter the meaning?
Yes, and it in necessarily unavoidable. 

Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek, Latin and English is a rough approximation of the journey that had to be taken to arrive at an English translation of the Bible, all of these languages use different words, syntax and grammatical structures. Translation from one language to another always results in an inexact interpretation of words, meanings, and context.

Old Testament Hebrew was a very primitive language, it was the first alphabetic language, it consisted only of consonants with no vowels written in the text, and there is no "past, present, or future" tense in Hebrew. The Hebrew language had only about a 30,000-word vocabulary, Greek had a 250,000-word vocabulary and English has over 300,000 words. One Hebrew word could be used in dozens of different ways, and the meaning was determined by the context, Koine Greek, for example, had four different words for "love"; Hebrew only had one. It is absolutely impossible to translate most Hebrew words exactly into modern English. Greek had many verb forms that do not exist in English, and Aramaic uses different verb forms depending on whether the subject is male or female. 

Aramaic was the native language of Jesus and the one he mostly taught in, Aramaic is structurally and grammatically very different than English, as is the context in which the words were spoken, written, and then read today. Aramaic is not just structurally and grammatically different than English, it is also very different in that it is a rich, poetic language that utilizes webs of constellated meanings to represent ideas. Jesus "spoke as no man had spoken before", and he spoke as "One who knows", he used words to inspire and initiate, to involve the listener, and to transmit complex ideas through imagery. The language he used was polyphonic, poetic, and profoundly imaginative, and he taught the truth of the Kingdom mainly in parables, which is an "invitational" form of speech that stimulates the imagination and needs to be completed in the mind, heart and soul of the listener. It is a great tragedy if we try to take words and expressions that were originally meant to resonate on many different levels of meaning, on intellectual, metaphorical, and universal levels, and translate them into explicit representations of material facts. If we do so, we are bound to "miss the mark", so to speak.

With all due respect, the fact is there is no such thing as a "literal" translation of the Bible, that contention becomes meaningless in view of it’s many translation through such different languages.

The authors of Scripture were interpreting and expressing a spiritual experience that lies prior to and beneath language, typically described as “transcendent” and “ineffable”, because it’s too immediate and direct to be adequately described with words and language, and consequently, we must resort to symbols, allegory or metaphors to even try to express it.  I believe that the genuine spiritual experience reveals dimensions that go beyond the surface understanding of any “symbolic” religious concept or idea, and Scripture is designed to help provide the reader with access to that transcendent spiritual experience, it certainly is not a substitute for it.

If morality depends on the will of God, I think that would make it absolute rather than objective.
What’s the difference?
Absolute truth is a statement that is always true, regardless of circumstances, while objective truth is a statement that is based on facts and is independent of personal belief. 

If morality is based on the will of God, then it is a matter of the personhood of God, which is a personal belief that is absolute, but by definition, it is not objective.
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@Sidewalker
Hey.

Obfuscation, clearly. HaHa

Belief, yep, when all other explanations fail.

All falling under the broad umbrella of humanism.

Sub category, we don't actually have a clue.

But hey, here's another load of pseudo-hypothetical subjectivity.


I work on the theory that an interventionist super-intelligence, would actually be such, and not something that attracts attention by setting fire to bushes.





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@zedvictor4
All internet atheists are literalists.

You don't believe in an invisible bearded man in the sky that grants wishes, got it.

Nobody believes in the God you don't believe in.
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@zedvictor4
I work on the theory that an interventionist super-intelligence, would actually be such, and not something that attracts attention by setting fire to bushes
Thats a logical fallacy.

God has far greater mind than any human = No human can understand God's mind

This is actually undeniable logic, thus to claim you know how God would act is a clear logical error.

Smaller mind cannot contain greater mind, since they are different in size = No human mind can contain God's mind

No human mind can contain God's mind = God's mind cannot in any way be understood by any human mind.

This logic very much solves all problems regarding arguments against the existence of God, since the very idea that human mind isnt greatest already means it cannot have understanding which greater mind has, thus cannot disprove greater mind. If something seems like a contradiction to smaller mind, it doesnt have to be so to greater mind which has much greater understanding of logic.
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@Sidewalker
Everyone's an ist.
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@Best.Korea
I would suggest that LOGIC is, but human knowledge is currently limited.

Though obviously we could relate superior knowledge to superior logic.

But on the other hand knowledge is not necessarily a guarantee of a logical mind.

Nonetheless, GOD the human idea is both logical and illogical.

And then there is GOD the inevitable process, and as Sidewalker points out, probably not the beardy man.

Beardy men are beardy men.

Which isn't to say.............................................