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Kindly give an example of a socialist state which has not been subject to a central government.
definition of "fascism"
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We are speaking here of state socialism.Also, employee-owned corporations are more an example of capitalism rather than socialism.
"state socialism" is almost always a lie
ostensibly the goal of "state socialism" is to facilitate public-ownership of "capital" (the means of production, factories, farms, laboratories)
if a state does not meet this goal of public-ownership, and instead becomes self-serving (filling the pockets of the powerful at the expense of the public)
then it doesn't matter if they call themselves "socialists" all day every day
at that point they are TOTALITARIAN OLIGARCHS
NOT SOCIALISTS
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To clarify I am trying to get input on "socialism as a system of governance".
socialism is a framework where the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community as a whole
it is a model of OWNERSHIP (like an employee-owned corporation)
it is not a "system of governance"
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@3RU7AL
Here is a scholarly view .....
"But as an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer....... Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions." (1)
(1) "Fascism " By Sheldon Richman .....www.econlib/org
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through domination of nominally private owners.
private ownership
is the opposite
of socialism
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@3RU7AL
Read again......"fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer" ( sourced above)
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@3RU7AL
private ownershipis the oppositeof socialism
Yes, but good luck explaining that to a person who has no clue what Socialism or Communism is.
They think "government controlling everything" is Socialism, because they havent read anything about Socialism past what they heard on YouTube comments.
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Read again......"fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer" ( sourced above)
totalitarianism is FAKE socialism
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@3RU7AL
As I asked on June 20th....."Kindly give an example of a socialist state which has not been subject to a central government."
Make sure to use REAL WORLD EXAMPLES.
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SOCIALISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT - IT IS A SYSTEM OF OWNERSHIP
CAPITALISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT - IT IS A SYSTEM OF OWNERSHIP
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@3RU7AL
Then give a real world example of a nation that has a socialist form of ownership which does not also have a central seat of power as its form of government.
"Dictionaries and economic texts define socialism as government control and ownership on the means of production, and the eventual abolition of all private business and private property. It’s collectivism, which inevitably leads to totalitarianism -- the total state. State socialism can only be imposed and maintained by a monopoly of force. Ultimately, by the muzzle of a gun. All individualism and individual liberty must be swallowed up by the“benevolent” state. This generally starts by democratic means, thus, the soft-sounding appellation “democratic socialism” to allay our fears. “Heroes” like Hitler were elected. In Germany and elsewhere, democracy was just a temporary means to a dreadful conclusion.Socialism, being an abject failure from the start, must always proceed in this way in order to maintain its total control." (1)
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State socialism
If a state controls the economy but is not in turn democratically controlled by the individuals engaged in economic life, what we have is some form of statism, not socialism
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employee ownership of individual companies is called "market socialism"
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@3RU7AL
" Employee ownership is about capitalism, but a form of capitalism in which {every employee in that business } gets a piece of the pie." (1)
In reality what you call "market socialism' is essentially identical to "stockholder capitalism"
BTW.....still waiting for real world examples of socialist states without centralized governments.
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BTW.....still waiting for real world examples of socialist states without centralized governments.
SOCIALISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT - IT IS A SYSTEM OF OWNERSHIP
CAPITALISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT - IT IS A SYSTEM OF OWNERSHIP
SOCIALISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT - IT IS A SYSTEM OF OWNERSHI
Whether or not it is a form of government, in its execution it relies upon a strong central authority ( i.e. a government ).
To wit "In a socialist system, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government. The government also determines all output and pricing levels and supplies its citizens with everything from food to healthcare." (1)
If that government becomes strong enough, it morphs into fascism.
"That the National Socialists { NAZIs} embraced socialism is factually accurate. Though they did not nationalize to the extent the Leninists wanted, they did nationalize very vital industry in Germany, even if by outright intimidation rather than through the law. " (2)
(1) https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp.....Socialism: History, Theory, Analysis, and Examples of Socialist Countries by Will Kenton.
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What is the true definition of "fascism"?
