Israel v Palestine

Author: TheUnderdog

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Total: 71
#31
cristo71
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@HistoryBuff
My post was about understanding why people take the sides they do on this conflict. I detailed how one can understand why a westerner such as yourself would side against Israel, which is a western nation and US ally. My curiosity about your position was satisfied last time we discussed it in a whole other thread, and I don’t have a great need to see that discussion history repeat itself.

#32
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@cristo71
My post was about understanding why people take the sides they do on this conflict.
but your post was vapid. It just tried to reduce thought on a complicated issue to "western=bad". People are capable of looking at a complicated situation and coming to a conclusion. You said nothing that would help anyone actually understand better. You just listed some stereotypes. 

#33
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@HistoryBuff
I will admit that my explanation isn’t exactly flattering to postmodernist thinking, but 1) it wasn’t directed at you, 2) it wasn’t meant to be flattering, and 3) you have only demonstrated how you fit into my summary rather than depart from it. That you don’t intend to fit the school of thought I describe only affirms it.

Edit: if you must pick a single takeaway, it shouldn’t be “Western = bad.” Maybe “oppressed = good (as in the good guys)”, or maybe “limited to a binary paradigm.”
#34
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@cristo71
I will admit that my explanation isn’t exactly flattering to postmodernist
it has nothing to do with flattering. It's like saying asian people can't drive, or blonds are dumb. It's just stereotyping people based on your flawed perceptions. 

3) you have only demonstrated how you fit into my summary rather than depart from it.
this is just dismissive. You make sweeping generalizations about 100's of millions of people and dismiss the arguments of anyone in your stereotyped group. 

You aren't doing anything useful or informative any more than racists or xenophobes are. 
#35
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@HistoryBuff
“and I don’t have a great need to see that discussion history repeat itself.”

Yep, this is going the same way as last time we discussed this issue, which is why I bowed out then and didn’t tag you in my first response to this thread. You clearly adhere to the “whoever makes the first accusation of racism is in the right” school of thought. *yawn*
#36
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The post was quite clearly dopey racism. Hmm, I can't understand white man siding with brown man. Ah, postmodernist school of thought. Western = bad.  Now I understand. That means I'm not a racist. 

The fuck are you talking about dude lol.

Topic's author
#37
TheUnderdog
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@prefix
Hamas attacked  Israel. Israel COUNTERATTACKED.
I don't want Israel counterattacking if the American taxpayer has to pay for it.  I believe in America first, for both Ukraine and Israel.

You may say:

Israel is our ally
The left says the same thing about Ukraine.

Or:

Israel helps us against the Muslims!
The left says the same thing about Ukraine and the Russians.

Funding Ukraine or Israel is not putting America first!

You want to help the Jews?  Then let them move to the US documented or not.  MAGA world won't allow that though.

#38
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@badger
The fuck are you talking about dude lol.
Oh, if only I could believe you were truly curious about this. Yet another adherent of “the first accuser of racism must be right!”

Funny thing, Jews have historically distinguished themselves from white people. It’s actually the pro Palestinian activists who tend to pigeonhole Israelis as “white.”

#39
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Only thing curious to me here is your apparent complete lack of self awareness.
#40
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@cristo71
 You clearly adhere to the “whoever makes the first accusation of racism is in the right” school of thought.
I didn't accuse you of racism. I accused you of making the same type of arguments they do. You group a large amount of people into a group based on your opinion of their characteristics, then generalize their intentions and beliefs based on your flawed generalizations. I'm not saying I'm automatically right because you're doing this. I'm saying you haven't said anything useful. You just make vapid, useless, generalizations. 
#41
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@badger
Maybe so. I’m not convinced that you fully understand what I am saying though. How do you know that your conclusion isn’t based upon a misunderstanding on your part or merely clumsy wording on my part? Complex subjects are prone to these pitfalls.
#42
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@HistoryBuff
I didn't accuse you of racism.
You have an odd— and dismissive— way of NOT doing that.

You group a large amount of people into a group based on your opinion of their characteristics,
Please point to where I do this.
#43
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Maybe so. I’m not convinced that you fully understand what I am saying though. How do you know that your conclusion isn’t based upon a misunderstanding on your part or merely clumsy wording on my part? Complex subjects are prone to these pitfalls.

