What pro lifers believe on abortion

Author: TheUnderdog

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@TheUnderdog
So change the law.  Or at least advocate for changing the law.

the point here isn't "what the law says"

the point here is

"the law" is itself set by the sovereign of the physical territory

and each individual human

has natural sovereignty

over everything that happens inside their own body

self-sovereign
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@TheUnderdog
No because it violates the LUSHOOTY ethos because you are significantly harming the taxpayer to get universal healthcare.
ok

then without available healthcare

your 1% chance of significant harm (and or death) to the mother and or child

seems plausible

so, ostensibly you believe abortion should be legal for women without healthcare
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@Wylted

I’m trying to tag you, but it’s not working.


Your still a man if you get a vasectomy, but a lesser one
Why?  You can raw dog and not worry about pregnancy.  What’s more masculine than raw dogging?

Being a woman is a much higher honor than being a man.
You sound like a femenist when you say this.  Femenists believe in gender supremacy.
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@3RU7AL
and each individual human

has natural sovereignty

over everything that happens inside their own body

self-sovereign
This is only true if they aren’t harming others to a significant extent.  Like, bodily autonomy says you can smoke tobacco, but you can’t rob someone else because of your bodily autonomy desire to smoke tobacco.

so, ostensibly you believe abortion should be legal for women without healthcare
I would say abortion should not be legal unless there is a 1% chance or higher the woman dies without an abortion.  I believe it’s plausible an uninsured  pregnant woman has a less than 1% chance of dying without an abortion.
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@TheUnderdog
but you can’t rob someone else because of

robbing someone has nothing to do with smoking

i feel like you're leaving something out that you think connects the two
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@TheUnderdog
I believe it’s plausible an uninsured  pregnant woman has a less than 1% chance of dying without an abortion.

  • Every day in 2020, almost 800 women died from preventable causes related to pregnancy and childbirth.
  • A maternal death occurred almost every two minutes in 2020.

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@TheUnderdog
This is only true if they aren’t harming others to a significant extent.
a blob of cells is not a human
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@3RU7AL
robbing someone has nothing to do with smoking
Robbing someone because of your tobacco addiction is needed to satisfy your bodily autonomy to smoke if you can’t afford tobacco.  This doesn’t mean theft for tobacco should be legalized.
Every day in 2020, almost 800 women died from preventable causes related to pregnancy and childbirth.
This is a global statistic, not a U.S. statistic.  In the US, I read somewhere that out of 4 million births, 800 of them result in death a year.  This is .02% chance of death on average.

a blob of cells is not a human

“Life starts with a zygote, which is formed by the fusion of a haploid sperm and egg.”
“The human life cycle, from zygote to adult organism”.  If it was believed that a human life starts at any other point (10 weeks into pregnancy as an example), the quote would say, “The human life cycle, from 10 weeks into pregnancy to adult organism”

So a zygote is a human being.

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@TheUnderdog
You're in a conflicted position supporting homosexuality while not being for abortion.
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@TheUnderdog
Robbing someone because of your tobacco addiction is needed to satisfy your bodily autonomy to smoke if you can’t afford tobacco.  This doesn’t mean theft for tobacco should be legalized.

who are you arguing with here ?

nobody thinks bodily autonomy means you can rob force or coerce another citizen

how does this relate to abortion ?
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@TheUnderdog
Every day in 2020, almost 800 women died from preventable causes related to pregnancy and childbirth.
This is a global statistic, not a U.S. statistic.  In the US, I read somewhere that out of 4 million births, 800 of them result in death a year.  This is .02% chance of death on average.

do you think abortion should only be a crime in the united states

or do you think it should be a crime everywhere ?

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@TheUnderdog
So a zygote is a human being.

