Kamala is not a US Citizen

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@Casey_Risk
“Its original meaning refers to the political allegiance of an individual and the jurisdiction that a foreign government has over that individual.”

“Birthright citizenship has been implemented by executive fiat, not because it is required by federal law or the Constitution.”



FLRW
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CLAIM: Harris is not an American citizen and therefore cannot serve as commander in chief.
THE FACTS: Completely false. Harris is a natural born U.S. citizen. She was born on Oct. 20, 1964, in Oakland, California, according to a copy of her birth certificate, obtained by The Associated Press.

Her mother, a cancer researcher from India, and her father, an economist from Jamaica, met as graduate students at the University of California, Berkeley.
Under the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, anyone born on U.S. soil is considered a natural born U.S. citizen and eligible to serve as either the vice president or president.
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside,” reads the amendment.
There is no question or legitimate debate about whether a citizen like Harris is eligible to serve as president or vice president, said Jessica Levinson, a professor at Loyola Law School.
“So many legal questions are really nuanced — this isn't one of those situations,” Levinson told the AP on Monday.

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@FLRW
bingo
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@Amber
I think the most charitable interpretation I can give your argument is that there is room for the Supreme Court to potentially change the standard by which the 14th amendment grants citizenship. Even if you're right and the implementation of the birthright clause has been bastardized and abused, it doesn't change the reality of how it's been enforced up to this point, nor does it change the fact that Kamala Harris was born more than 59 years ago and thus was born into a country where the clause had been enforced that way.

It's fine if you don't agree, but your interpretation doesn't change Kamala's legal standing. The absence of a Supreme Court case directly challenging it doesn't serve as support for your case on the constitutionality of the way the birthright clause has been enforced, either. I'm not challenging the merits of your argument because, unless you can somehow get the Supreme Court to take up this case, they're irrelevant, and even if they did, they're over 59 years too late to do so. The Supreme Court isn't going to retroactively deny people the citizenship they were born with.

So, while I think there are lots of problems with your argument, it's entirely besides the point because your argument in no way impacts Kamala Harris's status as a US citizen. You can be entirely correct and still her legal standing doesn't change.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@whiteflame
I'm not challenging the merits of your argument because, unless you can somehow get the Supreme Court to take up this case, they're irrelevant, and even if they did, they're over 59 years too late to do so.
It's incorrect to assume that court rulings can't be retroactive, that is make changes in interpretation that apply to past events.

Post ex facto is a principle applying to changing the rules or adding them in a way that creates criminal or civil liability.

Courts can and constantly do make decisions invalidating previous interpretations or assumptions about statues and constitutions. The fundamental claim of court rulings is not "I have altered the deal, pray I do not alter it further" it is "This was always the rule, it doesn't matter how long you've been ignoring it."

When the supreme court overturned Roe v Wade the claim was not "there was a right to abortion, but now we say there isn't" it was (necessarily) "There was never a constitutional right to an abortion and any law struck down on those grounds is still valid."

Contrast this to bureaucratic decisions like the EPA, OSHA, or the FEC making new rules at random. That is not a claim that they have always been rules. The authority (supposedly) derives from the legislative branch but that does not mean the law specified their rules.

New rules mean ex post facto applies. They can't (legally) retroactively charge you for violating regulations that did not exist.

The only intersection between retroactive interpretation (or reinterpretation) and criminal/civil liability would be intent. If courts had said in the past that there a law meant X but 'it really meant' Y (according to the latest ruling) then nobody could be found to have the intent to violate the law given that they were behaving according to an adjudicated interpretation.

It's not a perfect system, it contains conceptual errors that produce contradictions in edge cases.


The Supreme Court isn't going to retroactively deny people the citizenship they were born with.
"isn't going to", "can't", and "can't legally" are three different things.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
"isn't going to", "can't", and "can't legally" are three different things.
Considering I didn't say "can't" or "can't legally," I don't see how that distinction is important to the argument I'm making, nor do I understand how your long response to my point above this one engages with my argument. You're right, courts do apply decisions retroactively. I never argued that they didn't or couldn't in a wide variety of cases. I argued that it's pretty baffling to believe that they would apply such a decision retroactively in this case.

The notion that they would overturn the way the birthright clause has been enforced and then proceed to retroactively strip people of their citizenship going back 6 decades or more (the required time to include Kamala) and affecting what is likely to be tens of millions of people is, in my view, an exceedingly unlikely state of events. If you want to argue that it's plausible on the basis that the courts have applied other cases retroactively, be my guest, but I can't imagine there's been precedent for such a large-scale effort to render such a large portion of the country who, in a lot of cases, may only be citizens of this country, effectively citizens of nowhere.

