definition of "fascism"

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Fascism

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#61
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"Governments almost certainly originated with the need to protect people from conflicts and to provide law and order."
do you think it might be fair to say that the function of a government is to provide

(1) neutral dispute resolution between citizens

(2) protection for citizens from rival groups

(3) responsible management of public spaces and shared resources

in other words

do you think it might be fair to say a government exists to enhance the wellbeing of all citizens ?
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#62
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@3RU7AL

As I said above...


"The function of government varies depending on the economic and social basis of the state being governed.

Government is different under capitalism, socialism and communism,

Which are you asking about?"

Note that until YOU clarify your question,  there can be no clarified answer."


do you think it might be fair to say a government exists to enhance the wellbeing of all citizens ?

NO.
#63
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do you think it might be fair to say a government exists to enhance the wellbeing of all citizens ?

NO.

ok, forget about "capitalism" and "socialism" and "communism" and "fascism" for a brief moment



on what merits

would you evaluate

one type of government

over another ?
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#64
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@3RU7AL
on what merits would you evaluate one type of government over another ?
"You sure ask a lot of questions for a guy from New Jersey "  says Emily Litella. ( A reference to a joke ).

How to evaluate a government?   There are macro and micro judgments.

On a macro level...

How well does a government;

respond to emergencies?
protect from invasion?
manage resources?
maintain infrastructure?
What standards does the government support?
Does the government enhance or inhibit mobility of citizens?

However, on a micro level, the concern really comes down to how the citizenry is impacted by the government.

How much of an individuals earnings are kept with the individual?
How safe does the citizen feel?
Is the citizen's health inhibited or enhanced by the government? ( more along the lines of safe foods and medicines rather than national health care.)

This is not a complete list ....  add to it if you wish.

So now back to how fascism needs socialism as a necessary precursor.






#65
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 the concern really comes down to how the citizenry is impacted

it sounds like you're saying "the government serves the citizens"
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#66
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@3RU7AL
it sounds like you're saying "the government serves the citizens"
That is an inference that you have created. Here is your equivocation...

You asked ....

on what merits would you evaluate one type of government over another ?

You then went from my "how to rate" and inferred  some generalization about  "the government serves the citizens"

To clarify, on a MACRO level, a good government serves all citizens, but not each individual citizen. It works on NATIONAL issues, not personal issues.

On a micro level a good government leaves all  the individual alone.

Again these are generalizations. Any inference you make about what I said or implied should be discussed with me on this forum.
#67
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To clarify, on a MACRO level, a good government serves all citizens, but not each individual citizen.
what percentage do you think qualifies as "good government"

do you think perhaps that serving 90% of citizens is "better government" than serving 51% of citizens ?
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#68
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@3RU7AL
what percentage do you think qualifies as "good government"

do you think perhaps that serving 90% of citizens is "better government" than serving 51% of citizens ?

On a macro level, a good government serves 100% of the citizens in terms mentioned above. It cannot serve 51% or even 90%. Only 100%. Otherwise it is not operating at a macro level.

Government...


protects 100% of the citizenry from invasion
manages resources that affect 100% of the citizenry
maintains infrastructure that affects 100% of the citizenry
supports standards that affect 100% of the citizenry
enhances mobility of  100% of the citizenry while inhibiting no one.


So now back to how fascism needs socialism as a necessary precursor.


#69
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So now back to how fascism needs socialism as a necessary precursor.
managing resources for the benefit of all citizens is the goal of "state-socialism"

manages resources that affect 100% of the citizenry
maintains infrastructure that affects 100% of the citizenry
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#70
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@3RU7AL
Someone once said.....

""state socialism" is almost always a lie. Ostensibly the goal of "state socialism" is to facilitate public-ownership of "capital" (the means of production, factories, farms, laboratories). If a state does not meet this goal of public-ownership, and instead becomes self-serving (filling the pockets of the powerful at the expense of the public)......at that point they are  [Fascists ] ."

Do you agree?




#71
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if roads are privatized, they become capital

if water and power utilities are privatized, they become capital

if public land becomes privatized, it becomes capital
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#72
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@3RU7AL
Do you agree with the statement in #70 above?

