If morality is subjective, then morality is still objective

Author: Best.Korea

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Tarik
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@TwoMan
“You even contradict your own argument by remaining alive.”
I’m not really a nihilist, ever heard of devils advocate?

“Even if you did mean what you say, you would be the exception to the rule.”
Their is no rule, and I didn’t create the ideology of nihilism so no I’m not on an island by myself and even if I was you’re committing the ad populum fallacy by using that as an argument.

Morality is inherently subjective so, in conclusion, something subjective can be rational.
So are suicide bombers rational? Because their morality says that’s the right thing to do.
TwoMan
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@Tarik
I’m not really a nihilist, ever heard of devils advocate?
I know you're not a nihilist. Imagine if you were. You and every nihilist practicing your described philosophy would be dead unless they actually wanted to be alive.

Their is no rule
The rule is that virtually all living organisms want to remain alive. That is a fact.

So are suicide bombers rational? Because their morality says that’s the right thing to do.
That is irrelevant. 100% adherence to a particular morality is not required for it to exist.
Tarik
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@TwoMan
That is a fact.
And your display of that fact is representative of the ad populum fallacy. That is a fact.

That is irrelevant.
No what’s irrelevant is you making emotional appeals to make a logical argument, that’s inherently fallacious.
TwoMan
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@Tarik
That is a fact.
And your display of that fact is representative of the ad populum fallacy. That is a fact.
It is not a fallacy. It is a fact. It is either true or untrue. That fact verifies the existence of a specific value. Even if only one person wanted to be alive, that value would still exist.

That is irrelevant.
No what’s irrelevant is you making emotional appeals to make a logical argument, that’s inherently fallacious.

If you wish to define self-preservation as an emotion, that is fine with me. That is a descriptive term. It doesn't interfere with the logic and reasonableness of the argument. It doesn't nullify the existence of the fact.
Tarik
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@TwoMan
Even if only one person wanted to be alive, that value would still exist.
No one is disputing that, I am however disputing the rationality of said person, and where the fallacy lies is you thinking just because a value is popular it’s rational.

If you wish to define self-preservation as an emotion, that is fine with me.
Except that’s not what I’m doing, I am however claiming that caring about it is.
TwoMan
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@Tarik
Honestly, at this point, I feel like Michael Palin arguing with John Cleese in the Argument Clinic.
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@TwoMan
@Tarik

In the argument between instinct and thought, instinct usually wins.
TwoMan
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@zedvictor4
In the argument between instinct and thought, instinct usually wins.
No, it doesn't. ;-)
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@TwoMan
@Tarik
Out of curiosity, this question is for both of you.

Do you think that mathematical knowledge is objective knowledge?
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@Tarik
Logic (aka rationality) can only begin once we have a set of premises established.
Not if...
No, there is no IF. This is a fact, that's how it works. To argue anything else is to admit that on it's most basic level, you do not know what logic is.

...we’ve already established that the system in which you defined morality is already illogical (aka irrational).
No, we haven't. This is your claim that you just keep repeating no matter how many times I show you in painstaking detail is wrong.

Logic isn't limited to the real world, that's the point.
…Be that as it may, my claim was limited to the real world so you stepping in a realm outside of that and using it as an answer for the real world is incorrect and nothing but besides the point
Again, you do not understand what a hypothetical is or how it works.

You're making an argument. That argument contains logic. Hypotheticals test the logic of your argument. Testing the logic of your argument is done effectively by removing the content and replacing it with alternative content where biases and other mental obstacles are less pronounced. That's not changing the subject, it's demonstrating the problem with what you're arguing.

I'm sorry this is so difficult for you, but I strongly suggest you spend some time understanding what hypothetical examples are and why they're useful, it will greatly improve your ability to understand reality.

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@Tarik
So are suicide bombers rational? Because their morality says that’s the right thing to do.
If their morality says that's the right thing to do, then the rational course of action is to do it.

The premises of their morality is what you're taking issue with, not their rationality. They're two different things.
TwoMan
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@Sidewalker
Do you think that mathematical knowledge is objective knowledge?
If, by objective knowledge, you mean facts, data, and information that can be verified independently of personal opinions or experiences, then yes.
Tarik
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@TwoMan
Honestly, at this point, I feel like Michael Palin arguing with John Cleese in the Argument Clinic.
Right back at ya my friend 😉 
Tarik
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@Sidewalker
Do you think that mathematical knowledge is objective knowledge?
Yes I do.
Sidewalker
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@TwoMan
@Tarik
Mathematical knowledge, like moral knowledge, is a product of the human mind, and yet, almost no one would say mathematical knowledge is subjective.

