Villainous Villains DP1

Author: Lunatic

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#151
AustinL0926
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@ILikePie5
I'm not following your case. He initially didn't want Wylted to claim, then changed his mind when he thought that Wylted claiming would provide more expected value to town (in the form of Wylted being incompetent if he's scum). What's the contradiction there?
#152
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@Barney
Vito, from the book or the movies? And did you preference for the title Don, or was that fed back by the host?
The movies. I sent in "Don Corleone".

#153
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@ILikePie5
You always ask new players about the extent of their past experience with forum mafia. Why didn't you do that with Cerulean?
#154
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nvm post 15 kinda answers that.
#155
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@AustinL0926
I'm not following your case. He initially didn't want Wylted to claim, then changed his mind when he thought that Wylted claiming would provide more expected value to town (in the form of Wylted being incompetent if he's scum). What's the contradiction there?
Post 121, he says that he doesn’t support the Wylted train because it’s going to help scum get identify PRs, which doesn’t make sense at all unless he knows Wylted is town. And then he basically lied when he said “oh I thought you meant fake character claiming instead of fake role claiming” when he knew that I was talking exactly about role claiming.
#156
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@AustinL0926
You always ask new players about the extent of their past experience with forum mafia. Why didn't you do that with Cerulean?
JoeBob, I think already did that, plus I knew he was from MafiaUniverse cause I asked him in Discord.
#157
Cerulean
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Morning, all. I'll be hanging around to backread for a little while here.

#158
Mharman
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Ok so I’m an idiot and completely misread the sentence where you said full claim. I also forgot that the Billy Mitchell claim was Wylted’s while we were talking about it.

I don’t know how I managed to do that (imma just blame the fact that I was online at 1am), but you can see this when I say:
As for the Wylted train, I don't think it's that great of an idea to get his claim. All that's going to do is help scum sort out who has the stronger PRs from the weaker ones. Sure, they'd be doing a lot of guesswork, but I'll be educated guesswork, and I'm not comfortable giving them more information to work with.
… implying that I am fearful that scum might use Wylted’s character claim to figure out if he has a strong or weak PR. 

My bad.

By the way, I’m still not convinced on getting a full claim from Wylted. I never said “we should never get claims”… that’s putting words into my mouth. If we have a massive FOS on someone, that’s fair. Otherwise, I’m not a fan of this claim hunting spree you’re tryna go on.

I don’t have an FOS in Wylted. I never said I was down for Wylted’s claim or that I changed my mind. All I said was that Wylted sucking at role claiming was a compelling point, at that it made me think about it.

However I’ve decided I’m not going to pursue him. For one, I don’t trust Pie. Two, in giving his claim out so easily, he gave scum some information already… a full claim would make things way easier on them.
#159
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
@AustinL0926
^^^
#160
Mharman
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@ILikePie5
Post 121, he says that he doesn’t support the Wylted train because it’s going to help scum get identify PRs, which doesn’t make sense at all unless he knows Wylted is town.
I don’t know who’s what for sure. But I do townread him. If I think someone is town, why the hell should I push for a full claim on him?
#161
Cerulean
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@AustinL0926
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11413/posts/461107 feels like it should be alignment indicative for Mhar. I'll come back to it.

I'll play under the assumption that we have 8 Town, 2 Mafia, 1 3P, since people have said that Lunatic's host meta includes 3Ps with a reasonable frequency... and also because this:
I think 9-2 and 8-3 are town sides and scumsided respectively.
sounds about right.

I'm not full claiming.
You’ll full claim at L-1, which I will get you to
I think I mildly townread this overconfidence.

My initial reaction would be to give you a townread for giving that up with no pressure, since it "looks" so bad, but I'm wary of a "refuge in audacity" bluff. You, or someone else, can correct me if this is wrong, but from the few posts I've seen from you so far, you strike me as someone who might try to pull that sort of strategy off.
Can you explain why you think I would have the kind of playstyle to try this?
It's admittedly not a strong opinion, but you appear relatively competent and Owen mentioned this:
He claimed he had a power to determine scum from three people, so mechanical. I didn't follow up after I was lynched but he was lying for some reason. 
If you're willing to play like that as a villager it wouldn't surprise me if you might also try to pull an audacious "a Mafia wouldn't do that" play as Mafia.