Yes you agree?

No you do not degree?

One word answer please.

#73
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Do you agree with the statement in #70 above?

sure, if you add #71
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#74
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@3RU7AL
if roads are privatized, they become capital

if water and power utilities are privatized, they become capital

if public land becomes privatized, it becomes capital

They are capital regardless of ownership. 

"Capital is a broad term for anything that gives its owner value or advantage, " (1)

The owner can be an individual, or a group of individuals, or a socialist state.

Therefore then you do agree that socialism is a necessary  precursor to fascism.





#75
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Therefore then you do agree that socialism is a necessary  precursor to fascism.
we agree that it is the function of government to manage public capital for the benefit of all citizens

do you think it would be fair to say that all governments are implicitly "socialist" ?
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#76
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@3RU7AL
do you think it would be fair to say that all governments are implicitly "socialist" ?
NO.

Your definition of "socialism" is too broad and therefore lacks both utility and sound reasoning.

If the USA builds an Interstate Defense Highway System, that activity in no way defines that country as being a socialist state.
While the expressways make things better for most, if not all citizens, it is a development of infrastructure that many types of governments provide. It does not define them as being "socialist".  Highways have been built in kingdoms, oligarchies, socialist states and even theocracies and communist states.

it is the function of government to manage public capital for the benefit of all citizens

We seem to disagree on the extent to which the term  "public capital" can be applied. Actually, if one defines "public capital" as do you, one is actually saying that if public capital is owned by the government, it is then actually "private capital " ( i.e. it is owned by a single entity ).

Perhaps there is a real definition of "socialism" .... where everything is owned by the state.
All power then rests with the state.
The state then morphs from socialism to either fascism or communism.
And everything is done to benefit, not the citizen, but rather the state.

#77
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Your definition of "socialism" is too broad and therefore lacks both utility and sound reasoning.
"socialism" is a system of ownership - - ownership distributed to the citizens

in the same way "democracy" is supposed to be - - rule by the people

if the government oppresses the citizens and hoards resources

they are not "socialist"

EVEN IF THEY CALL THEMSELVES "SOCIALIST"
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#78
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@3RU7AL
I said ...."Your definition of "socialism" is too broad and therefore lacks both utility and sound reasoning."

You then responded to the claim that your definition was "too broad" by saying.....

socialism" is a system of ownership - - ownership distributed to the citizens

Is there anyone following this forum who agrees that 3ru7al's definition is still "too broad"?

It appears that he is saying that socialism is where   if nobody owns something, then everybody owns  it, but mainly the government owns it  and you don't. (???).












?




#79
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It appears that he is saying that socialism is where   if nobody owns something, then everybody owns  it, but mainly the government owns it  and you don't. (???).
this is not what i'm saying

Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative, or employee.

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#80
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@3RU7AL
From the very site that you have cited.....

" Pure socialism is defined as a system wherein all of the means of production are owned and run by the government....."(1)

It has been shown  above that  socialism is where   if nobody owns something, then everybody owns  it, but mainly the government owns it  and you don't own anything.

Thus all capital rests with the government, and no capital rests with anyone else.

Human nature being what it is, the government has everything and therefore has all power ( i.e. Fascism ).

Therefore socialism is a necessary precursor to fascism.

Now it is up to you 3ru7al to take at least a less idealist view of what socialism is and what it leads to.



(1) Sherman, Howard J.; Zimbalist, Andrew (1988). Comparing Economic Systems: A Political-Economic Approach. 
#81
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@prefix

what you're describing is merely totalitarianism

there are a great number of examples (from that same source) of VARIOUS FORMS of social ownership

the one you're obsessed with is merely one of many - and is in direct conflict with the idea of serving the interests of citizens

Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative, or employee.



open your goddamned mind another inch
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#82
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@3RU7AL
Since you have descended into pejoratives, I win this discussion by default
#83
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Since you have descended into pejoratives, I win this discussion by default
good for you

i guess you are the number one authority on the definition of "socialism"

just ignore everyone on planet earth

who calls themselves a socialist

especially bernie sanders

that guy doesn't know anything

because he hasn't spoken to you yet

and adopted your ultra-perfect number one definition of SOCIALISM = TOTALITARIANISM always every time no exceptions
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#84
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@3RU7AL
"None are so blind as they who will not see". ( author in dispute, but possibly Titleman )

i guess you are the number one authority on the definition of "socialism"
That is an inference without implication.