Let's see.

As the tit for tat “who is worse” arguments can go on ad nauseam regarding Israel and Palestine, I try to look for more fundamental reasons (or biases) why people side with one over the other. Muslims and Jews are generally pretty easy to understand as far as which side they favor. Westerners favoring Israel is also pretty straightforward. But when white westerners favor Palestinians? That is more difficult to understand. I have observed that it involves one or more elements which are all rooted in postmodernist thought.

Or:
Why would a white man ever side with a brown man?

Palestinian = non Western = poor = oppressed = inherently good
Israel = Western = rich and powerful = oppressor = inherently bad
Or:
Ah, it's because they think the west is bad.

There is also what I call “morality by casualty rate”:

High casualties = defenseless  = oppressed = inherently good
Low casualties = powerful = oppressor = inherently bad

Or:
Powerful = bad. Again, really the person just thinks the west is bad.

Once a people group has been judged as oppressed, no amount of malevolent action will make them decidedly bad. Conversely, when a group has been deemed an oppressor, no amount of benevolent action will cause them to be viewed as good.

Bunch of rubbish. From what I've seen of Hamas they're sick bastards. They're decidedly bad, beyond redemption. But Israel made them that. Palestinians live like penned animals. Israel has brutalised these people for decades. You reap what you sow.

Of course, the Holocaust throws a curveball in this binary of Israelis as oppressors, which is why that historic tragedy is often minimized, ignored, negated, or the argument is made that Palestinians have undergone similar at the hands of the Jews.
Twaddle.

What's complex here? Israel is clearly chief bastard in this situation. They penned and poked at human beings like they were animals until those animals started to bite. How do I side with Israel in that?

Nothing to do with west = bad. It's Israel = bad. You're inventing some silly SJW bleeding heart box to put Palestine sympathisers into because otherwise you're just a racist with nothing to say about the next person.

It's really some of dopiest shit I've read on here in a while. 


#44
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I am genuinely fucking flabbergasted at how someone could write that shit. I'd be appalled if it wasn't so amusing. 
#45
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@badger
Why would a white man ever side with a brown man?
Hmm… you are eager to accuse me of oversimplifying things into a strawman argument, yet here you go doing exactly what you accuse me of.

Instead, interpret my question as “Why would a westerner side with an anti western people against a western nation?”

Ah, it's because they think the west is bad.
Generally speaking, yes. You act as though I’m making this claim up out of thin air. There are countless articles and books on the growing anti western sentiment that has been brewing in universities since the 70’s.

From what I've seen of Hamas they're sick bastards. They're decidedly bad, beyond redemption
Do you want Hamas to surrender to Israel?

Of course not because you believe this to be the case:

But Israel made them that. Palestinians live like penned animals. Israel has brutalised these people for decades. You reap what you sow.
For all the atrocities committed by Hamas, you ultimately blame Israel rather than Hamas for them. You believe Israel is decidedly worse in all the tit for tat, back and forth, decades of wrongs done on both sides. And why do you trust more the Palestinian version of events and who is the aggressor over the Israeli version of events and who is the aggressor?
#46
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Instead, interpret my question as “Why would a westerner side with an anti western people against a western nation?”
Ok but you wrote the word white. You did, not me.

So let's substitute that back in one second:


Why would a white person

Next, anti western people. Brown people you meant here right? Since the wonder was how white western people would side with these anti western people. Supposedly brown or black westerners might.

Let's substitute that back in

Why would a white person side with brown people

against a western nation. Again, white was the kicker here right?
Let's substitute that back


Why would a white person side with brown people against white people?

Can't be fucking serious right now.
#47
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@badger
. But when white westerners favor Palestinians? That is more difficult to understand. 

I think he is saying that if America is so supposedly "racist" and that racism is natural and built into everybody (according to the latest eugenics junk science)...

If all of this is true,(and it is so clearly not true)  then it makes no sense that large swaths of American white people are cheering on the killing of foreign white people by Palestinians (who Americans are "naturally" supposed to hate due to unconscious racial bias or whatever BS theory is taught today).

What's even more baffling is that America is supposed to be very anti-homophobic, designating an entire month and endless hate laws to enforce this; yet there is a huge push by LGBT for Palestine when Hamas would toss every one of them off the highest building given the chance.... The ideological differences between west and east are massive and real unlike the fake differences of skin color.

