If morality is subjective, then morality is still objective

Author: Best.Korea

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Tarik
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@TwoMan
I'm just saying that different people have different values and thus, different moral standards which makes them inherently subjective.
But who’s to say those values are moral? What if they’re immoral values?
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@Tarik
But who’s to say those values are moral? What if they’re immoral values?
Values in and of themselves are not necessarily moral or immoral. It is the choices and actions one makes based on those values that are moral or immoral.
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@TwoMan
It is the choices and actions one makes based on those values that are moral or immoral.
But moral standards isn’t just a descriptive, it’s a prescriptive in the sense that everybody should follow it in order to accomplish their goals. Question is what’s a goal that we all have in common? That’s the pursuit of happiness.
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@Tarik
But moral standards isn’t just a descriptive, it’s a prescriptive in the sense that everybody should follow it in order to accomplish their goals. Question is what’s a goal that we all have in common? That’s the pursuit of happiness.
I agree that most people value happiness. Happiness means different things to different people. It is not, however, moral or immoral. The actions one takes in that pursuit can be determined to be moral or immoral.
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@TwoMan
The actions one takes in that pursuit can be determined to be moral or immoral.
Yes through heaven or hell, the moral actions are rewarded in heaven and the immoral actions are punished in hell.
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@Tarik
Yes through heaven or hell, the moral actions are rewarded in heaven and the immoral actions are punished in hell.
Since I can't say one way or another if that is true, I have nothing meaningful so say in response.
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@TwoMan
Hey TwoMan.

Perhaps heaven and hell do or don't exist.

But as things stand, reiterating fantasy concepts is a wholly subjective process.

And as I see it, violence promoted in the name of subjective fantasy is more than a tad immoral.

But then, one mans morality is another's immorality...Such is subjective data processing.


And if there is an interventionist GOD, the machinations of the organic soup that drives evolution on Planet Earth is probably of no consequence within it's bigger Universal scheme of things. Or not as the case may be.

By now that GOD/those GODS, are probably billions of light years away doing something else. Or not as the case may be.

Such is my subjective fantasy take on things.
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@zedvictor4
But then, one mans morality is another's immorality...Such is subjective data processing.
That pretty much sums it up.
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@TwoMan
That pretty much sums it up.

As easy 1,2,3 thats how easy morals can be....sung to M Jackson tune

Flatlander ancient perspective

Heaven above as that is where the life giving water comes from the high Himalaya mountains
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( * i  * )~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Hell below as that is where sewage, death poor quality water come from


Omni-considerate comprehensive perspective

There exists a finite whole of not yet understood, intricately interrelated  complexities we call Universe.

Outside our finite occupied space Universe,  is the macro-infinite, truly empty, non-occupied space.

See time stamp 00:44 for James Webb findings of impossible galaxies as should not be found with our standard cosmological model

Does this effect our morals in regards to truth?  It should not, as long as we remain open to the facts we still do and eternally, may not understand all that exists.

This vid does not change our view of a finite occupied space Universe, even if the data is correctly interpreted. It just means there is more to understand of the intricate finite set of complexies regarding Universe and biologic life.

The ole saying goes, the more we observe, the less we understand.  Or something like that.
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@ebuc
In one way

Finite potential

Would become

Emptiness.
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@zedvictor4
In one way Finite potential Would become Emptiness.

Outside of finite occupied space Universe is the macro-infinite, truly non-occupied space

( ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^  Inward ^ (Gravitational Integrity) ^ Inward ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< )
>>> Past >>>> One Way Arrow of Entropic Time >>>>> Future is maximally dispersed time events ...........................)