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@whiteflame
"isn't going to", "can't", and "can't legally" are three different things.
Considering I didn't say "can't" or "can't legally,"
You implied "can't legally":

and even if they [the supreme court] did [take up the case and find that jurisdiction excluded the children of non-citizens], they're over 59 years too late to do so.

They aren't too late. There is no such thing as too late for reinterpretation of law (in US common law theory).
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@whiteflame
I think the most charitable interpretation I can give your argument is that there is room for the Supreme Court to potentially change the standard by which the 14th amendment grants citizenship. Even if you're right and the implementation of the birthright clause has been bastardized and abused, it doesn't change the reality of how it's been enforced up to this point, nor does it change the fact that Kamala Harris was born more than 59 years ago and thus was born into a country where the clause had been enforced that way.

It's fine if you don't agree, but your interpretation doesn't change Kamala's legal standing. The absence of a Supreme Court case directly challenging it doesn't serve as support for your case on the constitutionality of the way the birthright clause has been enforced, either. I'm not challenging the merits of your argument because, unless you can somehow get the Supreme Court to take up this case, they're irrelevant, and even if they did, they're over 59 years too late to do so. The Supreme Court isn't going to retroactively deny people the citizenship they were born with.

So, while I think there are lots of problems with your argument, it's entirely besides the point because your argument in no way impacts Kamala Harris's status as a US citizen. You can be entirely correct and still her legal standing doesn't change.
well stated
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You implied "can't legally":
I disagree.

They aren't too late. There is no such thing as too late for reinterpretation of law (in US common law theory).
It's too late to do so without inflicting mass harm on a dramatic number of people in the US population. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it could feasibly be implemented.
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@whiteflame
In normal times, I would agree, but not after the past few years of legal juggling by both political parties using lawfare to consolidate government corruption.
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@Greyparrot
If you think this is really a probable outcome, for the judicial system to invalidate the citizenship for so many people going back so many decades and knowingly creating a huge crisis, then I guess we see things differently. 
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@whiteflame
Not probable, but possible.
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@Greyparrot
That’s been ADOL’s point: that it can happen. I accept that there are levers that could be pulled to do this. I do not accept that they are at all likely to be pulled.
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@whiteflame
This year has been a masterclass of probabilities becoming reality. I made a ton of money betting the long shot bet in march that Biden would drop out before the convention. (over 10k)
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@Greyparrot
Just because improbable things have happened politically doesn’t mean everything is up for grabs.
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@Greyparrot
I made a ton of money betting the long shot bet in march that Biden would drop out

Ah, good. You can pay back the loan shark.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yeah I lost that year betting longshots. I didn't bet alot thankfully and didn't bet on Trump at all this year. Just bet all the longshots against against crazy Joe.
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Kamala is NOT a US Citizen. She has dual citizenship in India and Jamaica or can choose one over the other. But she is NOT a US Citizen. 
You are a wack job.

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I made a ton of money betting the long shot bet in march that Biden would drop out before the convention. (over 10k)
Funny you never mentioned that bet of yours in the last 4 months

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@Casey_Risk

List of related research and legal articles regarding the rethinking and re-evaluation of the citizenship clause.

"Just five years after ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court appeared to take a restrictive view in the Slaughter-House Cases, observing (in an aside) that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from [the Clause’s] operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”

"But a decade later, the Court (again in an aside) suggested a broader view in Elk v. Wilkins.63 Elk principally confirmed the pre-Amendment rule that tribal Native Americans lacked birthright citizenship under the Amendment, but in the course of its discussion, the Court observed that such Native Americans were no more subject to the jurisdiction of the United States than “the children born within the United States, of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations”64 (thus arguably implying that other U.S.-born children of aliens were U.S. citizens).65 Ultimately the Court faced the issue directly in United States v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898, holding that the U.S.-born child of lawful Chinese resident immigrants was born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and thus was a U.S. citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment."

"After the Supreme Court rejected the latter conclusion in Wong Kim Ark, the Executive Branch reverted to a broad view of the Clause, concluding that the Clause conveyed citizenship not only to children of permanent residents..."

"Modern arguments for a narrower scope of “subject to [U.S.] jurisdiction” began with the 1985 book by Peter Schuck and Rogers Smith, Citizenship Without Consent.76 Adopting what they called a “consensual” position, Schuck and Smith argued that the Citizenship Clause should be read to extend citizenship only to U.S.-born children of parents who (if not themselves citizens) had become part of the U.S. political community as lawful permanent residents.77 Their term “consensual” invoked the proposition that the sovereign should consent to the person’s integration into U.S. society by admission of the parents as lawful permanent residents. Thus, while accepting the result in Wong Kim Ark, their view excluded from citizenship both children of temporary visitors and children of persons not lawfully resident."