Whatever the Republican Party supports that the left seems is hate speech.
On some issues, I’m a fascist because on some issues, I’m republican.
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Whether or not it is a form of government,
what is the function of "government" ?
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@3RU7AL
You asked ....
what is the function of "government"
It appears that this has already been answered. ( SEE comment #47 above).
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You asked ....what is the function of "government"It appears that this has already been answered. ( SEE comment #47 above).
WRONG AGAIN.
HERE'S THE TEXT OF POST #47
OCIALISM IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT - IT IS A SYSTEM OF OWNERSHIWhether or not it is a form of government, in its execution it relies upon a strong central authority ( i.e. a government ).To wit "In a socialist system, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government. The government also determines all output and pricing levels and supplies its citizens with everything from food to healthcare." (1)If that government becomes strong enough, it morphs into fascism."That the National Socialists { NAZIs} embraced socialism is factually accurate. Though they did not nationalize to the extent the Leninists wanted, they did nationalize very vital industry in Germany, even if by outright intimidation rather than through the law. " (2)
NOTICE HOW NONE OF THE TEXT HERE (POST#47) DESCRIBES THE FUNCTION OF "GOVERNMENT"
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@3RU7AL
Before you descend more deeply into antagonism, let's turn to dialogue.
In post #47 it clearly states, with source ......"all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government. The government also determines all output and pricing levels and supplies its citizens with everything from food to healthcare."
The phrase "are made" is a function.
The phrase "determines" is a function.
The phrase "supplies" is a function.
Thus it has clearly been shown that socialism is a necessary tenet of fascism.
quod erat demonstrandum.
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forget about "socialism" and "fascism" for a brief moment
what is the function of "government" ?
how would you describe a "properly functioning government" ?
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@3RU7AL
You asked ....
what is the function of "government" ?
The function of government varies depending on the economic and social basis of the state being governed.
Government is different under capitalism, socialism and communism,
Which are you asking about?
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Which are you asking about?
imagine you don't have a government
like maybe some small wild west town
why would anyone choose to start a government ?
what is the most basic advantage of having a government ?
what is the core function you would personally want a government to perform ?
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@3RU7AL
Are you asking after a utopia?
There is no such place, ergo, there is no point in wasting time on it.
The forum question is the definition of fascism IN THERE REAL WORLD.
Hear ye this......
"utopia,
1.
a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
2
: an impractical scheme for social improvement
3
: an imaginary and indefinitely remote place....
There’s quite literally no place like utopia. In 1516, English humanist Sir Thomas More published a book titled Utopia, which compared social and economic conditions in Europe with those of an ideal society on an imaginary island located off the coast of the Americas. More wanted to imply that the perfect conditions on his fictional island could never really exist, so he called it “Utopia,” a name he created by combining the Greek words ou (“not, no”) and topos (“place”). The earliest generic use of utopia was for an imaginary and indefinitely remote place. The current use of utopia, referring to an ideal place or society, was inspired by More’s description of Utopia’s perfection." (1)
Note that above link may not work with older versions of various operating systems
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forget about "utopia" for a brief moment
imagine you don't have a government
like maybe some small wild west town
why would anyone choose to start a government ?
what is the most basic advantage of having a government ?
what is the core function you would personally want a government to perform ?
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@3RU7AL
First you say to forget about utopia, then you ask about utopia when you say...
imagine you don't have a governmentlike maybe some small wild west town
Maybe YOU need to forget utopia, and think in real terms.
why would anyone choose to start a government ?
"Governments almost certainly originated with the need to protect people from conflicts and to provide law and order." (1)
what is the most basic advantage of having a government
"Governments are necessary because they maintain law and order. Laws are necessary for society to function. Life in a society without laws would be unsafe and unpredictable." (2)
what is the core function you would personally want a government to perform ?
This has been asked in #56 above, to wit...
"The function of government varies depending on the economic and social basis of the state being governed.
Government is different under capitalism, socialism and communism,
Which are you asking about?"
Note that until YOU clarify your question, there can be no clarified answer.