Israel v Palestine

Author: TheUnderdog

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DavidAZZ
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@ludofl3x
Can we agree that if his response was to punch you in the balls, then as your writhed in pain on the floor, kick you in the back until you had three broken ribs, then punch your face until both your eyes closed, then drag you out of the house to take a piss on your back, that such a response is not justified?
Love the visual!  You must have had a brother.

Or are all responses to aggression justified?
I see what you are saying.   What dictates an appropriate response, correct?  I suppose that depends on the situation and the severity, but I would agree with Israel in this situation. 

If we look back and say that Israel is the aggressor by "bullying" the Gaza area, then maybe their kidnapping and baby beheading could be considered appropriate.  They are trying to get from under the thumb of the Israelis.  So then Israel's response from that could just as equally justified.  I believe the goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas and I would say that is appropriate.  Kill or be killed kind of thing and unfortunately there are casualties of war.
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@badger
I think Hamas can be put down like dogs. 
Dude, what do you have against dogs? Or are you referring to humane, lethal injection?

DavidAZZ
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@TheUnderdog
Not with the US taxpayer dime.  I believe in America first, not Israel first.  Same thing with Ukraine.
Agree.  Every Nation has to have their own ability to defend itself.  If they are solely dependent on other nations, they are not sovereign and they are just a branch of the nation(s) they depend on.

Israel is our Ally and so we support them when the need arises.  That's how alliances work.  It would go the other way if we were to be attacked.  

The issue with Ukraine is that it is a "proxy war".  Meaning, we are fighting Russia with our weapons, but with Ukraine's people.  Ukraine would fall without our support and with this, I think we should not allow gobs of money and supplies to be sent there.  They are a dead man fighting, only propped up with the stick of US funding.  Israel is much different.

You want to help the Jews?  Then let them move to the US documented or not.  MAGA world won't allow that though.
The Jews are not fleeing for their life though.  They are actively kicking butt.  If the need arose for them to flee, then we would create some sort of asylum for them, but this is not the case. 
"MAGA" doesn't allow a free for all at the border because we don't know who is coming in. There are a lot of terrorists being caught but that doesn't count for any of the "got aways" that have not been caught or even noticed.  It's not that we are racists (which we are not), it just too dangerous to allow everyone over the border with out proper vetting.  


TheUnderdog
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@DavidAZZ
Israel is our Ally and so we support them when the need arises.  That's how alliances work.  It would go the other way if we were to be attacked.  
The left says the same thing about Ukraine.  If the US gets attacked (highly unlikely given we are in NATO and NATO combined has close a majority of the world's military spending and no way will the rest of the world unite against NATO to invade a NATO nation).  The US population is 340 million people; Israel's is 10 million.  Israel won't' be able to help us much in the rare event the US does get attacked.

I think we should not allow gobs of money and supplies to be sent there.  They are a dead man fighting, only propped up with the stick of US funding.  Israel is much different.
How?  Without US funding, Ukraine loses land to Russia; without US funding; Israel loses land to Palestine.  Neither are America's problem.

The Jews are not fleeing for their life though.  They are actively kicking butt.  
Alright; so the Jews in Israel don't need our help, so don't give it to them.

If the need arose for them to flee, then we would create some sort of asylum for them, but this is not the case. 
What if the Jews came here undocumented (some will)?  Would you send them back to the middle east where they get bombed?

"MAGA" doesn't allow a free for all at the border because we don't know who is coming in. 
There are 340 million people in the US; I don't know who the vast majority of them are and that's fine; they are strangers.  They should not get kicked out just because I don't know who they are.  I'm an American Citizen; I would prefer it if an ever expanding bureaucratic state knew practically nothing on me because I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful tyranny.

 There are a lot of terrorists being caught but that doesn't count for any of the "got aways" that have not been caught or even noticed.
If someone commits a terrorist attack, then they should get killed.  However, the vast majority of the undocumented are not terrorists.

You may say

You need to prevent terrorist attacks
Here's how you do that deportation free:

You need to understand what terrorist target.  9/11 happened to the twin towers; not a nuclear power plant (even though millions of people rely on a few nuclear power plants; only a few thousand people rely on the twin towers); because terrorists go after symbols (which the twin towers are and a nuclear power plant is not).  Causing suffering is not the goal of terrorists; going after symbols is the goal.