(also, to be clear, because I might subconsciously swap up language in a later post- I use "Mafia" and "Wolf" and "Scum" interchangeably)
#162
Cerulean
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@Mharman
Post 121, he says that he doesn’t support the Wylted train because it’s going to help scum get identify PRs, which doesn’t make sense at all unless he knows Wylted is town.
I don’t know who’s what for sure. But I do townread him. If I think someone is town, why the hell should I push for a full claim on him?
The problem is that you stated it like a fact, which can make it look like TMI. Especially since as of Post 117, you only had Wylted as "Ever so Slight Town." Did something change in the 15 minutes between 117 and 121, or are you that cautious with claims that even someone you very slightly townread is someone you think shouldn't claim?
#163
Cerulean
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Anyway, regarding characters: My character is the main character of a book series/tv series, both of which came out after 2000. I think that's about detailed enough for now.
#164
Owen_T
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@Earth
@Savant
Are you guys going to be active today?

#165
Cerulean
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@ILikePie5
I vaguely suspect that Pie vs. Mhar might be a villager-villager fight. It feels like they're both talking past and misunderstanding each other a bit.

B) Him not wanting people to full claim is 100% at odds with his past gameplay.
Do you mind being a little more detailed about this, Pie? I understand the gist of it, but are you specifically saying that the town version of Mharman frequently angles for full claims on people, even those he townreads, on Day 1? Or something else? My worry here is that you might be comparing apples and oranges of different contexts.
#166
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@Owen_T
Where are you at with this game right now, Owen? A lot of your recent posts have been about people's activity levels. Do you have any strong alignment-related thoughts on anyone at the moment? Any posts that stick out to you?

I want you to be at least somewhat active here because if you're town, you seem like you're likely to get mislynched. No offense intended, it's just that I can see you got mislynched Day 1 in the Ace Attorney game and Mhar has already put pressure on you this game.
#167
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@Cerulean
Little busy now. I'll get back to you later
#168
JoeBob
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@Owen_T
Is Earth usually this inactive? I know that Savant isn't.
Earth usually is yea.
#169
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I’d prefer to go after savant in a couple hours if he still not on for a character claim, or full claim.
#170
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@Cerulean
I think I have a good understanding of the game now but please correct me if I'm saying something idiotic.

Town read:

Cerulean - It's obvious your making legit efforts to scum hunt. There are also things like this:
I vaguely suspect that Pie vs. Mhar might be a villager-villager fight. It feels like they're both talking past and misunderstanding each other a bit.
If you were mafia, you could have used that to your advantage instead of deescalating it.


Slight Town:

Mharman - His speculation about the game seems like a genuine effort to scum hunt, and refusal to claim seems like a town tell.

Joe Bob - His confidence in not claiming in the very beginning also seems like a slight town tell.

_____________________

I don't read any one as scummy. It could just be my general ineptness at this game, but it feels like the only thing we have to go off of is characters, and because those were picked by the players they and are all villains, they obviously don't have much value if any value.
#171
ILikePie5
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@WyIted
@JoeBob
@Casey_Risk
@Owen_T
@Cerulean
Ok so I’m an idiot and completely misread the sentence where you said full claim. I also forgot that the Billy Mitchell claim was Wylted’s while we were talking about it.