At some stage of hominid development, our ancestors acquired a brain structure that afforded them access to the mental world of mathematics.  It then became as much a part of their environment as were the grasslands in which they lived, and they did what animals do, they explored their environment, and what they did was discover objective facts about the reality in which they lived.  Even though mathematics is a creation of the mind, most people accept that mathematical knowledge is objective.

So why would we consider the case that the history of mathematical experience that led us to discover an enriched human environment of objective mathematical knowledge is different than other forms of distinctly human ability. The human experience of reality includes qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, and these ethical intuitions indicate the existence of a moral dimension of reality open to our exploration to discover further objective facts about the nature of the reality of our experience. I see no reason that we can’t arrive at objective moral knowledge in the same way that we arrive at other types of objective knowledge, by observation we come to discern underlying principles which are then tested by examining how well those principles align with further observations of the world of our experience.

The simple self-evident experiential reality of a human being is one that is imbued with qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, consequently it is reasonable to accept as an objective fact that we are morally responsible causal agents. Therefore, it is by direct observation that we can conclude that there is real mental or moral causality in the universe, and from that, we can conclude that moral knowledge is objective knowledge.

Sidewalker
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@TwoMan
If, by objective knowledge, you mean facts, data, and information that can be verified independently of personal opinions or experiences, then yes.
Why would objective knowledge mean that?  Doesn't all knowledge begin with experience?  Reality is experiential, all we “know” of reality is, by definition, in our heads,

How can any “facts, data, and information” be verified “independently” of “experience”?


TwoMan
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@Sidewalker
How can any “facts, data, and information” be verified “independently” of “experience”?
Feel free to lose the word "experiences" from the definition. That was a dictionary definition. I really haven't given much thought to the concept of objective knowledge.
TwoMan
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@Sidewalker
it is reasonable to accept as an objective fact that we are morally responsible causal agents.
What you say makes sense but there are many who would challenge that premise saying that due to deterministic cause and effect, free will is an illusion and we are ultimately not causal agents. To be a causal agent, one would need to create an uncaused cause. I am undecided as I haven't been able to disprove that notion. How do you respond to the assertion that any action you take is due not to a choice, but to the realization of your preferences which you did not choose but were created through cause and effect from external forces (genetics, environment, society, etc).
Sidewalker
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@TwoMan
it is reasonable to accept as an objective fact that we are morally responsible causal agents.
What you say makes sense but there are many who would challenge that premise saying that due to deterministic cause and effect, free will is an illusion and we are ultimately not causal agents. To be a causal agent, one would need to create an uncaused cause. I am undecided as I haven't been able to disprove that notion. How do you respond to the assertion that any action you take is due not to a choice, but to the realization of your preferences which you did not choose but were created through cause and effect from external forces (genetics, environment, society, etc).
This post negates every single one of your previous posts in this thread.

Are you saying you can do the "Argument Clinic" thing all by yourself?
Tarik
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No, there is no IF. This is a fact, that's how it works. To argue anything else is to admit that on it's most basic level, you do not know what logic is.
If that’s how it works then keep that same energy when I give you mine.

No, we haven't. This is your claim that you just keep repeating no matter how many times I show you in painstaking detail is wrong.
It’s not painstaking detail when you’re making assumptions about the point of contention in your premise.

“You're making an argument. That argument contains logic. Hypotheticals test the logic of your argument.”
I was also making a truth claim, you changed the subject by bringing up an unrealistic hypothetical and calling it the truth instead which is a lie, you attempted to reject a what is claim with an unrealistic what if scenario, that’s not logical at all so miss me with that you don’t know how logic works nonsense, that’s a compliment coming from you.

“The premises of their morality is what you're taking issue with, not their rationality. They're two different things.”
Again you’re assuming that morality is a rational concept, forget about morality for a minute (I can do hypotheticals too) if a concept is already established as irrational what need is there to form a premise and conclusion around it? Answer that for me.
TwoMan
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@Sidewalker
This post negates every single one of your previous posts in this thread.
I don't see it that way. My posts were to show that something subjective can be rational. Knowledge was never mentioned, nor was causal agency. As I said, I am undecided on the issue.
Tarik
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@Sidewalker
Therefore, it is by direct observation that we can conclude that there is real mental or moral causality in the universe, and from that, we can conclude that moral knowledge is objective knowledge.
You believe in an afterlife?
Tarik
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@TwoMan
My posts were to show that something subjective can be rational. Knowledge was never mentioned, nor was causal agency.
Knowledge is rational two