So what do you do to prevent future terrorist attacks?  You protect the symbols.  Lets take the Twin towers as an example; the new equivalent of that is the freedom tower.  To prevent the freedom towers from being destroyed, you hire 2-5 pilots whose job it is to circle the freedom tower making sure nobody tries to recreate 9/11 and shoot down any plane that gets too close (due to us thinking they would destroy the towers).  You also have airport style security at the freedom tower so nobody could walk in and plant bombs in the freedom tower.

This is a much better way to deal with terrorist attack prevention than deporting millions of people that had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.
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@TheUnderdog
My opinion has not really changed on this. 

Imagine that you punched your sister. You are in the wrong, but what if you punched your sister because she stole your favorite toy and broke it. Well you still shouldn’t have reacted with violence, but it was provoked, and so is more understandable. If your mom came in right at that time and saw you guys fighting, she would say, “I don’t care who started it, just stop fighting!”

Israel has a right to defend itself, but not a right to be committing horrible human rights violations. Instead of attacking directly, they should take a step back and attack the root of the problem. Neither side is in the right.

In the words of my mother, “please, just stop fighting!”.
badger
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International community should castrate Israel militarily like was done to Japan after WW2. Lands should be given back to Palestine. Sit UN peacekeeping in their borders for a decade. 

But I guess the yanks want nukes pointed at the middle east or something. 
Swagnarok
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A humanitarian disaster for sure, but if there was no way for Hamas to wage this war on Israel without the civilians under its care being caught in the crossfire (given the extreme density of Gaza), then they just shouldn't have started it. Plain and simple.
Israel has an unconditional right to retaliate against the group that killed 1,200 of its people in cold blood, and more importantly to neutralize them so they can never do it again. That right doesn't magically disappear because they're hiding amid a sea of civilians.
DavidAZZ
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@TheUnderdog
The left says the same thing about Ukraine.  If the US gets attacked (highly unlikely given we are in NATO and NATO combined has close a majority of the world's military spending and no way will the rest of the world unite against NATO to invade a NATO nation).  The US population is 340 million people; Israel's is 10 million.  Israel won't' be able to help us much in the rare event the US does get attacked.
But they can help in what they can.  They may not be able to take on the world, but they can still help.  Ukraine cannot help unless you consider the money laundering helping.

How?  Without US funding, Ukraine loses land to Russia; without US funding; Israel loses land to Palestine.  Neither are America's problem.
Israel can easily defend itself from Palestine.  They don't need our support.  Ukraine is nearly done and it's only being held up by the US intervention.

Alright; so the Jews in Israel don't need our help, so don't give it to them.
Agreed. I don't think any money should go to Israel since they can easily defend themselves, BUT since they are allies we have to live up the alliance.  

What if the Jews came here undocumented (some will)?  Would you send them back to the middle east where they get bombed?
If they can prove their "jewishness", no.  But don't you think the US enemies would claim asylum as a Jew too?

There are 340 million people in the US; I don't know who the vast majority of them are and that's fine; they are strangers.  They should not get kicked out just because I don't know who they are.  I'm an American Citizen; I would prefer it if an ever expanding bureaucratic state knew practically nothing on me because I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful tyranny.
Maybe I didn't say this correctly.  There are groups of people that are actively trying to dismantle and destroy America.  If those groups of people are "home grown" or if they come in from outside the nation, they are still a threat.  So I never said to kick them out because we don't know who they are.  I said to vet them to make sure we know who they are.  They have no ID's, social security numbers, credit scores, etc.  They are ghosts according to the US system.  Anyone a citizen inside the US will have a track record of their history, and therefore, known to be a threat or not.  The FBI has a watch list with those kinds of people already.  

If someone commits a terrorist attack, then they should get killed.  However, the vast majority of the undocumented are not terrorists.
Agree.

Causing suffering is not the goal of terrorists; going after symbols is the goal.
Debatable, but good observation.