Baffling is the least word I would choose.
#48
cristo71
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@badger
Ok but you wrote the word white. You did, not me.
Damn… I really must remind myself that the “Racism!” gun has a hair trigger around here.

Perhaps I skipped a step in my thought process explanation. The reason I specified “white westerners” is because it would be easier to understand why a westerner of color might be inclined to sympathize more with Palestinians— Palestinians being the oppressed people of color in this binary paradigm, and a perceived kinship and sympathy there would be understandable.

I’ll ask again: And why do you trust more the Palestinian version of events and who is the aggressor over the Israeli version of events and who is the aggressor?

But… I’m starting to get the feeling this is like talking to a wall… a wall that screams “rrrrracism!” whenever the accusation can be shoehorned in.

#49
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@badger
@cristo71
Something Wylted said in another thread stuck with me. The worst thing that can happen is for society to become so tolerant that they are utterly consumed by a an intolerant nation. If that doesn't describe what's going on right now with Hamas, what other way can you describe it?
#50
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@cristo71
But… I’m starting to get the feeling this is like talking to a wall… a wall that screams “rrrrracism!” whenever the accusation can be shoehorned in.

You wrote the words dude. I just thought they were beautiful. 


I’ll ask again: And why do you trust more the Palestinian version of events and who is the aggressor over the Israeli version of events and who is the aggressor?
Have a read of this:
#51
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@Greyparrot
I think he is saying that if America is so supposedly "racist" and that racism is natural and built into everybody (according to the latest eugenics junk science)...

If all of this is true,(and it is so clearly not true)  then it makes no sense that large swaths of American white people are cheering on the killing of foreign white people by Palestinians (who Americans are "naturally" supposed to hate due to unconscious racial bias or whatever BS theory is taught today).

Yeah, sort of, but more my explanation in post 48. As I said earlier, people tend naturally to side with those who share their values. Americans have more values in common with Israel than with Palestinians. The LGBT aspect you mention is an excellent example of this.
#52
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Something Wylted said in another thread stuck with me. The worst thing that can happen is for society to become so tolerant that they are utterly consumed by a an intolerant nation. If that doesn't describe what's going on right now with Hamas, what other way can you describe it?
They're brown. They probably don't like gays. Eradicate them.

That sounds like a psychopathic mentality and pandering to me. 

Don't you spend all day long writing weird shit about trans people on the internet? Does someone need to take you out the back and put you down?


#53
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@badger
You wrote the words dude.
*sigh* Repetition is the key to learning:

Perhaps I skipped a step in my thought process explanation. The reason I specified “white westerners” is because it would be easier to understand why a westerner of color might be inclined to sympathize more with Palestinians— Palestinians being the oppressed people of color in this binary paradigm, and a perceived kinship and sympathy there would be understandable.
#54
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@cristo71
Americans have more values in common with Israel than with Palestinians
Thats true.

Both Americans and Israel have committed some of the greatest crimes in history.

But I dont normally see people bragging about things like that.

#55
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This was fun for like 10 minutes now it's just sad.

#56
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@badger
They probably don't like gays.
There's no "probable" about it. I am not advocating the death penalty for Hamas just because they use gays as kites. Surely we can force a live-and-let live situation there, somehow.
#57
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@Greyparrot
Something Wylted said in another thread stuck with me. The worst thing that can happen is for society to become so tolerant that they are utterly consumed by a an intolerant nation. If that doesn't describe what's going on right now with Hamas, what other way can you describe it?
Are you sure it was Wylted? I recall saying that actually and falling under the disapproving stare of the “conservative = racism” types.

#58
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@cristo71
Poop, yes you said that.
#59
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I got plenty problems with Islam. I think Hamas can be put down like dogs. 

Israel has brutalised a nation with a population the size of Ireland's for nearly a century. But they're brown and probably don't like gays so that's fine.

What sort of fucking lunatics am I talking to here?

#60
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@badger

Just remembered you responded with this. So, prior to 1967, Israel was basically ok?

Edit:

 I think Hamas can be put down like dogs.
Wait… now you align with Israel’s goal in this conflict?