( ....>......Past....>.....In......(  ^ * i  * v  ) ...>...Out..>.. Future...>....maximally dispersed occupied space   ......(  )(  )(  )(  )

(...<....Past .....<....Out..... ( ^ * i  * v ) ...< ...In ...< ....Future ...< ..maximal return as incoming  time  events ...(^v )(^v)(^v)
(^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^  Inward ^  (Gravitational Integrity) ^ Inward ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^ >< ^)

Outside of finite occupied space Universe is the macro-infinite, truly non-occupied space





Tarik
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@TwoMan
Values are subjective. 
Do you consider values and morals to be the same thing?
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@Tarik
Do you consider values and morals to be the same thing?
No, I don't. In a nutshell, values relate to our wants and needs; morals relate to the means (choices, actions), by which, we attain them.
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@TwoMan
No, I don't. In a nutshell, values relate to our wants and needs; morals relate to the means (choices, actions), by which, we attain them.
The reason I asked is because I can agree that values are subjective because we all care about different things but morality I consider to be objective because something’s are either right or wrong regardless of what one thinks.
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@Tarik
something’s are either right or wrong regardless of what one thinks.
What are those things? Is all morality objective or just some things?
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@TwoMan
Is all morality objective or just some things?
That’s difficult to answer because morality could be complicated at times (at least for me).
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@Tarik
To say that morality is both objective and complicated sounds contradictory. Or do you mean that even though a given moral action to be taken is objective, it can be very difficult to discern?
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@TwoMan
To say that morality is both objective and complicated sounds contradictory. Or do you mean that even though a given moral action to be taken is objective, it can be very difficult to discern?
The latter.
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@Tarik
Regardless of whether they think morality is objective or subjective, I think most people have a difficult time in some situations deciding which course of action is the morally correct one to pursue.
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@TwoMan
Regardless of whether they think morality is objective or subjective, I think most people have a difficult time in some situations deciding which course of action is the morally correct one to pursue.
Ergo the invention of coins,  so as humans could flip-a-coin to decide the pathway forward. 

I mean, like, who needs logical, common sense critical thinking when the  flipping a coin is so much easier?

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@ebuc
I mean, like, who needs logical, common sense critical thinking when the  flipping a coin is so much easier?
Coin is right 50% of the time no matter what.

Average human isnt even 20% right.

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Sorry for starting a new thread. I didn't realize this was up

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11801-the-case-for-objective-morality
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@Double_R
“Anyone who is not treated with the same deference as everyone else is by definition being treated unfairly.”
Then I assume you’re pro-life? Because the unborn aren’t treated with the same deference as everyone else who is born.
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@Tarik
@Double_R
“Anyone who is not treated with the same deference as everyone else is by definition being treated unfairly.”
Two additional questions - would you say that literally everyone is treated unfairly as no two people are treated with the exact same deference? They may be treated similarly, but not the same. People treat people differently when considering who is morally deserving of what, which includes rewards and punishments. Or do those things accurately balance the scales when deference is not equal?
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@Tarik
Then I assume you’re pro-life? Because the unborn aren’t treated with the same deference as everyone else who is born.
They are treated the same. If I was unable to live without access to your body and you refused to grant me that access, I would die.
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@TwoMan
would you say that literally everyone is treated unfairly as no two people are treated with the exact same deference?
No two people are treated the same. Whether that alone constitutes unfairness is a matter what your threshold for unfairness is. You can claim person A is being treated unfairly because their slice of cake was 0.01% smaller than person B's, but at that point you're just diluting the word down to the point where it no longer carries any meaning.
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@TwoMan
Two additional questions - would you say that literally everyone is treated unfairly as no two people are treated with the exact same deference? They may be treated similarly, but not the same. People treat people differently when considering who is morally deserving of what, which includes rewards and punishments. Or do those things accurately balance the scales when deference is not equal?
The latter.
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@Double_R
If I was unable to live without access to your body and you refused to grant me that access, I would die.
…But that’s not the case.
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@Tarik
What's not the case?
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@Double_R
What's not the case?
You being unable to live without access to my body, let me break this down so you understand, someone that is unable to live without access to someone else’s body is not treated with the same deference as someone who is able to live without access to someone else’s body, under the pro-choice view. So are you or are you not a “good” person by your own metric?