"Professor John Eastman, for example, has expressly argued that Wong Kim Ark was wrongly decided: Justice Gray [in Wong Kim Ark] appears not to have appreciated the distinction between partial, territorial jurisdiction, which subjects all who are present within the territory of a sovereign to the jurisdiction of its laws, and complete, political jurisdiction, which additionally requires allegiance to the sovereign. . . . . . . . . . Justice Gray simply failed to appreciate . . . that there is a difference between territorial jurisdiction and the more complete, allegiance-obliging jurisdiction that the Fourteenth Amendment codified.80 Thus, Professor Eastman argues that the extent of constitutional citizenship should be restored to what the “drafters [of the Fourteenth Amendment] actually intended, that only a complete jurisdiction, of the kind that brings with it a total and exclusive allegiance, is sufficient to qualify for the grant of citizenship to which the people of the United States actually consented."

"The most common meaning of “jurisdiction” is associated with courts, meaning a court’s power over a case or a litigant.146 That meaning fits poorly with the Citizenship Clause, which invokes the jurisdiction of the United States." (This is why you cannot use the modern definition found in a dictionary in this debate/discussion)

"Thus in Wheaton’s terms, “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States meant under U.S. sovereign authority."

"A sovereign had almost complete authority over (almost) every person and thing within its territory, but authority over almost nothing outside its territory except the actions of its own citizens."

"The equation of “jurisdiction” with “sovereign authority” in this passage is unmistakable—amounting to the unsurprising proposition that visitors to a country. It is true that aliens (and typically their U.S.-born children) also owed allegiance to a foreign sovereign even while in the United States. As discussed, international law recognized the authority of sovereigns to govern activities of their citizens/ subjects abroad. Moreover, many nations claimed the allegiance of foreign-born children of their citizens/subjects, either because the nation followed the European rule of jus sanguinis or because (like Britain) the nation had special statutory rules for subjects’ foreign-born children.196 Thus, U.S.-born children of nondiplomat aliens were not subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States; they were subject to overlapping jurisdiction to the extent they were citizens/subjects of one sovereign in the territory of another. ordinarily must obey that country’s laws and courts while within its territory."








Amber
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@whiteflame
I can respect your take/opinion on the matter, and I certainly appreciate your candor as well. 
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@Greyparrot
@whiteflame
@ADreamOfLiberty
Thank you for your thoughtful contributions rising above the resident trolls of this forum. 
Amber
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@IwantRooseveltagain
So Amber is a racist?
I haven't seen much she has said other than this, so it's hard to say. The argument is certainly based in racism, but she could have just been taking in by stupid stuff on facebook and not realize that. 
Observing a legal argument =/= racism.

You have to PROVE it is "stupid stuff," claiming it doesn't cut it.

And a MAGA MORON.
seems pretty pro-trump and the argument in this post is quite dumb....
Again, observing constitutional legal argument=/= either pro-Trump or the post being "quite dumb."

These empty claims just goes to show you and IWRA are sharing your single digit IQs in order to try and make it a double digit, but it is falling far short.

That’s right, not all Trump supporters are racists, but all racists are big, big, MAGA MORON Trump supporters.
I wonder if there are any racists who don't support trump. I doubt it, but i suppose it's possible. 

I invite you to read my reply here to another user of the group:


At least I take the personal responsibility to do some personal research on the subject before sticking my foot in my mouth like you and IWRA.
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@FLRW
You all don't think Amber is Don Jr. , do you?
Paranoid much? 
An intelligent woman scares you so much you have to be so paranoid to assert I’m actually a previous member of your Motley Crue?

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Well, given all the detailed legal research I took upon myself to properly debate/discuss this issue, I don’t foresee any equally legitimate responses this evening. That being said, I doubt I will in a day or two either. So I will check back in a few days and see if there are any actual intelligent (researched) responses to my argued position. 

Amber 
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MAGA is terrified of Kamala.  

I'm not a big fan myself, but you gotta love the way she's making the white supremacists cry like babies.
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Who is smarter Donald J Harris or Donald J Trump?

Donald J Harris is Professor of Economics, Emeritus. Emeritus faculty at Stanford University.

Donald J Trump was the stupidest student one of his professors ever had.
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@FLRW
Donald J Trump was the stupidest student one of his professors ever had.
Trump was also the dumbest president USA ever had. At least the others had enough brain to hide their racism, crimes and desire for wealth.
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@Best.Korea

Well, Trump's Christian base does like foreign sex workers as First Ladies.
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@FLRW
@Sidewalker
Best.Korea too.

Didn't think any of you would have anything remotely intelligent to say in response to my well-researched post #80

Maybe @Casey_Risk will have something to rebut with worthy of reading and replying to. 

One can only hope.