I don’t know how I managed to do that (imma just blame the fact that I was online at 1am), but you can see this when I say:
As for the Wylted train, I don't think it's that great of an idea to get his claim. All that's going to do is help scum sort out who has the stronger PRs from the weaker ones. Sure, they'd be doing a lot of guesswork, but I'll be educated guesswork, and I'm not comfortable giving them more information to work with.
… implying that I am fearful that scum might use Wylted’s character claim to figure out if he has a strong or weak PR. 
This is a lie. Mharman said this in the exact same post:

I want more depth on your reasoning as to why you think we should get his claim. Why is his character strange to you? And what's to stop Wylted from having a good fake claim in this game, where it can be anything that interests him? Do you really think he's so bad at fake claiming that he would fail to come up with a good one here? Are there any additional reasons to get his claim that you have in mind?
So Mharman did know that Wylted had already character claimed at that point and that I was asking for a role claim from Wylted.

By the way, I’m still not convinced on getting a full claim from Wylted. I never said “we should never get claims”… that’s putting words into my mouth. If we have a massive FOS on someone, that’s fair. Otherwise, I’m not a fan of this claim hunting spree you’re tryna go on.
But Mharman never said that he doesn’t want to pursue Wylted because he slight town read him.  He said he doesn’t want to pursue Wylted because it will help scum sort out who has the stronger PRs from the weaker ones, which implies that Mharman knew Wylted was town to begin with.



#172
ILikePie5
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@Mharman
I don’t know who’s what for sure. But I do townread him. If I think someone is town, why the hell should I push for a full claim on him?
You only slight townread him at that point, but were confident that him claiming would help scum determine who the strong and weak PRs are?
#173
ILikePie5
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Casey - Fiction
Cerulean - Fiction, Male, Book/TV, 2000
JoeBob - Fiction
Pie - Fiction, Male, Movie, 2009
Wylted - Real, Male, Birth, 1965 - Billy Mitchell
Owen - Real, Male, Birth, 1926
Austin - Fiction, Male, Book/Movie, 1972 - Don Corleone
Mharman - Real
Barney
Earth
Savant

#174
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@Cerulean
Do you mind being a little more detailed about this, Pie? I understand the gist of it, but are you specifically saying that the town version of Mharman frequently angles for full claims on people, even those he townreads, on Day 1? Or something else? My worry here is that you might be comparing apples and oranges of different contexts.
Forget about getting claims from people. He was fine lynching his top townread (Owen) last game DP1 just to get information for the next DP, which is fine cause it was last minute ig, but directly contradicts the cautious nature he’s presenting here. He also just blatantly lied about not knowing that Wylted had already claimed.
#175
Owen_T
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Question.

Everyone seem really interested in figuring out people's roles. since we're all villains, does it really matter?
#176
Owen_T
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Sorry if thats a stupid question
#177
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@Owen_T
The idea behind character claiming is giving us an idea of what each player might be capable of doing. For instance, knowing that Austin's character is a Mafia boss might not inherently make Austin evil-aligned, but it might imply that if he is evil, he could be investigated as good regardless (since that's the "Godfather" role type).

I initially thought the Billy Mitchell claim would have Veteran or some sort of Killing charges, since he was a military individual, but the reveal that the Billy Mitchell chosen was a gamer instead has me confused.



By the way, is there a particular reason why you believe this:
refusal to claim seems like a town tell.
Since it's the basis for 2 of your town reads.
#178
JoeBob
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Casey - Fiction
Cerulean - Fiction, Male, Book/TV, 2000
JoeBob - Fiction, Male, Born 1000 years ago,
Pie - Fiction, Male, Movie, 2009
Wylted - Real, Male, Birth, 1965 - Billy Mitchell
Owen - Real, Male, Birth, 1926
Austin - Fiction, Male, Book/Movie, 1972 - Don Corleone
Mharman - Real
Barney
Earth
Savant

#179
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@Savant
So Pie has latched on to Mharman pretty hard here. Knowing Pie, this is typical of both his town play and his mafia play, so I can't really make anything of it either way. I'm going to have to reread the discussion, but right now I feel the same way as Cerulean -- this might just be a town v. town fight. I saw one of those happen last game and it ended up losing the town the whole game. 

For now, I'm going to VTL Savant for activity.
#180
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@Savant
I agree with Casey I'll also VTL Savant for activity but I'll remove it if he shows up.