Honestly, at this point, I feel like Michael Palin arguing with John Cleese in the Argument Clinic.
TwoMan
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@Tarik
Knowledge is rational two
Is knowledge rational if it is not true? Or is it then not considered knowledge? There are many that claim to have knowledge the 2020 election was rigged. Is that actually knowledge and is it rational?
Sidewalker
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@TwoMan
it is reasonable to accept as an objective fact that we are morally responsible causal agents.
What you say makes sense but there are many who would challenge that premise saying that due to deterministic cause and effect, free will is an illusion and we are ultimately not causal agents.
Those arguments presuppose determinism without establishing determinism as a fact, which is to say that they are invalid arguments.

To be a causal agent, one would need to create an uncaused cause.
That’s nonsense, to be a causal agent we merely need the ability to foresee the consequences of our actions, deliberate, choose among alternatives, and act in accordance with those preceding conclusions.

Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates. A conscious state includes a desire or intention, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.  Such conscious states can have causal effect to bring about further states for the sake of values, purposes, and intents, which are not reducible to the purely physical state of your argument.

I am undecided as I haven't been able to disprove that notion.
Either you aren’t trying very hard or you haven’t given it any thought at all then. It only takes a cursory understanding of science to see that notion has been proven false for well over a century.

Determinism requires the complete causal closure of the material world; science has not even come close to establishing the causal closure of the material world. 

Determinism was just a thought experiment 200 years ago, what Laplace (and before him Leibnitz) proposed, was explicitly that, IF the mathematics we apply to our physical systems is consistent and complete, which is to say that mathematics itself is completely deterministic (Godel proved that it isn’t), AND reality is completely circumscribed by Newtonian mechanics (and it isn’t), AND the motion of every particle in the universe can in principle be predicted from exact knowledge of its position, momentum, and the forces acting on it (and it can’t),  AND everything occurred within a single, universal reference frame where an absolute Euclidean space and an absolute time that passes uniformly, are independent aspects of reality (and they aren’t), THEN “theoretically”, all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by purely physical causes such that, there is one and only one possible effect for a particular cause or set of causes, (and there isn’t).

The two most prevailing scientific theories, Relativity Theory and Quantum Physics are explicit that reality is not the Newtonian World Machine that Laplace believed in, and Heisenberg showed us that even in principle, adequate knowledge of a particle’s position, momentum, and the forces acting on it are impossible, the requisite exactness of those quantities just doesn’t occur in the real world.

How do you respond to the assertion that any action you take is due not to a choice, but to the realization of your preferences which you did not choose but were created through cause and effect from external forces (genetics, environment, society, etc).
I’d respond that the denial of the experiential reality of every waking moment, and the negation of the validity of every moral and legal system found in every known time and place where humans have ever existed is an extraordinary claim which necessarily requires extraordinary evidence, and no evidence whatsoever doesn’t qualify as extraordinary.
Sidewalker
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@Tarik
Therefore, it is by direct observation that we can conclude that there is real mental or moral causality in the universe, and from that, we can conclude that moral knowledge is objective knowledge.
You believe in an afterlife?
That's quite a non-sequitur.  

Are you making a religious argument?  
TwoMan
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@Sidewalker
I appreciate the response. I'm going to quote you the next time I argue in favor of free will.
Sidewalker
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@TwoMan
This post negates every single one of your previous posts in this thread.
I don't see it that way. My posts were to show that something subjective can be rational. Knowledge was never mentioned, nor was causal agency. As I said, I am undecided on the issue.
If Determinism negates freedom to act and Free Will is an illusion, then you deny the very basis of reason, the idea that "something subjective can be rational" is an illusion and the very idea that you could "decide" is negated, it is incoherent to say you are "undecided".   
TwoMan
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@Sidewalker
If Determinism negates freedom to act and Free Will is an illusion, then you deny the very basis of reason, the idea that "something subjective can be rational" is an illusion and the very idea that you could "decide" is negated, it is incoherent to say you are "undecided". 
Fair enough. What do you consider to be the basis of reason?
Sidewalker
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@Tarik
Therefore, it is by direct observation that we can conclude that there is real mental or moral causality in the universe, and from that, we can conclude that moral knowledge is objective knowledge.
You believe in an afterlife?
OK, I went back a couple pages, and I see that you are making a religious argument. 

The answer to your question is yes, I believe in an afterlife, but not in any traditional sense.  

In response to the religious view that morality depends on the willof God, I don't believe that makes morality objective, it just makes it subjective on a cosmic scale.