Preterm death of the human conceptus (zygote) is common. A consistent biphasic pattern in the rate of loss from biochemical pregnancy detection to term suggests that most wastage occurs prior to clinical recognition. After simple adjustments for varying methods, existing data show that at least 73% of natural single conceptions have no real chance of surviving 6 weeks of gestation.




i guess it's time for you to ramp up your global murder investigation force
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@Mall
Or I just have the LUSHOOTY ethos (Liberty Unless Significantly Harming Others Or Too Young).  Abortion actually harms someone else to a significant extent (a homicidal extent).  Homosexuality doesn't.

I'm LUSHOOTY; not a theocrat.
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@3RU7AL
who are you arguing with here ?

nobody thinks bodily autonomy means you can rob force or coerce another citizen
Whether or not they are a Citizen is irrelevant.  Just like I shouldn't be allowed to legally rape an undocumented immigrant.  Non-citizens should have the right to victimless life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  You don't get to steal from others because of your bodily autonomy (whether it's stealing $8 for a pack of tobacco or stealing someone's life for an abortion).

do you think abortion should only be a crime in the united states

or do you think it should be a crime everywhere ?
I would say everywhere.  

368,451 births happen each day (How many births are per day worldwide - Search (bing.com)).  Assuming 800 of them end in death, that is a maternal death rate of about 0.217%.  This is pretty much all solved with a culture of vasectomies; ie men not having sex until they get a vasectomy and get it doctor approved.

After simple adjustments for varying methods, existing data show that at least 73% of natural single conceptions have no real chance of surviving 6 weeks of gestation.
Well those are accidents; and accidents should not be tried as the same action intentionally.  This is why manslaughter is tried differently than murder.  I think fetal unintentional homicide should be legal, but fetal intentional homicide should be punished with community service.
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@TheUnderdog
Well those are accidents; and accidents should not be tried as the same action intentionally.  This is why manslaughter is tried differently than murder.  I think fetal unintentional homicide should be legal, but fetal intentional homicide should be punished with community service.
(IFF) zygote = human citizen (THEN) death of zygote = either a murder or manslaughter conviction

if someone accidentally kills one of their children

they still get charged with a crime

you can't have a different standard

for zygotes

if you want to give them full human rights
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@TheUnderdog
Well those are accidents; and accidents should not be tried as the same action intentionally.  This is why manslaughter is tried differently than murder.  I think fetal unintentional homicide should be legal, but fetal intentional homicide should be punished with community service.

US women are being jailed for having miscarriages

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@TheUnderdog
No because it violates the LUSHOOTY ethos because you are significantly harming the taxpayer to get universal healthcare.
does the catastrophic harm to the zygote outweigh the "harm" caused by a LESS THAN 1% increase in taxation ?
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@TheUnderdog
Homosexuality does harm the population as abortion.
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@Mall
Homosexuality does harm the population as abortion.

(1) how does homosexuality harm "the population" ?

(2) how does abortion harm "the population" ?
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@3RU7AL
you can't have a different standard

for zygotes
You do have to factor in bodily autonomy and the fact that the person doing the bad action is in pain, which is why the punishment should be less.  I think the punishment for a homeless person stealing shouldn’t be as bad as Bill Gates stealing.  The former is desperate; the ladder isn’t.  The former you can have do community service and that pays off their debt; the ladder is a sadist and should return the money in addition to also getting whipped.  If Bill Gates steals and he goes to trial over it, then he should feel pain; this shouldn’t apply to the person who steals out of desperation.  The poor person that steals should do community service and once done with that (since they stole due to being broke), they should get a government job so they aren’t poor anymore.  You can rehabilitate a poor person that steals; but not a rich person that steals since the poor person is more desperate.

US women are being jailed for having miscarriages
That happened and it shouldn’t have happened.  If it was a genuine accident, then there shouldn’t be a penalty as most women have had zygotes die in them accidentally.

does the catastrophic harm to the zygote outweigh the "harm" caused by a LESS THAN 1% increase in taxation ?
It would if the increase in taxation was 1% due to UHC.  The reality is UHC would cost more than a 1% increase in taxation.  My estimation is about 50% increase.  But having the taxpayer take care of the kid if the woman can’t afford it would be akin to the taxpayer funding the tobacco costs of someone who chose to smoke.