I gave you many sources in support of my claim. You gave you tube videos of dubious quality.

You are obsessed by socialism as an ideal. Reality is a bit different. Even Marx knew that socialism made for bad government  ( it needed to "wither away").

.your ultra-perfect number one definition of SOCIALISM = TOTALITARIANISM always every time no exceptions

I never put that idea forward. I said socialism is a necessary precursor to FASCISM.   ( socialism morphs into fascism  in Italy, Germany and Argentina )

Here is a source  ...."as an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer.." ( per  "Fascism " By Sheldon Richman )

Perhaps we should debate.


#85
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Even Marx knew that socialism made for bad government  ( it needed to "wither away")
because proper socialism makes most of the functions of a state completely redundant

specifically because most of the functions of a state involve managing public capital
#86
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fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer
please explain exactly what you think this is supposed to mean
#87
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@3RU7AL
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What Italian fascists, Japanese imperialists, and German national socialists defined as "the nation" was all slightly different and they did not care about being self-consistent.
And the Trumpet MAGA Moronic Cult will share some of all three?

...."Fascism is the corporate state, or the corporation as the primary unit or organization of productive activity"...
Financial elite? Yes there exist hierarchies, tho, not always based on what is smartest way forward for humanity and ecological environment that sustains them.

..." which is carefully oversaw by the government "...
Follow the money and Corps. are primary source of money, ---ergo, the Corp. Dragon/Giant--   ergo, government is always the tip of the tail of dragon, being bought to institute laws acceptable to Corp. Dragon, with appearance of what is best for progress  and standard of living for the people.

..." and the people (who are as one) to make sure that the goals are never greedy but always aimed towards the spiritual and material destiny of the collective (the nation-government-race-people uniconcept)."...
Spiritual idealism ---aka moral code---  is like gnats buzzing all around the Corp/Dragon/Giant, attempting  to  steer the Giant/Dragon/Corp. in a direction of of ecological sustainability. 

..." They often made a little room for a small wing of intellectual 'heroes' who would use the power of science, especially "scientific socialism" to help organize the nation-government-race-people uniconcept. "....
Small enough set of heroes ---flys or bees--  that, they have somewhat more effect/power to, on occasion, irritate the Corp/Dragon/Giant.,  than the gnats.

Labor unions ----organized group of gnats--  are an indirect  side effect of Giant/Dragon/Corp. progressing forward always, dragging along the semi-fake government on Giant/Dragon/Corp tail, and the fly/bee science heroes and of course the gnats { sinking middle class },  i.e. greater divide between rich and poor.

The gnats, flys and bees are always with us, yet lack any true collective power to gain any meaningful control of the Corp/Dragon/Giant progression forward, always.

Military { hydrogen bombs international reach  }  > Submarines { hydrogen bombs international reach } > Bomber Jets { hydrogen bombs international reach } > Tactile Missiles { local nuclear arsenal }

Police { security of order that is primary for operation of Corp/Giant/Dragon }, i.e. to ward off gnats in the eyes of a Corp/Giant/Dragon

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#88
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@3RU7AL
Explain exactly what you mean by "proper" socialism.
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#89
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@3RU7AL
"fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer" ( per Sheldon Richman, https://fee.org/articles/fascism-socialism-with-a-capitalist-veneer/).

Now 3ru7al wants this explained......

First off, it is properly sourced from  Richman.

Secondly here is more  from Richman....( emphasis mine)

"Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.)"

 Thirdly, again from Richman...

"Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions." 

Fourthly , again from Richman...

"Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities."




#90
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Explain exactly what you mean by "proper" socialism.
shared ownership where each individual has some meaningful input