This is a much better way to deal with terrorist attack prevention than deporting millions of people that had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.
Deport the illegals and you will catch the terrorists too (too broad of a brush, I know).  I'm all for immigration and I do think the immigration system is broken and much too slow for anyone wanting to come here for a new life.  I live in Phoenix and so I personally KNOW and work with undocumented people ALL THE TIME.  I want those people to come here and get a better life, BUT we must make sure we bring in good people and not crooks, cartels and terrorists.  You open the flood gates and you get the carp(nasty) with the bass fish(tasty).  Make it specific and we can get the best of both worlds.

TheUnderdog
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@DavidAZZ
They may not be able to take on the world, but they can still help. 
They may be able to help by sending $200 million in a year to help us (it won't be their whole military budget).  We spend $4 billion helping them when they are more likely to need our help than vice versa.  Ukraine is about as likely to help the US if we get invaded as Israel is.  Although, if the US gets invaded, then who would actually do the invading?  No way is Canada going to invade the US.

BUT since they are allies we have to live up the alliance.  
The left says this with Ukraine.  They have their excuses for Ukraine and the right has their excuses for Israel; but excuses are like assholes; everyone's got one and they all stink.

If they can prove their "jewishness", no.  But don't you think the US enemies would claim asylum as a Jew too?
If a hypothetical Gazan hated America, then why would they move here?  It's like expecting a hardcore Trump supporter from Texas to move to San Fransisco; it won't happen.  If a Texan does move to San Fransisco, they almost certainly are left of center (pro San Fransisco).  If a Gazan moves to America, then they are almost certainly pro America.

If those groups of people are "home grown" or if they come in from outside the nation, they are still a threat.  So I never said to kick them out because we don't know who they are.  I said to vet them to make sure we know who they are. 
So then if you think someone whether foreign born or native born is a terrorist, then have the FBI go after them; not ICE.  If your solution is to vet the undocumented without the threat of deportation (execution if they are a terrorist; citizenship if they aren't), then that's fine; but then you would have to go into Queens and similar areas just to give everyone papers in their home.

Deport the illegals and you will catch the terrorists too (too broad of a brush, I know). 
You just said this:

So I never said to kick them out because we don't know who they are.
Broad brushes are collectivist.  People should be treated as individuals, not groups.  This is why I don't agree with any AR 15 ban because the vast majority of AR 15 owners aren't mass shooters.

 I'm all for immigration and I do think the immigration system is broken and much too slow for anyone wanting to come here for a new life.
Name me a single requirement you would impose on all immigrants that if a native born citizen does not meet it, then you would kick them out of the US.  I can't think of any, so I would have to support open borders/abolishing ICE or whatever term you want to use.

I live in Phoenix and so I personally KNOW and work with undocumented people ALL THE TIME.  I want those people to come here and get a better life, BUT we must make sure we bring in good people and not crooks, cartels and terrorists. 
Unfortunately, it's a package deal; deporting the crooks, cartels, and terrorists also means deporting the undocumented people you know and don't want to get kicked out.  The alternative is to execute the terrorists, the cartels if they target kids, and the crooks would be sent to community service and if they run off, then they get recaptured and whipped so they complete their service (revenue generated goes to the victims of the crime).  Theft should be designed to rehabilite thieves so they are less likely to steal, but also the victims should be compensated paid for by the ex thief's hard labor.

You open the flood gates and you get the carp(nasty) with the bass fish(tasty).  Make it specific and we can get the best of both worlds.
I don't fish (and I'm assuming you don't either because you live in a desert state) but the difference is you can tell these fish apart by looking at them.  You can't do that with the terrorist/good immigrant dichotomy.  It's better to kill the ones that are terrorists; let the safe ones in; maybe an Ellis Island approach that is extremely cheap and quick. 

I want more people in the US to grow GDP the most to make it easier to pay off the debt and to keep America ahead of the communist Chinese.
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@HistoryBuff
that's true. But it's like someone punches you in the face, so you go and get your gun and you murder them, and their wife, and their children, and their dog. It is true that they attacked 1st, but the actions of both sides are not even comparable. 
well stated
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@DavidAZZ
I believe the goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas and I would say that is appropriate.  Kill or be killed kind of thing and unfortunately there are casualties of war.
perhaps there is no such thing as "the moral high-ground"

when lives are under threat, humans become wolves