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@Mall
Homosexuality does harm the population as abortion.
How does homosexuality harm other non consenting people to a significant extent?
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@TheUnderdog
If it was a genuine accident,
right but it's going to take a lot of investigators to determine that one really big IF
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@3RU7AL
That’s why I would want to dramatically expand the number of planned parenthood clinics despite being anti abortion so women get the abortions done safely.  They can then be registered for community service as a penalty (along with the dude that got them pregnant).  Women would rather do the community service than get an abortion that is not safe for the mother.
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@TheUnderdog
does the catastrophic harm to the zygote outweigh the "harm" caused by a LESS THAN 1% increase in taxation ?
It would if the increase in taxation was 1% due to UHC.  The reality is UHC would cost more than a 1% increase in taxation.  My estimation is about 50% increase.  But having the taxpayer take care of the kid if the woman can’t afford it would be akin to the taxpayer funding the tobacco costs of someone who chose to smoke.
ok,

the suggestion was universal healthcare for pregnancy only

which would likely be below that 1% tax increase

HOWEVER,

universal healthcare for everything might increase taxes 50%

but right now i'm paying just as much for insurance as i am paying for rent

so, it seems reasonable to me that if we implemented universal healthcare, my TOTAL EXPENDITURE would be at least flat if not DECREASE
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@3RU7AL
the suggestion was universal healthcare for pregnancy only
If we give UHC for pregnancy, then we have to give UHC unconditionally.

but right now i'm paying just as much for insurance as i am paying for rent
This would be roughly the same with UHC as the profit margin from insurance companies is between 3-10%; the alternative is a bunch of buerocratic waste (usually more than 10%).


so, it seems reasonable to me that if we implemented universal healthcare, my TOTAL EXPENDITURE would be at least flat if not DECREASE
Usually, the reason people say this is they use the following premise/conclusion argument:

P1: Europe has better health outcomes (defined as the sum of cheaper health costs and higher life expectancy) than the US.
P2: Europe does UHC and America doesn’t.
C1: Therefore, UHC produces better health outcomes.

There are omitted variables as to why P1 is correct.  Europe is built for people; America is built for cars.  Europeans get way more walking done (aka exercise) than Americans do simply because they have to.  I would assume the reason Europe has better health outcomes than America is simply because Europeans have to get way more exercise than Americans do on average; their cities are significantly more walkable.
Mall
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@TheUnderdog
"How does homosexuality harm other non consenting people to a significant extent?"

How does it harm non consenting  people or the non consenting  population?

To a significant extent. I take it that you already agree that it harms to a lesser extent.

Well to the non consenting  which includes infants, children, young people, middle aged and even beyond over to those in the penitentiary prisons is pretty much a significant extent.

Interesting unexpected question.


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@3RU7AL
Really straightforward.

The human population is stunted or in compromise each abortion and every manipulated birth controlled sexual action basically.

This also includes individual lifestyle choices pertaining to health and well being.
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Abortion doesn't kill/murder a child 

One has to be born to be recognized as a human being, a person, a child, a teenager, an adult. 
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@Mall
To a significant extent. I take it that you already agree that it harms to a lesser extent.
I don't even think homosexuality harms any non consenting person to any detectable extent.  But even if it's a small extent, campfires harm others to a slight extent by forcing people to breath in smoke for a campfire they did not consent to.  Even if 100 m away from the campfire, campfire smoke still at least nominally negatively impacts others.  This doesn't justify banning campfires in an area that has no plausible chance of forest fires.

The extent of harm must be significant.

Well to the non consenting  which includes infants, children, young people, middle aged and even beyond over to those in the penitentiary prisons is pretty much a significant extent.
How?  You are using emotional words like, "children", "young people" but you aren't explaining how homosexuality always causes significant harm to others.
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@TheUnderdog
You asked how does a sexuality harm non consenting people.

Don't we agree that non consensual sexuality is harmful?